- Location
- Yes.
*screaming in faflec*
Voting is closed.
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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Sorry I missed this. Fell asleep super early. Your approach def has the same vibes and had my seal of approval
damn it that's the dragon that no one's returned after seeing twice ain't it?
this is important. probably the largest uplift impact we will have had so far. let's not forget it.
damn these 7path denizens are more violent than I thought, if skill at beating people up wins respect. also frickin jiraiya laying the blame on us, and the poor opsec of the 7path clans.
personal guess. but ninja don't even have chakra quantized yet so that would be a big hindrance. hazou only been able to approximate it with # of substitutions, and that number changes upon replication.
damn ungrateful pangolins, after everything we've done for em.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yes, likely that: multiple views were showing up as distinct entities.
Also, the next few updates need to be talking to Cannai, talking to Ami, and then getting to the Conclave. Can anyone think of any other priorities? I'd like to run the Noburi-Naruto scene as it's short and he's a valuable ally.
- Location
- Yes.
Combat prep; we need to fight off a bunch of assholes by ourselves, or alongside our Dogplomat.
re the tax collection.
since we are taking away the daimyo's earnings (the remaining 5% after ninja's 95% cut). in addition to making sure they are kept honest, we should also figure out how to pay them.
this prevents them from starving. which is both an incentive for them to follow the system, and is uplift.
edit:
we should ask mari if she tried the telescope when the telescope merchant came by and if so if it had better magnification than aburame's.
also we should check if the telescope this leaf ninja has
if aburame glasses are not customized to person. and are the cheap version where one standard design is used for multiple eyesight prescriptions. we could ask naruto to shadow clone with them to distribute shadow clone glasses to people, paid via rent instead of ownership as a cheaper option.
since we are taking away the daimyo's earnings (the remaining 5% after ninja's 95% cut). in addition to making sure they are kept honest, we should also figure out how to pay them.
this prevents them from starving. which is both an incentive for them to follow the system, and is uplift.
edit:
we should ask mari if she tried the telescope when the telescope merchant came by and if so if it had better magnification than aburame's.
also we should check if the telescope this leaf ninja has
is better than ours. also how did they frickin get a telescope before us?
if aburame glasses are not customized to person. and are the cheap version where one standard design is used for multiple eyesight prescriptions. we could ask naruto to shadow clone with them to distribute shadow clone glasses to people, paid via rent instead of ownership as a cheaper option.
talking to spider boss about taking great seal flake. and convincing oro to lay in her web. recreating better great seal replica. preventing akane's mental gymnastics from blowing herself up.
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- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Pay who? The daimyo? Nah. We can meet them know that they can invest their substantial wealth in the villages they prey upon if they want to see a return on investment but quite frankly they're parasites and the system would be better off without them. They don't provide protection or anything else particularly useful to the villages they control AFAIK.
If the inevitable outcome of being a tax collector is to starve to death. Than no one will become a tax collector and the ninja will not get taxes.
Investing in the villages might be an avenue for them to not starve. But we should make sure that that actually works instead of just assuming.
Investing in the villages might be an avenue for them to not starve. But we should make sure that that actually works instead of just assuming.
I have no leg to stand on here because I check the thread intermittently and have arrived right after voting ended. But man oh man do I support this suggestion.
We spend ages trying to write/read symbolism into every minute detail of our interactions with social specs. Even if she doesn't react with revulsion, what message will she think we're trying to send?? And what's the payoff we get if everything goes well.. Ami's mild amusement?
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This is exactly the sort of thing we've been warned not to do with SC. It's playing with the duplication edge cases in a way that has been made explicitly clear is forbidden.
What @faflec said about combat prep, we really need Goo Bombs and Chakdar 2.0 before going. Both are extremely useful
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Let's back up for a second: the daiymo aren't about to make less money. The entire point is that overall tax revenue will grow, not shrink. Their take is presumably a percentage of the taxes collected. For 1-3 years (however long it takes for villages to be able to re-invest the money they're left with and see returns) tax revenue might dip by ~10%: a cut from 95% to 85% of literally everything civilian villages create. If the ruling class can't make a 10% dip to their income work, they're not only financially irresponsible, they're so financially irresponsible that they have no business being in charge of anything, much less tax collection for an entire region.
The actual concern is 'how do we make sure that the daiymo's tax collectors are honest and only collect 85% instead of 95%'. That's potentially worth our time if we have a bright idea, but 'how do we make sure that the daiymo don't starve' is
And, again, I'll note that 'save some for Ami' is not the same as 'force it down her throat' or even 'offer it to Ami'. It's 'put some in a storage seal we could give to her later'. We can vote to destroy it in the next update if folks feel strongly about this.
The actual concern is 'how do we make sure that the daiymo's tax collectors are honest and only collect 85% instead of 95%'. That's potentially worth our time if we have a bright idea, but 'how do we make sure that the daiymo don't starve' is
- Not an actual problem because they're already rich as fuck.
- Not our problem because if tax collection becomes economically nonviable the Tower will get involved.
- Well within the purview of the MARI to handle.
- Far too micro to be of interest to us.
Wait, we do? I think we've generally been very straightforward. We try to clearly communicate our messages by incorporating them into the settings/gifts/etc., but AFAIK we don't communicate layered or hidden messages. We certainly aren't playing the game on her level. If noted social spec Mori Ami hasn't figured out that if she's unclear as to our intentions she can just ask us then that's a her problem and not an us problem.
And, again, I'll note that 'save some for Ami' is not the same as 'force it down her throat' or even 'offer it to Ami'. It's 'put some in a storage seal we could give to her later'. We can vote to destroy it in the next update if folks feel strongly about this.
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I disagree. I think we've more been warned against investigating cases that the QMs have to think of answers for. This case is simple with an obvious answer, duplicating glasses just works.
My take was they take everything past subsistence, after the ninja take their cut. I do think they should transition to instead taking a set cut, or a set percentage. Which is what I was referring to by salary
Edit:
If tax collection becomes non-viable. The tower may just scrap the entire experiment.
Presumably the reason hazou is thinking about this himself. Is because he doesn't want to leave it to MARI
Edit2:
Being rich merely delays but does not prevent starving. If you have no revenue streams.
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- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Def agree with this but think it is just a subset of the larger goal of the destruction or reimagining of the village system as a whole
Is this an actual problem? Pay a Yamanaka genin 1000 ryo to mindscan them and torture a few of the worst offenders to death. The rest of them will fall in line fast enough.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ah. That's an incorrect interpretation. Emphasis below.
So, Province A is projected, by Leaf, to have produced goods etc. such that if Leaf went and levied taxes at whatever rate, Leaf would take in 1 million ryo.
In previous years, Leaf would have sold a daiymo the right to collect those taxes for 950k ryo. The daiymo collects ~1 million ryo and therefore makes 50k.
This year, the production of Province A stays the same, but Leaf now wants to collect 10% less money: 900k ryo. We probably cut the daiymo the same deal: we sell them the rights to collect those taxes for 850k, so if they collect taxes honestly, their actual income is unchanged. However, they could very easily claim to the villagers that the tax rate is unchanged, collect 1 million ryo, and instead reap a profit of 150k ryo.
The concern is how to stop them from doing that given that they have effectively absolute control over the individuals who collect the tax. If they're honest, they're literally unaffected, but they have plenty of incentives to be dishonest.
I think that we should make it known that random audits will occur and anyone found to have taken advantage of the villagers whose tax rights they purchased will be stripped of their daiymoship (daiymohood?) and then tried and convicted of treason. Following this, they'll be paraded around the provinces both to send a warning to other daiymos and to educate civilians on the new tax laws, and then executed.
I'd recommend also confiscating all of their property, bonus for distributing it back to those harmed, but that might not be feasible. Nothing like potentially leaving your wife and kids destitute to discourage cheating.
It might also be more impactful to execute them and then parade them around, but YMMV.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I suspect that there are already procedures in place to deal with shitty daiymo; whatever punishment falls under 'treason' is probably pretty bad.
@FaintlySorcerous
I'm still unconvinced by your interpretation. I'll elaborate more later
Also decent chance villagers hide their grain from tax collectors. if we do audits we might uncover villagers hiding taxes which would be awkward
I'm still unconvinced by your interpretation. I'll elaborate more later
Also decent chance villagers hide their grain from tax collectors. if we do audits we might uncover villagers hiding taxes which would be awkward
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Yup, I see this as another Youthsuit incident and hope Ami is understanding of this faux pas.
So obviously the Enma stuff has more immediate impact to us, but def don't want this to be overlooked:
This is bad, right? This is a dragon that through just seeing it, enticed Ruri to want to see it, not just in the moment, but long lasting enough that it seems like shes still trying to angle to get back to see it more. This is something we will want to keep in mind not just as we make preparations to fight it, but also if we interact with her further, and in regards to who is around when fighting dragons.
This is bad, right? This is a dragon that through just seeing it, enticed Ruri to want to see it, not just in the moment, but long lasting enough that it seems like shes still trying to angle to get back to see it more. This is something we will want to keep in mind not just as we make preparations to fight it, but also if we interact with her further, and in regards to who is around when fighting dragons.
- Location
- Pacific standard
That's a great question. And it's actually a fulcrum of how we should approach the entire event.
Either we try to get through with no seals, and show contrition, or we double down. Hazō is an armsdealer, someone most people have a reason to dislike, and he's also desperately trying to stop the end of the world. TN 70 goo bombs on a mars stack definitely sound like the way to go.
We need to go the double down route, because that's where our investiture has gone. If we'd been bumping our social stats then maybe I can see it, but as is our social stats can barely support one important social role in a scene, and we'll need a loooooooot at the conclave.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
IIRC, the Hornet scouts who found that one could only ever describe it as "beautiful," and (again, iirc) not a single Hornet ever survived seeing the "beautiful" dragon twice.
- Location
- Pacific standard
"Are you fucking kidding me Enma? I'm a research sealmaster, the get of Jiraiya. You know as well as I do that the best way for me to impact this war is behind my brush - you're letting your pride endanger critical resources. "Allergic to doing things myself"? You promised you'd look into the dragons of your own initiative. Then I killed one, and you did nothing. Then I met up with a group of refugees on Archaeopteryx, who despite having ample reason to kill me at any cost instead decided to assist with this existential threat, while you did nothing. Then your summoner asks you to check in on things from his side? For an existential threat on yours? That's enough for you to come down here and harass me for not doing enough?
I'm sorry, do I need to hold your hand more?"
Hazō barely finished his last sentence around the hole in his chest, but he died happy.
- Location
- USA
Close. The main difference is that Leaf's rate is based on the expected surplus.
Hypothetically, suppose Province A has 100 civilians, each of whom make 10,000 ryō of surplus every year. Leaf then says that Province A should generate 1,000,000 ryō of surplus per year. Leaf then sells the local daimyo a contract to administer the land and collect taxes from it. Leaf sets its tax rate at 95%, so it sells the contract for 950,000 ryō. The daimyo then has the right to do essentially whatever they want within Province A for a year, so long as they obey the orders of any Hidden Leaf ninja and don't conspire against the interests of Hidden Leaf.
Typically, the daimyo would then collect 990,000 ryō of taxes and put 950,000 ryō towards buying the next year's contract. The daimyo saves 40,000 ryō for their own living expenses (buying their essential goods and services, paying soldiers, tax collectors, servants, etc), and each of the 100 civilians in Province A keeps 100 ryō after surplus.
In a good year, Province A might generate 1,300,000 ryō of surplus, in which case the daimyo may collect 1,200,000 ryō, leaving 1,000 ryō per civilian after surplus and enriching the daimyo by 250,000 ryō.
In a bad year, Province A might generate 700,000 ryō of surplus. The daimyo would then collect all of it, and to buy the next year's contract, he would need to pay 250,000 ryō from his own coffers.
This system has a few benefits for Leaf:
- Leaf has to do basically nothing. They sell the contract, they earn their money, then the nitty-gritty is handled by someone else. Leaf doesn't need to administer to the land, make laws, or collect taxes.
- Leaf doesn't have to assess or collect taxes in kind. Instead of having to figure out what every local trade good is worth, they can delegate the issue of turning local goods into gold to the daimyo.
- Leaf retains formal ownership of the land. There is no legal ambiguity about who is in charge -- it's exclusively Leaf that is deputizing the daimyo with parts of their land.
- Leaf is insulated against bad harvests. Even in bad years, Leaf retains all the money and buying power, and it's the daimyo that are on the hook.
- Leaf can extract further profit from this system, such as when...
- Conducting espionage between daimyo jockeying for good contracts.
- Escorting tax collectors through dangerous land.
- Ousting a daimyo that could not pay the contract fee on behalf of the daimyo that plans to take the land over.
- The daimyo have an incentive to improve their land, as it makes it easier for them to meet the contract fee and increases their income. Of course, eventually Leaf will survey the new situation and increase the expected surplus of the land, meaning that the daimyo have an incentive to continually improve their land.
- In complicated situations such as cities, where the productivity of one civilian is hard to measure (as a merchant's income is not as reliable as a farmer's), Leaf has an easy solution -- have a court of multiple daimyo and auction the contract between them. Each daimyo bids according to their best information, meaning that Leaf doesn't need to investigate deeply in a city to understand how much money will be made. Instead, daimyo trying to acquire the contract will bid above any price that's too low.
- Leaf sees less money that goes to the clans and ninja, but...
- The daimyo of Province A only sees that the contract is discounted to 850,000 ryō instead of 950,000. Without any further details, this changes their 40,000 surplus into a 140,000 surplus, while the civilians stay the same.
- Ideally, the daimyo goes from, (e.g.) 40,000 to 60,000 ryō, while the civilians go from keeping 100 ryō to 900 ryō apiece.
Aside: this is not a word of QM, as this post has not been vetted by the other QMs. I'm happy enough to engage with this, but it's rather draining for the others to get mired in the math and economics, so this is just my best attempt at building out a model. I'm confident that things would change if we actually dove into this in-depth, but that would probably kill a bunch of the other cool stuff we have coming. Instead of getting deep into the math, I would encourage you to focus on the high-level question: When you lower your tax rate, how do you keep your middlemen from pocketing the difference, when the middlemen are primarily paid by letting them pocket the difference?
Daimyo that fail to make their contract fee or that are destructive to the land (which, at the end of the day, belongs to the Hokage and is only being loaned out), have their contract auctioned off to other local daimyo that may want to expand their domain. Usually, the damages are collected from the daimyo's coffers or liquidated possessions.
Daimyo that conspire with other Hidden Villages or missing-nin are killed, generally painfully.
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