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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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I don't actually want to commit to a contract. I do however want to bring it up with everyone so they understand just how serious the situation is.

[X] In Which Hazou Proposes Catastrophic Damage As Damage Control
Word Count: 399
  • Sanity check with, and bring Akane and Noburi
  • Relay Hazou's conversation with Ami to Kei and Snowflake. Make space for their feelings, but stay focused on delivering information.
    • He wants to know what Snowflake/Kei would like to do, and how to best satisfy their, the clan's, and his own preferences. Hazou respects Kei's choice to cut ties, so she's welcome to remain uninvolved if she prefers. However, he'd like to discuss the situation with Snowflake, if she is amenable.
    • Hazou would prefer no contract be struck at all, and Ami be talked out of 'destroying' Mari.
      • Notably, Ami stated that she'll prioritize Kei's safety over Kei's agency/desires; that'd need to be accounted for.
        • Kei, do you want Ami to destroy Mari? Should she do this to anyone she thinks might pose the slightest risk to you?
      • Could we persuade Ami Mari's survival increases Kei's odds? Orchestrating a Leaf jounin's death could put Leaf and Mist at war, or cause internal strife between clans.
      • If Hazou has to make a contract with Ami:
        • Hazou commits to deal.
        • If Mari sacrifices Kei in any capacity, Hazou employs his commitment.
        • If Hazou reneges, Ami uses all her resources to destroy Gouketsu, regardless of consequences.
        • Severe enough that Mari wouldn't sacrifice Kei under any circumstance
        • Severe enough Ami would believe Mari won't sacrifice Kei.
        • Palatable to the clan — Hazou won't commit without their consent.
      • Possibilities:
        • Pledging the Gouketsu Clan's resources to the Hyuuga.
        • Staging an attack on Orochimaru's Basement.
        • Hazou becomes Ami's vassal, directly.
  • Relay Ami and Snowflake conversations to Akane, Noburi, Mari, and Kagome
    • Was this a play to make Hazou more Ami-aligned? Is any kind of contract actually a viable deterrent? Hazou is concerned of an outside party taking advantage of it.
    • It seems that Ami is projecting her inaction with Kei's bullies onto Mari's actions, and she essentially declared herself voluntarily irrational on the subject.
    • Hazou expects Mari'd be opposed to indulging Ami at all, and might try to handle it on her own, social-spec to social-spec. Hazou trusts her judgement, but he'd greatly appreciate if she looped him into anything she does, preferably beforedoing it. A showdown between the two could have catastrophic consequences regardless of the victor.
      • Sacrificing yourself again isn't preferred, for the record.
    • Akane, Mari, you've chatted with Ami often. Do you think Hazou handled things correctly?
  • Offscreen
    • Patrol Hyena border
 
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HAZOU: "Kei, your idolized Goddess-Walking-the-Earth, the deity even Evil-Snowflake couldn't bring herself to disparage during her first Summoning, wants to hurt Mari, the woman who has hurt you often."

KEI: "Well, I firmly believe that Ami is never, ever wrong (even when confronted with evidence to that point, even when I am told as much by Lady Ami, herself) so I guess it's time to place an order with T&I."
 
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Pharos said:
Everyone in-story agrees that Kei was in danger. And Oro hasn't kidnapped a clan member yet, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't. He was also particularly tempted by Kei's ability to create cognitively-independant shadow clones -- the Bloodline Limits of the other Leaf clans are already known to him, and he's had decades to study them. As far as he knew, only Kei was capable of this.
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But as soon as he learned it was bloodline related, he was disinterested. So...

Also, no one that actually knows Oro has weighed in on whether or not she was in danger. For most involved parties it was the possibility of extreme danger that was unacceptable.
 
@eaglejarl, will you let us know when the state of chapter 483 sets permanently? Either 'there will be no alterations' or 'there is a re-write of some variety pending'.
 
Random half-idea: I observe we're not involving Mari in this nearly as much as I'd expect. The present moment is a clan dinner with Mari in attendance (since 484 is chronologically before 483, remember to thank Ami for the non-linear time), so we can loop her into the situation and, you know, get the input of the social-spec Elite Jounin who's directly involved in this whole affair.

We don't have to do it all ourself.
 
RandomOTP said:
HAZOU: "Kei, your idolized Goddess-Walking-the-Earth, the deity even Evil-Snowflake wouldn't disparage during her first Summoning, wants to hurt Mari, the woman who has hurt you often."

KEI: "Well, I firmly believe that Ami is never, ever wrong (even when confronted with evidence to that point, even when I am told as much by Lady Ami, herself) so I guess it's time to place an order with T&I."
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Not gonna lie, the fact that Ami explicitly said she would disregard what Kei wants in addition to Kei still caring about Mari and also caring about what the rest of Goketsu wants has a pretty decent chance of finally making a dent in that obsession, by my estimation

Or maybe it's just wishful thinking
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Random half-idea: I observe we're not involving Mari in this nearly as much as I'd expect. The present moment is a clan dinner with Mari in attendance (since 484 is chronologically before 483, remember to thank Ami for the non-linear time), so we can loop her into the situation and, you know, get the input of the social-spec Elite Jounin who's directly involved in this whole affair.

We don't have to do it all ourself.
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I'm kind of concerned that if Mari becomes aware enough of the issue she'll just kill herself to resolve it
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Random half-idea: I observe we're not involving Mari in this nearly as much as I'd expect. The present moment is a clan dinner with Mari in attendance (since 484 is chronologically before 483, remember to thank Ami for the non-linear time), so we can loop her into the situation and, you know, get the input of the social-spec Elite Jounin who's directly involved in this whole affair.

We don't have to do it all ourself.
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I suspect Mari is the only one with an accurate model of Ami. It's certainly not Kei.

Shrooms said:
Not gonna lie, the fact that Ami explicitly said she would disregard what Kei wants in addition to Kei still caring about Mari and also caring about what the rest of Goketsu wants has a pretty decent chance of finally making a dent in that obsession, by my estimation

Or maybe it's just wishful thinking
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Wishful thinking, imo. Remember when Kei was having a crisis of faith about Ami, and Hazou unintentionally convinced Kei to double-down? Kei said something to the effect of "obviously Ami's ways are unknowbale to one such as myself, and I should forever trust in Ami's judgement."
 
Shrooms said:
There's room for word count optimization here, but this is the kind of approach I would prefer. Essentially, get Kei's help developing a contract Ami would approve of and/or get Kei to realize exactly what Ami is capable of and willing to do, and hopefully talk her out of it.

[X] In Which Hazou Proposes Catastrophic Damage As Damage Control
Word Count: 305
  • Kei and Snowflake
    • Good to see you. Unfortunately, Hazou is here for professional help, not socializing. Would you two be willing to help Hazou optimize a deal he needs to make with Ami?
      • Relay Hazou's conversation with Ami.
        • Hazou doesn't know what Snowflake chose, but respects Kei's decision to cut ties with Mari, so if she decides to remain hands off, so be it. However, Hazou and the remainder of Goketsu have a strong preference for Mari to survive and would greatly appreciate the help.
        • Any deal Hazou proposes will need to fit three criteria:
          • It must be severe enough that Mari wouldn't sacrifice Kei under any circumstance.
          • It must be severe enough that Ami will believe Mari won't sacrifice Kei ever again.
          • It must be palatable enough that the rest of the clan agrees, as Hazou won't commit without their consent.
        • Additionally, Ami stated outright that she will prioritize Kei's safety over her agency/desires, so that will need to be accounted for.
        • The Deal will take this structure:
          • Hazou commits to the deal.
          • If Mari sacrifices Kei in any capacity, Hazou employs his commitment.
          • If Hazou reneges, Ami uses all her resources to destroy the Goketsu, regardless of consequences.
        • Possible commitments to dissuade Mari/appease Ami:
          • The Goketsu give all their resources to the Hyuuga and become a vassal clan.
          • Hazou blows up as much of Orochimaru's Basement as possible.
          • Hazou becomes a vassal of Ami directly.
        • Hazou strongly believes Mari won't sacrifice Kei again regardless, so the contract is mostly to convince Ami a 1% chance is a 0% chance.
        • Perhaps, alternatively, Ami could be persuaded Mari's survival increases the odds of Kei's? Orchestrating the death of a Leaf jounin could put Leaf and Mist at war, or cause internal strife between Leaf clans.
        • What do Kei and Snowflake want to do?
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Just use the word 'disown'. Keiko disowned her own mother. There's no need to dance around what Keiko did.
 
_The_Bomb said:
YOU WERE NOT SUPPOSED TO LEAD WITH THAT. DON'T TALK ABOUT SPECIFICS UNTIL YOU KNOW WHICH APPROACH IS BEST. OTHERWISE THERE WOULD BE NO POINT, AS YOU'VE ALREADY LOST THE OPPURTUNITY TO BREAK IT TO HER IN THE OPTIMAL WAY.
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I was of two minds on that. My initial idea was basically what happened: to use the meta-proposal discussion to fill Ami in on all relevant information under the thin veneer of the hypothetical, basically making test runs of every approach. @Inferno Vulpix's later suggestion had me change the wording to try and make the meta-approach discussion an actual discussion of best ways to manipulate Ami, instead of an oblique hybrid, but either I didn't make it clear enough for @Velorien or Hazou decided it wouldn't be a good idea— regardless, what happened is not entirely against my vision.
Hence why I wanted to argue that it is not nessesary since this was a compete nightmare scenario, as Ami well knows, that forced Mari into a position where putting Kei in danger was even an option. Since Mari then went on to put herself at substantial unnessesary risk to protect Kei, it's very clear that Mari values Kei deeply, perhaps even more than she does herself, and would never have done this had this not been a complete nightmare scenario.

[insert Ami's quotes about how Orochimaru blindsides everyone, her incuded, and about how Orochimaru is something that cannot be fought or run from]

Given that, it would be far more productive to help Hazō come up with anti-Orochimaru contingency plans than it would to neutralize Mari, seeing as Mari will act as a steward protector of Kei in all circumstances and is only a danger when nightmares like Orochimaru show up.
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I feel certain this wouldn't have worked:
Velorien said:
"Recall that Ami's concern is Mari's initial act of sacrifice. It does not help your case for Ami to think, 'Mari was prepared to risk Kei's life with only a 70% probability that she would die'. Nor 50%. Nor 30%. There is no plausible number that Ami would consider acceptable, insofar as it is only through deliberate mental discipline that she accepts Kei's right to risk her own life by serving as a ninja. Nor is it permissible for Mari to believe that there is such a number.

"Furthermore, even if Ami were to approve entirely of Mari's handling of the situation in general terms, which I believe to be entirely possible, general terms do not apply to Kei. As far as Ami is concerned, Kei is exceptional in every way, and any situation involving her must be analysed on its own terms.

"Moving back to the perspective of consequences, to Ami, hurting Mari would also be a natural part of the consequences of endangering Kei, no less so than Kei severing ties with Mari. Indeed, it would have been much more predictable than the other elements of the outcome, as Ami is extremely predictable when it comes to Kei."
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Ami does not care what kind of nightmare scenario Orochimaru is. She cares about Mari being the kind of person who does not value Kei above literally all other considerations. And while most people don't value Kei above all other considerations, Mari explicitly acted on that, which makes Ami feel like she ought to punish her — for its own sake, not really for any Kei-safety-maximization reason.
C'mon, lean more into the agency argument. Ami hold personal agency very highly and your best arugument at this point is to frame taking revenge on Mari as depriving Kei of her own agency.
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Yup, that's one of the strongest arguments we could've come up with. But if we'd tried for an actual non-meta plan, and included that argument, I would've argued against it by expecting Ami to counter with something like this:
Velorien said:
"People's agencies come into conflict all the time," Ami said, voice growing stronger. "Doing something she'd disapprove of isn't the same as violating her agency."
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And then we would've been left with no argument. Repeat for every other argument that would've sounded compelling to us at the planning stage, until we would've been left with nothing.

This is exactly why I didn't want to commit to any specific approach, and why I didn't really feel that any specific approach, even if it were presented as a fully developed plan instead of a "shallow argument", would have worked. They all sound good on paper, but her reaction to this situation was pretty much overdetermined, no matter how we framed it. My plan's intent was to field as many arguments as possible without committing to any one in order to sound her out on all lines of argumentation, then commit to the ones that twigged something and hope that the whole thing entertained and/or distracted and/or confused her enough she wouldn't be as compelled to act on her desires anymore.

Which, I would argue, is exactly what happened. Hazou's last emotional appeal might've well only worked because the rest of the chapter endeared him to her.
 
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Wait.

Why are we so concerned?

We just say "Oh yeah btw Mari, Ami may or may not be trying to kill you and I got a temporary stay of execution until we come up with some sorta guarantee that Ami's happy with"

"have fun"

Then Mari and Ami can have their cage-match to the death and it's none of our problem!

Score another one for delegation!
 
Velorien said:
What do you mean by this?
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That given Ami's known personality traits she would seek revenge on Mari for the role she played in this situation no matter how we try to present it, assuming she isn't in some sort of altered state of consciousness and we give her full information?

But I feel like I'm misunderstanding your question or missing some subtext.
 
Noumero said:
That given Ami's known personality traits she would seek revenge on Mari for the role she played in this situation no matter how we try to present it, assuming she isn't in some sort of altered state of consciousness and we give her full information?

But I feel like I'm misunderstanding your question or missing some subtext.
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I'm just unfamiliar with the term "overdetermined".
 
Velorien said:
I'm just unfamiliar with the term "overdetermined".
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Ah. Yeah, it basically means "this outcome is enforced by several causes". Because Ami would seek to protect Kei, because Ami would feel that Mari needs to be punished as a matter of principle, because Ami would be enraged and would seek to punish Mari for self-satisfaction, etc.
 
Shrooms said:
There's room for word count optimization here, but this is the kind of approach I would prefer. Essentially, get Kei's help developing a contract Ami would approve of and/or get Kei to realize exactly what Ami is capable of and willing to do, and hopefully talk her out of it.

[X] In Which Hazou Proposes Catastrophic Damage As Damage Control
Word Count: 323
  • Kei and Snowflake
    • Good to see you. Unfortunately, Hazou is here for professional help, not socializing. Would you two be willing to help Hazou optimize a deal he needs to make with Ami?
      • Relay Hazou's conversation with Ami.
        • Hazou doesn't know what Snowflake chose, but respects Kei's decision to cut ties with Mari, so if she decides to remain hands off, so be it. However, Hazou and the remainder of Goketsu have a strong preference for Mari to survive and would greatly appreciate the help.
        • Hazou wants to know what Kei and Snowflake want to do, and how to align his actions according to them, his own preferences, and the clan's.
        • Any deal Hazou proposes will need to fit three criteria:
          • It must be severe enough that Mari wouldn't sacrifice Kei under any circumstance.
          • It must be severe enough that Ami will believe Mari won't sacrifice Kei ever again.
          • It must be palatable enough that the rest of the clan agrees, as Hazou won't commit without their consent.
        • Additionally, Ami stated outright that she will prioritize Kei's safety over her agency/desires, so that will need to be accounted for.
        • The Deal will take this structure:
          • Hazou commits to the deal.
          • If Mari sacrifices Kei in any capacity, Hazou employs his commitment.
          • If Hazou reneges, Ami uses all her resources to destroy the Goketsu, regardless of consequences.
        • Possible commitments to dissuade Mari/appease Ami:
          • The Goketsu give all their resources to the Hyuuga and become a vassal clan.
          • Hazou blows up as much of Orochimaru's Basement as possible.
          • Hazou becomes a vassal of Ami directly.
        • Hazou strongly believes Mari won't sacrifice Kei again regardless, so the contract is mostly to convince Ami a 1% chance is a 0% chance.
        • Perhaps, alternatively, Ami could be persuaded Mari's survival increases the odds of Kei's? Orchestrating the death of a Leaf jounin could put Leaf and Mist at war, or cause internal strife between Leaf clans.
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edited according to Pharos' suggestion
 
faflec said:
I'm sorry, I thought I could read it but I can't it's too saaaaaad :(
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I actually thought it was very sweet... For Ami, of course

I love Hazou and Ami's growing bond (and all the roadblocks that keep getting in the way!) Every time Hazou proves himself more interesting it just makes her happier, and every time she's actually vulnerable with him it makes him happier. Very cute stuff. Too bad the whole "I will kill Mari" thing rudely intruded on it smh
 
Shrooms said:
I love Hazou and Ami's growing bond (and all the roadblocks that keep getting in the way!) Every time Hazou proves himself more interesting it just makes her happier, and every time she's actually vulnerable with him it makes him happier. Very cute stuff. Too bad the whole "I will kill Mari" thing rudely intruded on it smh
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that's what makes it so saaaaaad
 
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