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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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@Shrooms Maybe change this part to have Hazō starting with just asking for Snowflake's help while allowing Kei to become involved if she wants to. She'll still know about what's happening, but the way it's worded now it feels like Hazō is using Mari being in danger to pressure her into helping which isn't necessary when Snowflake knows Ami just as well as Kei does.

  • Hazou doesn't know what Snowflake chose, but respects Kei's decision to cut ties with Mari, so if she decides to remain hands off, so be it. However, Hazou and the remainder of Goketsu have a strong preference for Mari to survive and would greatly appreciate the help.
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Evolvingmind said:
@Shrooms Maybe change this part to have Hazō starting with just asking for Snowflake's help while allowing Kei to become involved if she wants to. She'll still know about what's happening, but the way it's worded now it feels like Hazō is using Mari being in danger to pressure her into helping which isn't necessary when Snowflake knows Ami just as well as Kei does.
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From the way I'm reading it, I don't really feel like your hypothetical suggested change is meaningfully different from what's already there. Could you word specifically what you want for me?
 
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Shrooms said:
edited according to Pharos' suggestion
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Would it be at all possible to split the plan into two scenes instead of just one? A scene for a Kei + Snowflake conversation, and a scene for Mari + Noburi? We do not need to solve this issue on our own. I do not trust that Kei will give any sort of beneficial advice. Hazo believes that Mari made the best decision she could at the time, so for him to not allow her input in this decision seems out of character.

In my ideal world, after we get input from the two pairs, we make a "presentation" to the Goketsu ninja, state the situation, that we tried to solve the issue ourselves but couldn't, and that this is us asking for input, advice, suggestions, etc. Whatever the clan agrees to at that point is what we present to Ami.
 
Shrooms said:
From the way I'm reading it, I don't really feel like your hypothetical suggested change is meaningfully different from what's already there. Could you word specifically what you want for me?
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Something closer to this.

Hazō needs help to negotiate a deal with Ami so that she doesn't retaliate against Mari for using them to distract Orochimaru. If they're both comfortable with it Hazō would like to talk to Snowflake about the situation and ask her advise on what to do. Kei is welcome to leave and learn about his conversation with Ami through Snowflake later or stay and contribute however much or little she is willing to help him protect Mari.
 
ProperAttorney said:
Would it be at all possible to split the plan into two scenes instead of just one? A scene for a Kei + Snowflake conversation, and a scene for Mari + Noburi? We do not need to solve this issue on our own. I do not trust that Kei will give any sort of beneficial advice. Hazo believes that Mari made the best decision she could at the time, so for him to not allow her input in this decision seems out of character.
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We aren't committing to anything with my plan, we're asking Kei what she thinks is optimal. There's still time to talk to Mari and Noburi about it afterward.

To actually make it a second scene for this update? Idk, the plan is already over 300 words as it is. I'll probably have to rewrite the whole thing with more efficient wording to do that, but I can try I guess.

Evolvingmind said:
Something closer to this.

Hazō needs help to negotiate a deal with Ami so that she doesn't retaliate against Mari for using them to distract Orochimaru. If they're both comfortable with it Hazō would like to talk to Snowflake about the situation and ask her advise on what to do. Kei is welcome to leave and learn about his conversation with Ami through Snowflake later or stay and contribute however much or little she is willing to help him protect Mari.
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Hmm, this will also take some serious condensing....
 
Shrooms said:
We aren't committing to anything with my plan, we're asking Kei what she thinks is optimal. There's still time to talk to Mari and Noburi about it afterward.

To actually make it a second scene for this update? Idk, the plan is already over 300 words as it is. I'll probably have to rewrite the whole thing with more efficient wording to do that, but I can try I guess.


Hmm, this will also take some serious condensing....
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EJ has said that 3 scenes are, if not fine, then at least not penalized. I think minimizing the amount of updates in which we are asking different groups similar questions is probably best for everyone's sanity. Honestly, maybe just 1) Kei + Snowflake & 2) Goketsu. We do hivemind stuff with the information/suggestions they give us, make a proposal, sanity check it with the clan, and present it to Ami.
 
ProperAttorney said:
EJ has said that 3 scenes are, if not fine, then at least not penalized. I think minimizing the amount of updates in which we are asking different groups similar questions is probably best for everyone's sanity. Honestly, maybe just 1) Kei + Snowflake & 2) Goketsu. We do hivemind stuff with the information/suggestions they give us, make a proposal, sanity check it with the clan, and present it to Ami.
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This is a Velorien update. The number of scenes isn't my concern though - long plans in general are best avoided. There's a reason they give incentive XP to keep them short. It makes it easier on the QMs. Going a bit over is fine but we start getting penalties if the plan is like 500 words.

Evolvingmind said:
Something closer to this.

Hazō needs help to negotiate a deal with Ami so that she doesn't retaliate against Mari for using them to distract Orochimaru. If they're both comfortable with it Hazō would like to talk to Snowflake about the situation and ask her advise on what to do. Kei is welcome to leave and learn about his conversation with Ami through Snowflake later or stay and contribute however much or little she is willing to help him protect Mari.
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Shrooms said:
There's room for word count optimization here, but this is the kind of approach I would prefer. Essentially, get Kei's help developing a contract Ami would approve of and/or get Kei to realize exactly what Ami is capable of and willing to do, and hopefully talk her out of it.

[X] In Which Hazou Proposes Catastrophic Damage As Damage Control
Word Count: 302
  • Kei and Snowflake
    • Good to see you. Unfortunately, Hazou is here for professional help, not socializing.
      • Relay Hazou's conversation with Ami.
        • Hazō wants to respect Kei's choice to cut ties, so he would like to discuss the situation with Snowflake, if she is amenable to it. Kei is welcome to remain uninvolved or contribute however much she is willing to help him protect Mari.
        • Hazou wants to know what Kei and Snowflake want to do, and how to align his actions according to them, his own preferences, and the clan's.
        • Any deal Hazou proposes will need to fit three criteria:
          • It must be severe enough that Mari wouldn't sacrifice Kei under any circumstance.
          • It must be severe enough that Ami will believe Mari won't sacrifice Kei ever again.
          • It must be palatable enough that the rest of the clan agrees, as Hazou won't commit without their consent.
        • Additionally, Ami stated outright that she will prioritize Kei's safety over her agency/desires, so that will need to be accounted for.
        • The Deal will take this structure:
          • Hazou commits to the deal.
          • If Mari sacrifices Kei in any capacity, Hazou employs his commitment.
          • If Hazou reneges, Ami uses all her resources to destroy the Goketsu, regardless of consequences.
        • Possible commitments to dissuade Mari/appease Ami:
          • The Goketsu give all their resources to the Hyuuga and become a vassal clan.
          • Hazou blows up as much of Orochimaru's Basement as possible.
          • Hazou becomes a vassal of Ami directly.
        • Hazou strongly believes Mari won't sacrifice Kei again regardless, so the contract is mostly to convince Ami a 1% chance is a 0% chance.
        • Perhaps, alternatively, Ami could be persuaded Mari's survival increases the odds of Kei's? Orchestrating the death of a Leaf jounin could put Leaf and Mist at war, or cause internal strife between Leaf clans.
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Does this work? I tried to shorten it but keep the intent.
 
Shrooms said:
This is a Velorien update. The number of scenes isn't my concern though - long plans in general are best avoided. There's a reason they give incentive XP to keep them short. It makes it easier on the QMs. Going a bit over is fine but we start getting penalties if the plan is like 500 words.
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400-499 gets a -1 XP per day penalty. 300-399 is 0 XP per day and <300 is +1 XP per day.
 
Shrooms said:
This is a Velorien update. The number of scenes isn't my concern though - long plans in general are best avoided. There's a reason they give incentive XP to keep them short. It makes it easier on the QMs. Going a bit over is fine but we start getting penalties if the plan is like 500 words.



Does this work? I tried to shorten it but keep the intent.
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Yes, that works great.

[X] In Which Hazou Proposes Catastrophic Damage As Damage Control
 
zxzx24 said:
Seeing you all talking in discord was weird, I am so used to seeing you all as voiceless lines of text on a screen.

Im not even sure I can imagine what Eaglejarl sounds like.
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It was odd for me as well. For the record, I sound pretty much exactly like a young James Earl Jones, which is weird because I look like an older Matt Bomer except with more abs.

FaintlySorcerous said:
@eaglejarl, will you let us know when the state of chapter 483 sets permanently? Either 'there will be no alterations' or 'there is a re-write of some variety pending'.
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We will, yes, and thank you for the suggestion. It's still under discussion.

faflec said:
I'm sorry, I thought I could read it but I can't it's too saaaaaad :(
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It actually came out about as well as it could, under the circumstance. My opinion, for whatever that's worth.

Velorien said:
But... How do you know it's too sad if you haven't read it? And why leave a faflec.reaction? I feel a bit disillusioned learning those aren't linked to the update itself.
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He always leaves a comment within seconds of the update going up, and he's always first except when @_The_Bomb gets a 'Meep!' in first. I am still uncertain of faflec's omniscience enough to think that he needs to read, so he must be posting first and then going back.

ProperAttorney said:
EJ has said that 3 scenes are, if not fine, then at least not penalized.
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Note that those are my rules, not @Velorien's. He's nicer than me and doesn't penalize that sort of things. (Or, at least, he hasn't.)
 
Shrooms said:
I'm kind of concerned that if Mari becomes aware enough of the issue she'll just kill herself to resolve it
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I think it's much more likely she'll go try to wash Ami's hair again or something. She was already sick of "walking on eggshells because of Ami's messed-up sister complex", she'd absolutely have no patience for so much more of that. Any plan that involves her — and I do think we should involve her the very next update (but I'm thinking Kei & Snowflake first) — would need to account for that, spend some words on telling her not to go bananas just yet.

I'm not sure if she even re-instantiated the suicidal part of herself.
Shrooms said:
To actually make it a second scene for this update? Idk, the plan is already over 300 words as it is. I'll probably have to rewrite the whole thing with more efficient wording to do that, but I can try I guess.
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Here you go, 226 words:
  • Relay Hazou's conversation with Ami to Kei and Snowflake.
    • Hazou respects Kei's choice to cut ties, so she's welcome to remain uninvolved if she prefers. However, he'd like to discuss the situation with Snowflake, if she is amenable. He wants to know what she and Kei would like to do, and how to best satisfy their, the clan's, and his own preferences.
    • Notably, Ami stated that she'll prioritize Kei's safety over Kei's agency/desires; that'd need to be accounted for.
    • The deal's structure:
      • Hazou commits to the deal.
      • If Mari sacrifices Kei in any capacity, Hazou employs his commitment.
      • If Hazou reneges, Ami uses all her resources to destroy the Gouketsu, regardless of consequences.
    • The commitment needs to be:
      1. Severe enough that Mari wouldn't sacrifice Kei under any circumstances...
      2. Severe enough Ami would believe 1).
      3. Palatable to the rest of the clan — Hazou won't commit without their consent.
    • Possibilities:
      • Pledging the Gouketsu Clan's resources to the Hyuuga.
      • Staging an attack on Orochimaru's Basement.
      • Hazou becomes Ami's vassal, directly.
    • Hazou strongly believes Mari won't sacrifice Kei again regardless, so the contract is mostly to convince Ami a 1% chance is a 0% chance.
    • Perhaps, alternatively, Ami could be persuaded Mari's survival increases the odds of Kei's? Orchestrating the death of a Leaf jounin could put Leaf and Mist at war, or cause internal strife between Leaf clans.
Note the red-coloured text: I believe it could be cut without impacting anything, or just replaced by something like "Discuss the contract suggested by Ami. Note that Hazou won't commit without the clan's approval. What can we use as collateral?: [list of ideas]".
 
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Shrooms said:
There's room for word count optimization here, but this is the kind of approach I would prefer. Essentially, get Kei's help developing a contract Ami would approve of and/or get Kei to realize exactly what Ami is capable of and willing to do, and hopefully talk her out of it.

[X] In Which Hazou Proposes Catastrophic Damage As Damage Control
Word Count: 224
  • Relay Hazou's conversation with Ami to Kei and Snowflake.
    • Hazou respects Kei's choice to cut ties, so she's welcome to remain uninvolved if she prefers. However, he'd like to discuss the situation with Snowflake, if she is amenable. He wants to know what she and Kei would like to do, and how to best satisfy their, the clan's, and his own preferences.
    • Notably, Ami stated that she'll prioritize Kei's safety over Kei's agency/desires; that'd need to be accounted for.
    • The deal's structure:
      • Hazou commits to the deal.
      • If Mari sacrifices Kei in any capacity, Hazou employs his commitment.
      • If Hazou reneges, Ami uses all her resources to destroy the Gouketsu, regardless of consequences.
      • Severe enough that Mari wouldn't sacrifice Kei under any circumstances...
      • Severe enough Ami would believe Mari won't sacrifice Kei.
      • Palatable to the rest of the clan — Hazou won't commit without their consent.
    • Possibilities:
      • Pledging the Gouketsu Clan's resources to the Hyuuga.
      • Staging an attack on Orochimaru's Basement.
      • Hazou becomes Ami's vassal, directly.
    • Hazou strongly believes Mari won't sacrifice Kei again regardless, so the contract is mostly to convince Ami a 1% chance is a 0% chance.
    • Perhaps, alternatively, Ami could be persuaded Mari's survival increases the odds of Kei's? Orchestrating the death of a Leaf jounin could put Leaf and Mist at war, or cause internal strife between Leaf clans.
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Noumero said:
Note the red-coloured text: I believe it could be cut without impacting anything, or just replaced by something like "Discuss the contract suggested by Ami. Note that Hazou won't commit without the clan's approval. What can we use as collateral?: [list of ideas]".
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I would personally prefer to keep this for a couple reasons. For one, to make it easier for Vel. For another, to have Hazou emphasize exactly what's on the line due to Ami's vengeance agenda. If I really need to squeeze more words in after adding a Noburi/Mari/Akane/Kagome scene, that's a good way to slim it down though.
 
Shrooms said:
It's actually a Velorien update tho
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In that case, minor correction.
"And let the record show that my statement is in no way influenced by who posts the next update and [one of the authors who] holds Mari's fate in their hands."

CCnJ: This is a joke, that is meant to be a joke, and is only a joke. This is not a subtle stab at the power differential between QM and player, or an implication of QM unfairness. I have been told, repeatedly --by multiple, independent sources --that I am not a subtle person. Tragic narratives (both large and small) have their own appeal, after all, and we are all acting in good faith for the overall enjoyment of this quest.
 
ProperAttorney said:
Would it be at all possible to split the plan into two scenes instead of just one? A scene for a Kei + Snowflake conversation, and a scene for Mari + Noburi? We do not need to solve this issue on our own. I do not trust that Kei will give any sort of beneficial advice. Hazo believes that Mari made the best decision she could at the time, so for him to not allow her input in this decision seems out of character.

In my ideal world, after we get input from the two pairs, we make a "presentation" to the Goketsu ninja, state the situation, that we tried to solve the issue ourselves but couldn't, and that this is us asking for input, advice, suggestions, etc. Whatever the clan agrees to at that point is what we present to Ami.
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Shrooms said:
There's room for word count optimization here, but this is the kind of approach I would prefer. Essentially, get Kei's help developing a contract Ami would approve of and/or get Kei to realize exactly what Ami is capable of and willing to do, and hopefully talk her out of it.

[X] In Which Hazou Proposes Catastrophic Damage As Damage Control
Word Count: 275
  • Relay Hazou's conversation with Ami to Kei and Snowflake.
    • Hazou respects Kei's choice to cut ties, so she's welcome to remain uninvolved if she prefers. However, he'd like to discuss the situation with Snowflake, if she is amenable. He wants to know what she and Kei would like to do, and how to best satisfy their, the clan's, and his own preferences.
    • Notably, Ami stated that she'll prioritize Kei's safety over Kei's agency/desires; that'd need to be accounted for.
    • The deal's structure:
      • Hazou commits to the deal.
      • If Mari sacrifices Kei in any capacity, Hazou employs his commitment.
      • If Hazou reneges, Ami uses all her resources to destroy the Gouketsu, regardless of consequences.
      • Severe enough that Mari wouldn't sacrifice Kei under any circumstances...
      • Severe enough Ami would believe Mari won't sacrifice Kei.
      • Palatable to the rest of the clan — Hazou won't commit without their consent.
    • Possibilities:
      • Pledging the Gouketsu Clan's resources to the Hyuuga.
      • Staging an attack on Orochimaru's Basement.
      • Hazou becomes Ami's vassal, directly.
    • Hazou strongly believes Mari won't sacrifice Kei again regardless, so the contract is mostly to convince Ami a 1% chance is a 0% chance.
    • Perhaps, alternatively, Ami could be persuaded Mari's survival increases the odds of Kei's? Orchestrating the death of a Leaf jounin could put Leaf and Mist at war, or cause internal strife between Leaf clans.
  • Relay Ami and Snowflake conversations to Akane, Noburi, Mari, and Kagome
    • Probe their opinions on contracts Ami would accept
    • Mari, defend yourself if necessary, but... try not to blow up Leaf or start a war if possible
    • Akane, Mari, you've chatted with Ami often. Do you think Hazou handled things correctly?
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Any further suggestions on what to ask the other Gouketsu or do you just want them looped in?
 
Also, maybe worth bringing Haru and the rest in as well. I know it's technically an Uplift interpersonal issue, but the ramifications affect the entire Goketsu.
 
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