It depends on whether you're calling "penetrates your skin deep and heats you from the inside" a consequence. If it's not too much it helps relieve pain. If it's too much it's uncomfortable. If it's a lot too much, well, we saw Isanese jutsu masters use "heat inside you" as a weapon
I'm gonna be honest I'm against any major rule changes this late into the quest without a very compelling reason. A ton of our XP was spent based on a certain meta. Changing it when we are right on the edge of hitting top tier feels not super fun
Many strong shinobi are dead. It is not good for extra to die or Land of Fire splinters. When someone betrays Asuma, who and how? Sasuke and Naruto have vulnerable knowledge stores to steal. Minami's clan was unhappy and has spying bloodline. Wait for Mari to verify danger or warn with no proof? Scary choice.
Noburi deserves more jutsu. Buy him grand jutsu such as big Reverse Water Prison Kisame used in manga. Go halfsies with Naruto on ordering chakra expensive jutsu. He can use chakra less preciously.
HOWS are designed to be the least efficient possible in terms of turning huge amounts of chakra into so little light that it can stay hidden without making heat. so it makes sense.
can we keep experimenting on it though or will hazou-pilot shoot it down?
Huh, I didn't even think about the fact this could make HOWS better at their job bc the light would be invisible - assuming of course that Dragons don't see infrared...
I'm gonna be honest I'm against any major rule changes this late into the quest without a very compelling reason. A ton of our XP was spent based on a certain meta. Changing it when we are right on the edge of hitting top tier feels not super fun
The thing is the current "top tier" is very (very!) unbalanced mechanically - which you would/will see if the mechanics do not change right on the cusp of stepping into it. In apex ninja combat, everyone will oneshot everyone in a single attack, with runaway pyramids propped on half cost techniques that are themselves never going to be useful in any combat situation. Every fight will trend towards "exchange direct punches/flavorization of ones with no/little strategic play being involved, as the current system mechanically promotes only one kind of build above all others (taijutsu/similar skill every round with a single levelled ninjutsu technique to boost it), and you can bet that the players will spreadsheet minmax it due to it being the only thing that works.
Further, the changes do not disrupt Team Uplift's builds or significantly alter their combat efficiency in the here and now. But they pave the road for an actually sane, strategic and diverse high-level combat, alongside making it easier to design high-level characters and patching up balance holes which lead to the above situation. It also results in battles being more interesting to read and (probably) write.
So the way I perceive it, there is two options - either it stays the way it is, and the combat mechanics start to fall apart one chapter at a time, and then we have a "Hiruzen" moment (where he got essentially oneshot by Yagura) - which was also years into the quest, and which arose as a result of the old system having huge faults. This forced a total, across the board mechanics change going forward (again, years into the quest).
Or, mechanical changes (of some kind, not necessarily the exact same as I propose) will be made in advance to address the above and balance the existing mechanics going forward, and we avoid this kind of situation - which, when it occurs (not really an if) could involve core members of Team Uplift dying or even the quest ending.
the current system mechanically promotes only one kind of build above all others (taijutsu/similar skill every round with a single levelled ninjutsu technique to boost it), and you can bet that the players will spreadsheet minmax it due to it being the only thing that works.
I'm not sure that's wrong though, from a canon perspective, practical perspective, or a narrative perspective.
In canon, with the exception of the S Rankers (not counting Naruto) almost everyone was a one trick ninja. Now that was probably primarily for ease of use when making an anime, give all the support characters very different and highly identifiable ninjutsu - but exactly one, or a natural variation on the one to show they've grown and improved, e.g. the Nara all had shadow possession and then later had shadow stitching. Mechanically, it could be argued that shadow stitching is just Level 60 shadow possession rather than a whole different technique.
It also makes sense, if you're a newly minted genin you have roughly equal skills to everyone in your class who isn't a Clan ninja - and to every other non-clan genin of other nations that you might end up fighting. So how do you differentiate yourself and get an edge? Ninjutsu. And when you find one technique that someone will train you in and that works for your fighting style then you improve that technique. The singularly Taijutsu genin often fall away at this point and rarely make it to Chunin, and once you're a ninjutsu Chunin you're unlikely to switch to a Taijutsu specialization. This is especially true given the decreased barrier to entry to learn other techniques of the same element.
Yes, the Rock Lees of the world end up being incredibly powerful ninja for making it to Chunin, and that's why they're able to fight toe to toe against someone throwing fireballs or lightning, but until then they're at a disadvantage and will probably be killed.
What that means is that there should be very few Taijutsu chunin/jonin to encounter, and when they do exist they punch outside their weight, but that the average combat ninja will be one that specializes in ninjutsu.
A question @Velorien@eaglejarl, Pangolin Earth Armor provides a 3*AB bonus to Physique. Hazou currently has a Physique of 29, say he were to cast PEA at Effect 4, his effective Physique for the duration of the jutsu would be 41. Does he get a 4 box stress track while the jutsu is active? If he fills his 4th box, what happens when the jutsu ends? Does it roll over into a Consequence?
Assuming a stress box were granted by the technique, I'd imagine if the technique ended the stress would disappear with it, since it was absorbed by the Technique rather than Hazou's flesh. This does lead to some weirdness versus naturally having a 4th stress box and it not going away, but I don't find it likely you'd cast PEA twice in a combat anyways, nor would that interaction make much difference in the grand scheme of things.
It would also make sense that it just doesn't grant a stress box and cause those interactions in the first place
My intuition is that it wouldn't give him 4 boxes, for the same reason that taking a Consequence doesn't reduce the size of your stress track. Temporary modifiers don't affect derived factors like AB or stress track size.
They're barely any better than they were before compared to what Jiraiya must have had to work up to, imo. He was already a jonin when he got his scroll. It seems overly optimistic that that was all it would take for Noburi, to me.
Plus, he'd need higher rapport just to get the info out of the toads
Many strong shinobi are dead. It is not good for extra to die or Land of Fire splinters. When someone betrays Asuma, who and how? Sasuke and Naruto have vulnerable knowledge stores to steal. Minami's clan was unhappy and has spying bloodline. Wait for Mari to verify danger or warn with no proof? Scary choice.
Noburi deserves more jutsu. Buy him grand jutsu such as big Reverse Water Prison Kisame used in manga. Go halfsies with Naruto on ordering chakra expensive jutsu. He can use chakra less preciously.
[] Noburi Day trial plan
View a normal day for Noburi.
Options for a less normal day. Say hi to Sasuke and Naruto. How are they? Share our condition. Express concern for clan unity in the face of losses. Collaborate on ninjutsu shopping. Naruto and Noburi both use expensive jutsu easier. Search for Reverse Water Prison.
Say hi to Kabuto. How is he? Share our condition. Pass on a gift from Yuno. Does he want Spider venom or Toad excretion? Is there some small gift or uneven exchange Orochimaru can offer Asuma to facilitate mutual understanding?
They're barely any better than they were before compared to what Jiraiya must have had to work up to, imo. He was already a jonin when he got his scroll. It seems overly optimistic that that was all it would take for Noburi, to me.
Plus, he'd need higher rapport just to get the info out of the toads
It doesn't hurt to ask. "Hey, you said J-man needed to have more chakra and be tougher before you started teaching him sage mode. Do you think I have enough to get started, or do I need to keep working on it?" Probably said more diplomatically, preferably with bugs from Arachnid and Dog lands that Toads wouldn't otherwise have access to.
Hazō passes the test and rolls above the seal's complexity TN. Every three points of success is one shift. Once the number of shifts equals the complexity of the seal, Hazō will have learned the seal.
Heh, I wonder if this is what it felt like to be Jiraiya some days. But also, Hazou was teaching a seal the himself didn't know? That seems strange, especially given how (pun intended) important they are to the survival of the paths right now.
They're barely any better than they were before compared to what Jiraiya must have had to work up to, imo. He was already a jonin when he got his scroll. It seems overly optimistic that that was all it would take for Noburi, to me.
Plus, he'd need higher rapport just to get the info out of the toads
It doesn't hurt to ask. "Hey, you said J-man needed to have more chakra and be tougher before you started teaching him sage mode. Do you think I have enough to get started, or do I need to keep working on it?" Probably said more diplomatically, preferably with bugs from Arachnid and Dog lands that Toads wouldn't otherwise have access to.
So I think Shrooms is right here. Ma didn't even want Pa telling us about it in the first place, and it took a lot of buttering them up to get anything out of them in the first place. "Lots of Chakra" I think we can get (30 for Noburi is effectively 50, which is solid Jonin range, and having more has lots of benefits for everyone), but I feel like physique is going to be the big barrier. Personally, I think at "Physique 40" we should bring it up. The difference between 29 and 40 is substantial, and the extra hit box sounds like a decent mechanical distinction to represent the narrative requirement point.
Also, for the record: the one truck pony ninjutsu use issue I agree is a bit a problem, largely because it incredibly dis-incentivizes acquiring and investing in new techniques. New fighting styles can be learned as stunts, but why learn element #3 when you have 2 that work, you know?
I agree with the stunt suggestion, that the effective level be 'jutsu level + highest jutsu level /2'.
I also wouldn't mind seeing a system to incentivize more elements in Jonin, because that would help make what we've already consistently seen make more sense, so it feels more like matching the mechanisms to the narrative, not the other way around. Specifically, maybe something to the effect of either
'new elements cost 1200 - 200x, where x is the number of elements you currently have', or 'for ever element after your second, an additional 100 of the 1000xp for purchase can be put towards the new technique'. Both make it easier to learn and use a new element as you get used to the process of moldings different Chakra types.
'all elemental jutsu of any element are half-costed until they are half as high as your best elemental jutsu, or as high as your best jutsu of that specific element, whichever comes second'. Would also be viable, I think. Leveling up the first technique in a new element as full-cost is always going to be the thing that gets put on the backburner, I feel
So . . . voting seems open? If nobody has any ideas then I'll happily slide in there first.
[X] Plan Bro Time & Seal
(153 words)
Sasuke offered to teach Hazo how to run a proper Leaf clan. It's time to see what advice he has to offer. Prominent topics that Hazo will breach include:
Scrip disaster.
Uncle Oro.
Mist & Ami & her BS.
If they hit it off, offer him a puppy pile as thanks.
Now that the consequences have healed, Hazo is ready to take another crack at the summoning scroll.
Clearly, the main problems last time were insufficient familiarity and information overload. With his increased understanding of summoning, the 7th path and its inhabitants, the first hurdle should be cleared.
With the Great Seal providing excellent exercise for Hazo's nerves, capacity shouldn't be a problem, so the final preparation is the volume of flow:
Fix the Scroll on a wall, put on some goggles that limit peripheral vision, have a spinning chair bolted to the ground and try to snapshot the seal piece by piece.
Hazō pointed at the rightmost seal that throbbed with a menacing red glow, just like the eye of Saulano, the villain of Jiraiya's Icha Icha Paradise: The Perilous Ring of Matrimony. "What if I thicken it even more?"
It doesn't hurt to ask. "Hey, you said J-man needed to have more chakra and be tougher before you started teaching him sage mode. Do you think I have enough to get started, or do I need to keep working on it?" Probably said more diplomatically, preferably with bugs from Arachnid and Dog lands that Toads wouldn't otherwise have access to.
I think it probably can hurt to ask. Ma and Pa aren't static entities, they're intelligent characters in their own right and old hat at this sort of thing.
The consequences probably won't be dire even in the worst outcomes, but Noburi asking too early could end up making a bad impression and having to work that much harder to get them to open up later when we are ready. At this point, where Noburi very likely has a long way to go to reach the starting line, he's probably best served buttering them up and generally cultivating a favourable impression until we do think we might be ready.
edit: to make analogy, in Minecraft you locate the Stronghold by throwing Eyes of Ender to find what direction it's currently in from you. Strongholds tend to spawn about a thousand blocks out, so people will throw Eyes and then follow along that line for a while and throw more Eyes to adjust their route on the fly. You want to minimize the number of Eyes you throw, though, because each throw might break the Eye and you need them for later.
The intuitive strategy is to throw an Eye every hundred blocks or so, making sure you're on the right path and haven't passed it. But those first throws, at 100 or 200 blocks out, give you minimal information because you already know the Stronghold isn't going to be that close. Better would be to go a thousand blocks out and make your second throw there. If it's 1100 blocks out it'll still point forwards, if it's 900 blocks out it'll point backwards, and both are real possibilities so the second throw gives you meaningful information on where to go next.
(if you're really good you just triangulate, but that's besides the point)
In our situation, pestering Ma and Pa is a throw of the Eye: it gives us information, but with potential costs attached. Ideally we ask when the expected information we gain is the greatest, which is when we've already exhausted the information gained from the first ask. Just like throwing the Eye only 100 blocks out, the information we can expect to get from Ma and Pa after only slightly improving will be nigh-identical to the information we already have, and yet the costs are undiminished.
edit: to make analogy, in Minecraft you locate the Stronghold by throwing Eyes of Ender to find what direction it's currently in from you. Strongholds tend to spawn about a thousand blocks out, so people will throw Eyes and then follow along that line for a while and throw more Eyes to adjust their route on the fly. You want to minimize the number of Eyes you throw, though, because each throw might break the Eye and you need them for later.
The intuitive strategy is to throw an Eye every hundred blocks or so, making sure you're on the right path and haven't passed it. But those first throws, at 100 or 200 blocks out, give you minimal information because you already know the Stronghold isn't going to be that close. Better would be to go a thousand blocks out and make your second throw there. If it's 1100 blocks out it'll still point forwards, if it's 900 blocks out it'll point backwards, and both are real possibilities so the second throw gives you meaningful information on where to go next.
(if you're really good you just triangulate, but that's besides the point)
In our situation, pestering Ma and Pa is a throw of the Eye: it gives us information, but with potential costs attached. Ideally we ask when the expected information we gain is the greatest, which is when we've already exhausted the information gained from the first ask. Just like throwing the Eye only 100 blocks out, the information we can expect to get from Ma and Pa after only slightly improving will be nigh-identical to the information we already have, and yet the costs are undiminished.
I think I didn't express myself well. I don't mean we just go in and ask for sage mode. But just have Noburi have some light interaction with Ma & Pa. Maybe have him talk about how he fills he's getting pigeonholed into a support role. Then since they are his wise mentors he could ask if they have any advice how he can better live up to the legacy of Jiraiya. Honestly I wouldn't mind spending some time with them and Noburi to have some nice drama free interactions
I think I didn't express myself well. I don't mean we just go in and ask for sage mode. But just have Noburi have some light interaction with Ma & Pa. Maybe have him talk about how he fills he's getting pigeonholed into a support role. Then since they are his wise mentors he could ask if they have any advice how he can better live up to the legacy of Jiraiya. Honestly I wouldn't mind spending some time with them and Noburi to have some nice drama free interactions
What we should probably ask is if Noburi can learn Sage Mode to begin with, we're basically assuming we can and that his Wakahisa bloodline won't stop him from learning Sage Mode in the same way it stopped him from learning Shadow Clone.
What we should probably ask is if Noburi can learn Sage Mode to begin with, we're basically assuming we can and that his Wakahisa bloodline won't stop him from learning Sage Mode in the same way it stopped him from learning Shadow Clone.
This framing also opens them up to say 'whaddya mean, boy, of course you can use shadow clone, just channel your chakra widdershins and upside down through your barrel! Eh, humans can't do that? Well, we've got a fix for that. No, pa, the lilypads, they're in bloom right now, you'd have thought of it too if you weren't busy thinking about dinner..."
Or some other useful techniques to address the barrel thing.
One research cycle. If it seems safe, shorten the cycle from 6 days to 5.
Clone 1 researches ARS.
Two elements – one element releases a chakra pulse received by the paired element (receiver like chakdar), which activates an adjacent seal (relay like LBF).
Clone 2 researches HOWS-variants.
Idea: Light Relay seal.
When light of a certain color shines on the receiver, the seal emits light (deactivates when not shined on).
Fold the seal over boards and line them up for instant, low-bandwidth communication. Like signal flares, but directional.
