- Location
- USA
Those rules are for normal seal creation, not for research.
-
Going forward, links to content from Twitter (now X) will no longer be embedded. Pre-existing links should not be affected.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This is why I love this community. People are nice to each other, willing to admit when they're wrong, and willing to learn together. Y'all are freakin' amazing and you have boosted my day.
Note that skytowers are not anchored to the ground, They're a coil of wire, often with some boards laid over it for comfort.
Mwa. Ha. Ha. Haaaaaaa.
- Location
- Europe
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
@Crunbum has proposed an interesting idea for a change in the mechanics. It's been discussed on Discord but we'd like to get the opinion of a broader audience. Please note that we are not yet opening the floor to voting on the idea, only to discussing it.
Crunbum, care to present your idea for the new jutsu rules?
Crunbum, care to present your idea for the new jutsu rules?
From what I can tell/recall, the normal process of seal creation doesn't distinguish from research, that is - the first seal is drawn and infused like all of the copies to follow. A failed infusion during research is the same as normal sealing. But I could certainly be mistaken.
@eaglejarl @Velorien do the time ladder rules for Calligraphy and Sealing rolls apply to prototype seals? IMO they should, since going slow and being careful should help as much when infusing a seal the first time as any subsequent times.
- Location
- USA
IMO they shouldn't, because research is already described as being slow and careful, and there's literally no reason in research to spend 5 minutes scribing a blank when you could spend 10 minutes instead. If instead you think the default time for a research roll is "a day", then being slow and careful on that scale is already represented by the prep day bonus, rather than the time ladder.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
What are we going to call radio if Harumitsu is again instrumental? I don't think we're going to come up with something as awesome as HOWS.
Last edited:
- Location
- Yes.
Some form of insult to Ritsuo that acronyms to RADIO.
- Location
- Europe
Let's just stick to something with RLC or so.
CD,USB, PC, etc. Have all become relevant names without cringe marketing efforts.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I weighed in on discord already but I will post here too. The issue Crunbum raised as I understand it is that Kage-tier ninja and even jonin should be able to pick up jutsu and use it with more or less immediate results, perhaps not to the caliber of their other jutsu but better than a genin.
I am neutral on this question. I don't think the current model (that is, having 3 or 4 jutsu per element) doesn't make sense, it is only inconsistent with canon Naruto where everyone knows a bazillion identical looking attacks. If the QMs want a world where ninjutsu specialists know 10+ Jutsu per element, then yeah you'll probably need to change things up for that to make sense as an investment. I'd also like to mention, as Paper noted (and Crunbum disagrees with haha) Ninjutsu is currently pretty balanced with e.g. Taijutsu so you would need to nerf it in other ways if you buffed ninjutsu with a big increase in potential variety. Also as IV noted, jutsu like WDB are still useful an AB below water whip. This indicates to me that the design of the jutsu themselves can factor into fixing this problem. Indeed, in the doc I shared with the QMs you may have seen me tinker with workarounds that make jutsu useful without being a main part of the build. (Or maybe they're horribly unbalanced, I'm not sure
)In terms of Crunbum's specific METHOD of fixing this problem, I do not support it. It seems really strong and a little more complicated than necessary. I also don't really like the idea of a ninjutsu stat independent from the jutsu themselves but that's kinda just preference.
If you feel strongly about increasing how many jutsu it's feasible to know but want a different option, here's another solution I just thought of while typing this up to mull over: Currently purchasing ninjutsu is 1/2 price if you have a jutsu of higher level already. How about instead of 1/2, you do 1/(AB of best ninjutsu - AB of ninjutsu you are leveling). So if you have a ninjutsu at level 80 as your capstone, the first 10 levels of a new jutsu are 1/8 cost, 11-20 are 1/7, etc... Making the price of raising each much more lenient, up until it approaches your capstone where you can't coast anymore and need to focus on it pretty intensely, same as your best jutsu.
Last edited:
- Location
- Europe
@Paperclipped , @eaglejarl
Does that mean Kagome has less than 50 sealing? Or did you use Akanes Athletics AB?
Asking for a friend.
Does that mean Kagome has less than 50 sealing? Or did you use Akanes Athletics AB?
Asking for a friend.
I like this a lot, the only issue I see is that it makes supplemental ninjutsu that are excellent buffs - like Pangolin Earth Armor - even more broken. That only needs to be leveled to 30 to give non-ablative Armor:4. It means that each ninjutsu spec should have a fuckload of buff ninjutsu to use, since the XP investment is so low.
EDIT: Part of the balancing of ninjutsu is that they cost more chakra the more/better effects they have. Something like non-ablative armor costs a huge amount of chakra. Meaning that you probably don't want to cast it at a super high Effect, since you still need chakra to fight.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Did you mean to reply to me?
And for the record, PEA is above average in quality. I would bet most Buffs are worse on average. Nonetheless, yeah I would expect jonin to be packing multiple good Buffs in this case. Tbh though, that is kind of fitting isn't it? Not every Buff is appropriate for every situation so I'd imagine they'd want multiple. This change also disproportionately benefits ninjutsu specs who will likely have jutsu an AB or 2 higher at pretty much every rank, but I think that's also kind of the point so maybe that's fine too
- Location
- Europe
It's not a supplemental action and costs a lot of chakra at 30.
Ghost sclaes 40 would be cheaper.
Sure!
I'll start by presenting some background information first, to explain the intent behind my suggestion and the reasoning why a change in the current mechanics might be desirable. There's also math for those interested, to demonstrate the state of the balance that it would impose if implemented, in contrast to the current state of affairs.
- Mfd/Lotrol mechanics currently do not mechanically support ninjutsu-focused characters that have more than 1 or 2 signature jutsu pulling their weight, which is less than an average jounin is likely to know elements narratively (2-3). Currently, non-signature (capstone/near-capstone) jutsu are of very little use, and levelling them at all is a major exp drain, which simply cannot be afforded by a remotely optimized character. The current rules also lead to a situation where a ninjutsu spec jounin or even a Kage is casting their low level jutsu at a power befitting of an Academy Student - which, too, is not ideal.
- The inability of current mechanics to represent jutsu variety in character builds without crippling them in power is best illustrated through the lens of Lotrol quest Kakashi (18k exp, with as high a % of it spent in jutsu as a pure ninjutsu spec like Noburi) losing to Akane (8k exp, pure-ish tajiutsu) in simulated fights because said exp is spread out between many jutsu, which all and one fail to achieve above-chuunin efficiency as a result. Also do note that Akane will be able to fight 3 of herself by the time she gets 10k exp, let alone when she is 18k.
- For context, Jounin+ canon characters who get all of one scene and no hype time are shown to use half a dozen elemental techniques (not all techniques) in their single scene, or so, so they know at least that many, likely more, possibly way more, that can be useful in combat. Similar ninja tier canon characters who get more than one scene and hype time are often rumored to know "hundreds" or "thousands" of elemental jutsu, and usually shown using more than a dozen in combat, with 20+ being oddities.
- I perceive there to be little simulationist reason to not allow a diversified ninjutsu skillset, especially since we know of several characters who were famed for or did know and used diverse ninjutsu in the mfd story (Hiruzen, Jiraiya and Kakashi from leaf S-rankers alone)
- I perceive it to be a detriment to promote a "one-trick" pony ninjutsu skillset, as doing so robs combat of great strategic depth by depriving both combatants of numerous tools to try and approach the fight and counter their opponent, turning fights into "numbers hit each other, big number wins".
- Therefore I conclude that it would be good to mechanically allow, if not promote, diversified elemental skillsets over actively punishing them, as it feels important to show the strategic depth of ninja combat as we gradually move past the chuunin phase and into the upper tiers. I do not believe that to be possible within the currently optimal one-trick pony build paradigm.
- The inability of current mechanics to represent jutsu variety in character builds without crippling them in power is best illustrated through the lens of Lotrol quest Kakashi (18k exp, with as high a % of it spent in jutsu as a pure ninjutsu spec like Noburi) losing to Akane (8k exp, pure-ish tajiutsu) in simulated fights because said exp is spread out between many jutsu, which all and one fail to achieve above-chuunin efficiency as a result. Also do note that Akane will be able to fight 3 of herself by the time she gets 10k exp, let alone when she is 18k.
- For context, Jounin+ canon characters who get all of one scene and no hype time are shown to use half a dozen elemental techniques (not all techniques) in their single scene, or so, so they know at least that many, likely more, possibly way more, that can be useful in combat. Similar ninja tier canon characters who get more than one scene and hype time are often rumored to know "hundreds" or "thousands" of elemental jutsu, and usually shown using more than a dozen in combat, with 20+ being oddities.
- I perceive there to be little simulationist reason to not allow a diversified ninjutsu skillset, especially since we know of several characters who were famed for or did know and used diverse ninjutsu in the mfd story (Hiruzen, Jiraiya and Kakashi from leaf S-rankers alone)
- I perceive it to be a detriment to promote a "one-trick" pony ninjutsu skillset, as doing so robs combat of great strategic depth by depriving both combatants of numerous tools to try and approach the fight and counter their opponent, turning fights into "numbers hit each other, big number wins".
- Therefore I conclude that it would be good to mechanically allow, if not promote, diversified elemental skillsets over actively punishing them, as it feels important to show the strategic depth of ninja combat as we gradually move past the chuunin phase and into the upper tiers. I do not believe that to be possible within the currently optimal one-trick pony build paradigm.
Lotrol Kakashi as an illustrating example of why a versatile ninjutsu jounin does not work under the current ruleset
Kakashi has 4710.5 potential Ninjutsu xp (3175.5 xp in elemental jutsu + 1250 in Affinity Stunts + 55 in Medical Ninjutsu + 230 in non-elemental ninjutsu). This is 24% of his exp total, and 2.57x of his Taijutsu 60 capstone exp cost.
Context : Under current rules, whether in lotrol or if we transported Kakashi to the mfd world, he is rolling Chidori at 50 base (or would be if it required a roll), and everything else at 40 or below, usually below 30. He tries to level everything and largely fails miserably.
Under the suggested rules, however, as a tri-element (Lightning/Fire/Earth) jounin, Kakashi would have 3460.5 Ninjutsu xp. This corresponds to Ninjutsu 58. Therefore, he would be rolling hypothetical Chidori at 64 base and everything else in the 59-63 range. If he decided to drop one element, he would have 3960.5 Ninjutsu xp, i.e Ninjutsu 62, meaning 63-69 base jutsu rolls. Finally, if he decided to focus wholly into lightning, he would have 4710.5 Ninjutsu exp (Ninjutsu 68), meaning 69-75 base rolls assuming his techniques didn't hit new capstones as a result.
Comparison with Taijutsu
Let us see how mono and multi-element builds under the suggested system match up against Akane at equivalent exp (8777). We will assume 25% of total exp in techniques (which maps to Noburi's 26% and Lotrol Kakashi's 24%). This gives us a technique budget of 2194xp. A single extra element costs 750xp (Chakra Adept + Affinity stunt), which is 1/3rd of that, two elements cost 1250xp.
Scenario 1: Lets call our guy Omar. In our first scenario, Omar is a mono-element ninjutsu specialist with a Ninjutsu skill of 46.
Akane (same exp) rolls 54 (Taij) base for her attacks, 60 with boost, more with martial art style, far more with supplementals.
Omar (mono element) rolls 51-52 base for his signature jutsu, and 47-50 base with his other jutsu.
Scenario 2: Omar now has twice of Akane's exp (17.6k), meaning 4388.5 technique exp.
Akane (17.6k exp) rolls a projected 72 (Taij) base for her attacks, 80 with boost, more with martial arts or supplementals.
Omar (mono/dual/tri element) rolls a 72/66/62 base for his signature jutsu.
Vacuum Comparison - Exp & Technique Levelling Efficiency
To see how effective levelling techniques and hence Ninjutsu is in a vacuum against a staple skill like Taijutsu, we'll do a simple calculation, ignoring pyramid opportunity cost (which having multiple techniques helps with):
It takes 1830 Taijutsu exp to get it to level 60.
It takes 3660 Ninjutsu exp to get to level 60, which rolls 67 (60 + 7 AB) with equivalent level techniques, which is on par with Taij 60 + chakra boost (you pay for great versatility).
Assume you have Ninjutsu 60, and achieve this with 4 lvl 60 techniques and nothing else (for simplicity's sake). What would happen if you left one of these techniques at level 1? Well, you would be down 915 exp, which would bring you down to 2745 Ninjutsu xp, or Ninjutsu 51. Therefore, by levelling a technique from 1 to 60, we are gaining 9 Ninjutsu levels and an AB increase from 1 to 7, for a total boost to that technique of 9+6 = 15 points.
The same 915 exp (1-60 tech cost) thrown into Taijutsu 51 can buy Taijutsu 66, which is... 15 points.
Some examples on how the suggested change would impact story characters:
Noburi
Noburi has 1912 exp in Ninjutsu (1686xp Water + 226xp no-element). He also has 190 xp in Medical Ninjutsu, which would be replaced by the skill, so its safe to say he'd throw it into the jutsu (or Medknow). That's 2102 exp at most. This means 45 Ninjutsu, i.e 45 base for his techniques. Water Whip would be rolling 45 + 6 = 51 base (currently 50, 55 with boost). Everything else would be rolling 46-50 base. Note: Noburi is almost the definition of a ninjutsu specialist - he has 142% of Akane's tajiutsu capstone (lvl 54) exp in his techniques, and 26% of his total exp in ninjutsu (the most a fully ninjutsu optimized build could afford is ~33%)
Hazou
Hazou has... 959 exp, in his non-elemental jutsu (820 of which is in SC). He also has 263 exp in Earth-element jutsu. So that's a total of 1222 exp, or 82% of Akane's tajiutsu (lvl 54) exp.
That's level 34 Ninjutsu (thanks, shadow clone!). He would be rolling 38 base for Earthshaping (currently 30, 35 with boost), 36 for Living Roots (Currently 10, 15 with boost) and 35 (Currently 1, 6 with boost) for everything else.
Kakashi has 4710.5 potential Ninjutsu xp (3175.5 xp in elemental jutsu + 1250 in Affinity Stunts + 55 in Medical Ninjutsu + 230 in non-elemental ninjutsu). This is 24% of his exp total, and 2.57x of his Taijutsu 60 capstone exp cost.
Context : Under current rules, whether in lotrol or if we transported Kakashi to the mfd world, he is rolling Chidori at 50 base (or would be if it required a roll), and everything else at 40 or below, usually below 30. He tries to level everything and largely fails miserably.
Under the suggested rules, however, as a tri-element (Lightning/Fire/Earth) jounin, Kakashi would have 3460.5 Ninjutsu xp. This corresponds to Ninjutsu 58. Therefore, he would be rolling hypothetical Chidori at 64 base and everything else in the 59-63 range. If he decided to drop one element, he would have 3960.5 Ninjutsu xp, i.e Ninjutsu 62, meaning 63-69 base jutsu rolls. Finally, if he decided to focus wholly into lightning, he would have 4710.5 Ninjutsu exp (Ninjutsu 68), meaning 69-75 base rolls assuming his techniques didn't hit new capstones as a result.
Comparison with Taijutsu
Let us see how mono and multi-element builds under the suggested system match up against Akane at equivalent exp (8777). We will assume 25% of total exp in techniques (which maps to Noburi's 26% and Lotrol Kakashi's 24%). This gives us a technique budget of 2194xp. A single extra element costs 750xp (Chakra Adept + Affinity stunt), which is 1/3rd of that, two elements cost 1250xp.
Scenario 1: Lets call our guy Omar. In our first scenario, Omar is a mono-element ninjutsu specialist with a Ninjutsu skill of 46.
Akane (same exp) rolls 54 (Taij) base for her attacks, 60 with boost, more with martial art style, far more with supplementals.
Omar (mono element) rolls 51-52 base for his signature jutsu, and 47-50 base with his other jutsu.
Scenario 2: Omar now has twice of Akane's exp (17.6k), meaning 4388.5 technique exp.
Akane (17.6k exp) rolls a projected 72 (Taij) base for her attacks, 80 with boost, more with martial arts or supplementals.
Omar (mono/dual/tri element) rolls a 72/66/62 base for his signature jutsu.
Vacuum Comparison - Exp & Technique Levelling Efficiency
To see how effective levelling techniques and hence Ninjutsu is in a vacuum against a staple skill like Taijutsu, we'll do a simple calculation, ignoring pyramid opportunity cost (which having multiple techniques helps with):
It takes 1830 Taijutsu exp to get it to level 60.
It takes 3660 Ninjutsu exp to get to level 60, which rolls 67 (60 + 7 AB) with equivalent level techniques, which is on par with Taij 60 + chakra boost (you pay for great versatility).
Assume you have Ninjutsu 60, and achieve this with 4 lvl 60 techniques and nothing else (for simplicity's sake). What would happen if you left one of these techniques at level 1? Well, you would be down 915 exp, which would bring you down to 2745 Ninjutsu xp, or Ninjutsu 51. Therefore, by levelling a technique from 1 to 60, we are gaining 9 Ninjutsu levels and an AB increase from 1 to 7, for a total boost to that technique of 9+6 = 15 points.
The same 915 exp (1-60 tech cost) thrown into Taijutsu 51 can buy Taijutsu 66, which is... 15 points.
Some examples on how the suggested change would impact story characters:
Noburi
Noburi has 1912 exp in Ninjutsu (1686xp Water + 226xp no-element). He also has 190 xp in Medical Ninjutsu, which would be replaced by the skill, so its safe to say he'd throw it into the jutsu (or Medknow). That's 2102 exp at most. This means 45 Ninjutsu, i.e 45 base for his techniques. Water Whip would be rolling 45 + 6 = 51 base (currently 50, 55 with boost). Everything else would be rolling 46-50 base. Note: Noburi is almost the definition of a ninjutsu specialist - he has 142% of Akane's tajiutsu capstone (lvl 54) exp in his techniques, and 26% of his total exp in ninjutsu (the most a fully ninjutsu optimized build could afford is ~33%)
Hazou
Hazou has... 959 exp, in his non-elemental jutsu (820 of which is in SC). He also has 263 exp in Earth-element jutsu. So that's a total of 1222 exp, or 82% of Akane's tajiutsu (lvl 54) exp.
That's level 34 Ninjutsu (thanks, shadow clone!). He would be rolling 38 base for Earthshaping (currently 30, 35 with boost), 36 for Living Roots (Currently 10, 15 with boost) and 35 (Currently 1, 6 with boost) for everything else.
Now onto the suggestion proper:
- Make Ninjutsu a Skill (like Taijutsu, Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons etc)
- Ninjutsu would be a double cost skill, but rather than being levelled directly, it would instead receive the combined exp of all ninjutsu techniques (both elemental and non-elemental) learned by a character.
- Ninjutsu Techniques would all become half cost skills (which is the case right now, except for the highest level technique in each element - that exception would be lifted).
- Ninjutsu Techniques would now use Ninjutsu + Skill AB as their base (Rather than solely Skill Level), but would no longer be able to benefit from Chakra Boost.
- Ninjutsu Techniques which scale with Effect would have max Effect castable be equal to 1 + 1 per 20 levels (rather than 10), based on the sum of Ninjutsu and Technique Level rather than just the latter.
These changes would mean that less-levelled techniques would retain some combat relevance (Rolling 1-3 Shifts below one's signature jutsu depending on tier), allowing ninja to learn and utilize a vast, versatile array of techniques in combat - tailoring their strategy to their opponent, rather than unconditionally spamming the same one or two jutsu every combat round. At the same time, since ninjutsu is levelled by levelling techniques, there is a sufficient incentive to actually try and make a technique or two your signature jutsu still. Furthermore, these changes would make it viable to focus on multiple elements - which it currently is not (though the cost of associated stunts still means that only experienced chuunin can realistically afford a dual-element build, and only jounin can afford at tri-element one).
However, due to the nature of the balance which the changes carry, it also means most characters would be rolling a bit less (1-2 Shifts) with their signature jutsu than they do now with max boost (since it would no longer impact jutsu), though the benefits in massively improved versatility and expanded tech skillset cannot be underestimated.
- (Optional) Remove Medical Ninjutsu as a skill, making Medical Ninjutsu checks become Medical Knowledge checks, which would rely on Ninjutsu Skill in much the same way as Sealing relies on Calligraphy.
- (Optional) Introduce a system mirroring the above for Genjutsu as a skill and its techniques.
Last edited:
Aw, I somehow got the impression that the coil extended to the ground, in a very long spiral. I went looking with the search function to the recesses of time, waded through simpler, Zabuzier times, and came back with erroneous info.
Dunno how affordable ninja wire is, the possibility of spark gap radio may still be there, just drop a line from the top.
Here, lemme do some calcs:
Assuming 100 m cable, that gets you 5E3 V and 2 E-15 A from the atmosphere as a capacitor of uh don't wanna integrate I mean is left as an exercise for the reader, Coulombs. So now we only need to calculate the radiation resistance of a long monopole antenna, and as the receiver will be exactly the same geometry and dimensions, the generated voltage on the receiver is just V(d, lambda)=(r1+r2)sqrt(8 P/r1) where r1 is the radiation resistance (which is a function of wavelength), r2 is the "static" resistance, and P is the received power, which is the inverse of the voltage function multiplied by the atmospheric permittivity which depends on wavelength and distance, multiplied by the distance losses (dependent on distance). Also left as an exercise for the reader.
Taking Hertz's experiments as a guideline, he used about 4E4 V to reciprocate a spark between two Riess spirals set 10 cm apart. We have a tenth of the voltage and a hundred times the length of conductor, so we can easily expect about a meter of effective range. Plus minus a couple orders of magnitude.
Tldr: haha, physicist go grrr
Yeah GS is also ablative armor, which is way worse in comparison. PEA 30 takes off 4 stress off every hit. GS 40 will soak up to 5 stress and then it's gone. That's why PEA costs so much more, the non-ablative armor perk costs 5x strain per Effect
- Location
- Europe
The usefulness depends on the situation.
GS can be recast at a chep price, PEA cannot be recast that easy, that's all.
edit: I thought GS is AB-1, it's actually pretty CP cheap.
Last edited:
Recasting GS wastes an entire Standard Action each time - that's cripplingly bad. We'll just be turtling up, unable to attack or cast other jutsu until our chakra runs out. If the opponent can consistently hit us we're better off running away. PEA means we can continue to stack buffs on while taking the hits. Or cast HLaM+Tunnel Excavation if we're not getting anywhere and get out intact.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Which project Prime is working on, it looks like. I'm not really sure why faflec made a duplicate plan when he could have just asked me to swap the two, but...
- Location
- Europe
Sure. Normally we would have both techniques and a bit more chakra. PEA costs a good part of our current reserves, I don't like that.
I asked you to swap.
Unfortunately Armor doesn't stack. Although the precise nature of the GS construct means that it might go on over PEA and stack like it does with PCJ. I don't have high hopes though.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I must have missed it, sorry. Although it looks like your reasoning is not wanting to share the glory with Harumitsu? Whereas faflec merely wanted to prioritize Air Tunnels (even though they'd get worked on either way so I'm still confused)