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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Lailoken said:
Hey, clan-to-clan adoptions don't require slips because they don't affect the common tax pool, right? -and Shinobi can elect to evacuate their clan, right?

So, what would happen if Hazou's notoriously unappreciated apprentice sealsmith decided to formally shift allegiances to the Gouketsu? Y'know, the people who appreciate him, educate him, spend vast sums to provide eyewear for him, name world-saving seals after him? The Hags running off to complain to the Hokage who has already seen results from Hazou's new academy curriculum that he's being too good at his assigned task of raising a sealmaster aren't likely to get a lot of traction.
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At a glance, Harumitsu would say 'I wanna be a Goketsu' and Hazou would say 'that's pretty cool, I want you to be a Goketsu' and then the next step is Harumitsu getting his clan head to agree to letting a clan member leave the clan, which, uh, won't happen voluntarily. Even if Harumitsu straight-up runs away to live on the Goketsu Estate, Hagoromo Ritsuo still holds legal power over his life in a way that Asuma dares not touch if he doesn't want the clans to riot, and even if he could the whole point of Hazou teaching Harumitsu sealing was to appease the Hagoromo so turning around and adding Harumitsu to the Goketsu would turn a 'make nice you two' into giving the Hagoromo the middle finger and Asuma's not really in a good enough position to do that when his attention is more focused on maintaining unity in the face of a world war.
 
Either Harumitsu is appreciated or he isn't. I see little evidence to suggest that Harumitsu is anybody more than a neglected member.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
then the next step is Harumitsu getting his clan head to agree to letting a clan member leave the clan, which, uh, won't happen voluntarily
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That isn't a necessary step.
Velorien said:
"Can you even do that?" Hazō demanded, feeling the ground metaphorically shift beneath his feet. "Leave a clan of your own free will?"

"It is an option virtually never exercised," Keiko said, "but yes. In both Mist and Leaf, the Kage foresaw the benefits of allowing it from the beginning, as should a clan engage in treason or other unpatriotic activity, this provides a mechanism for loyal ninja to abandon it and come under the Kage's exclusive authority."

"But then," Hazō objected, "how could punishments like execution work, if you could just leave the clan to avoid them? Uh, not that I'm saying I'd ever execute you. Please stop looking at me like that."

"That concern, too, is accounted for in law, although in Leaf it took the more pragmatic Second Hokage to patch the holes in the legislation. A sentence severe enough to be worth fleeing from, such as execution, must be countersigned by the Hokage to begin with. Then, even should the criminal leave the clan, the Hokage will not obstruct enforcement of a punishment he has already sanctioned."
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Oneiros said:
I think there's a misunderstanding of what this mission actually is supposed to do. Even if the Kraken scroll is not there this is still a valuable mission. We are at war with Cloud. We would be doing a raid deep in there territory, fucking up infrastructure and killing any Cloud nin we find. This is the reason we are proposing the mission. If we find the scroll great. If not we still successfully helped the war and made Asuma happy. I very specifically want to target this scroll for these reasons. Every other scroll hunt is a no go right now because we are at war and as soon as we are healthy should start contributing towards that. If people don't want to suggest this mission to Asuma I would be equally happy taking any mission that Asuma has for us
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Also, we can't blatantly raid into Cloud when we aren't at war. If we don't do this during the war, it isn't going to be done. Or at least it'll have to be a standard infiltration mission rather than a raid. Our team is much more suited to heavy combat than infiltration. So this way plays to their strengths.

Lailoken said:
So, what would happen if Hazou's notoriously unappreciated apprentice sealsmith decided to formally shift allegiances to the Gouketsu?
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Asuma gets fucking pissed? We were supposed to be training the guy to mend fences with the Hags, not poaching him for our clan.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
At a glance, Harumitsu would say 'I wanna be a Goketsu' and Hazou would say 'that's pretty cool, I want you to be a Goketsu' and then the next step is Harumitsu getting his clan head to agree to letting a clan member leave the clan, which, uh, won't happen voluntarily. Even if Harumitsu straight-up runs away to live on the Goketsu Estate, Hagoromo Ritsuo still holds legal power over his life in a way that Asuma dares not touch if he doesn't want the clans to riot, and even if he could the whole point of Hazou teaching Harumitsu sealing was to appease the Hagoromo so turning around and adding Harumitsu to the Goketsu would turn a 'make nice you two' into giving the Hagoromo the middle finger and Asuma's not really in a good enough position to do that when his attention is more focused on maintaining unity in the face of a world war.
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Sir Stompy said:
Also, we can't blatantly raid into Cloud when we aren't at war. If we don't do this during the war, it isn't going to be done. Or at least it'll have to be a standard infiltration mission rather than a raid. Our team is much more suited to heavy combat than infiltration. So this way plays to their strengths.



Asuma gets fucking pissed? We were supposed to be training the guy to mend fences with the Hags, not poaching him for our clan.
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Yeah, how's that going? The Hags decided to unilaterally throw an utterly unprovoked tantrum beyond their jurisdiction over his signed law and express orders during a time of war while pissing off two of his S-Rankers, an elite jounin, two of his strategic superweapons, five of his summoners, and half of the village's power right when they were needed most. I can certainly see him telling them that if they can't keep their house in order it's their problem and stop bothering him with petty dogmatic minutia because people are literally dying right now and the Gouketsu and Nara are doing a hell of a lot more to fix that than they are.
 
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Sir Stompy said:
Asuma gets fucking pissed? We were supposed to be training the guy to mend fences with the Hags, not poaching him for our clan.
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ASUMA: "Only you can take a mentorship and turn it into a political seduction. There's a word for that, you know: treason."

HAZOU: "Hey, just this once, it's not my fault! All I did was treat Harumitsu with an ounce of compassion! The literal bare minimum! You've met him, the kid's practically starving for affection and recognition!"
 
Screw it. Let's have Kagome configure his pressure-activated seals to activate after random numbers of stimuli, write them up on black paper, and slip wads into the soles of the bastard's shoes. He walks into a clan council meeting and halfway to his seat BAM head through the roof. If we do it for every shoe in the estate it'll probably take them a while to catch on to what is happening.

Hey, don't we know a spymaster-in-training whose father is a major cobbler?
 
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Lailoken said:
Screw it. Let's have Kagome configure his pressure-activated seals to activate after random numbers of stimuli, write them up on black paper, and slip wads into the soles of the bastard's shoes. He walks into a clan council meeting and halfway to his seat BAM head through the roof. If we do it for every shoe in the estate it'll probably take them a while to catch on to what is happening.

Hey, don't we know a spymaster-in-training whose father is a major cobbler?
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Ah yes, and I'm sure it'll be very, very challenging for Leaf at large to determine which explosive-loving, Hagoromo-hating Clan was behind the assassination(s).
 
Velorien said:
And anyway, Kei setting Hazō on fire didn't get him to change his behaviour, so I don't know why you'd expect more wisdom from Hagoromo "I'm going to humiliate someone who has half the village backing her over an issue nobody cares about" Ritsuo.
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To be fair get almost enough trauma to making someone a jounin by bashing his head against the eldrich truth dint get hazou to change his behavior.
 
Paperclipped said:
Ah yes, and I'm sure it'll be very, very challenging for Leaf at large to determine which explosive-loving, Hagoromo-hating Clan was behind the assassination(s).
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Dammit. Victimology is the Achilles's heel of only wanting to hurt people who try to hurt you. Perhaps we could tap the new KEI tower requisition officers to insert some into the standard supply stock? Split the profits with them when it becomes clear that only the originators of the skywalker are capable of making safe versions and getting to charge a premium for them?

Nah, Asuma would cotton on pretty quick, and while I'm sure he would appreciate the ingenuity, he's also an inch away from executing Hazou and damn the consequences. Same for Naruto.

We'd need a cats paw. Hey, isn't Ami out of the city? Oh, hey, we still haven't even met the primary Mist ambassador. That's plausible deniability right there. Asuma would have to have a Yamanaka read his mind against clan head rights and the leader of the Yamanaka is, oh, right. Guess he'd have to resort to T&I whose division chief is dating... Oh, right.
 
Better yet, tell uncle that we microscopically transcribed every clan-head secret of the Iron Nerve onto a piece of waxed rice paper which we inserted into their kitchen, so he had better go digging through each of their gastrointestinal tracts as soon as possible before it dissolves.
 
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Lord Marshal said:
To be honest, i'm still confused on how the Minami Massacre happened under this law. I don't see Hiruzen countersigning the Minami's execution orders.

EDIT: this said, stealing another clan member will probably end in a civil war, no clan can accept that precedent.
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Velorien said:
As Hazō understands it, mostly through cultural osmosis:

Technically, it is legal for a clan head to kill a member of their clan. However, there are implications.

First, you've just killed a member of the Leaf armed forces, weakening the village. The Hokage's not going to be happy. He's not going to be thrilled that you're going around judging and executing Leaf ninja yourself either.

Second, you've just killed one of the clanspeople who trusted you to look out for their interests. The clan's not going to be happy.

Third, you lose face. A clan head who has to kill people clearly can't control his clan. A clan head who kills them for bad reasons clearly has poor judgement.

Obviously, context matters. It's one thing to have Hiashi execute Neji for shaming Leaf in front of the entire world at the Chūnin Exam. It's another to execute him for running Hanabi's games nights without permission. The Hokage, the clan, and the village as a whole would be much more sympathetic to one than the other.

For a simplified view of the issue, consider what would happen, in- and out-of-clan, if Hazō adopted and then executed Haru.

As a final note: Most of these issues can be resolved by the clan head taking their miscreant to the Hokage and asking him to empanel a tribunal (typically Hokage + Clan Head + one other person, HDK who) to decide their fate. In the case where the clan head called the tribunal, the person on trial is probably going to end up dead. Doing it this way eliminates the first two problems and balances the "loss of face for not controlling your clan" with "moral courage to abide by the law even when it's against your own clanmember".
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tl;dr Under Konoha law, a clan legally rules over their people, and have the right to do basically whatever the fuck they want to them. Hiashi is legally within his right to kill all the original members of the Minami Clan, as they were legally all Hyuga Clan members and thus subject to his rulings.

The Sandaime Hokage had no reason to give any fucks about the original Minami as they were political non-entities and until Yuna convinced him otherwise the political math ruled that he should just let them all get exterminated.
 
faflec said:
tl;dr Under Konoha law, a clan legally rules over their people, and have the right to do basically whatever the fuck they want to them. Hiashi is legally within his right to kill all the original members of the Minami Clan, as they were legally all Hyuga Clan members and thus subject to his rulings.

The Sandaime Hokage had no reason to give any fucks about the original Minami as they were political non-entities and until Yuna convinced him otherwise the political math ruled that he should just let them all get exterminated
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Please tell me that the other person is Granny the librarian.
 
faflec said:
tl;dr Under Konoha law, a clan legally rules over their people, and have the right to do basically whatever the fuck they want to them. Hiashi is legally within his right to kill all the original members of the Minami Clan, as they were legally all Hyuga Clan members and thus subject to his rulings.

The Sandaime Hokage had no reason to give any fucks about the original Minami as they were political non-entities and until Yuna convinced him otherwise the political math ruled that he should just let them all get exterminated.
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Except a Ninja can give up their clan membership when they want, meaning the second the Clan decides to kill them, they can simply refuse clan membership to become legally clanless Leaf-nin, this is why execution orders must be counter-signed by the Hokage. Now, Sandaime was clearly unwilling to challenge the Hyuuga head on until Yuna convinced him, but if he had the power to stop the Hyuga(And he clearly had it), i don't see him pre-emptively approving of Hiashi murdering the Minami by signing the kill orders, then just changing idea. Especially because the Minami wouldn't consider the Sandamime their saviors if he offically approved of Hiashi putting them to death.
 
RandomOTP said:
ASUMA: "Only you can take a mentorship and turn it into a political seduction. There's a word for that, you know: treason."

HAZOU: "Hey, just this once, it's not my fault! All I did was treat Harumitsu with an ounce of compassion! The literal bare minimum! You've met him, the kid's practically starving for affection and recognition!"
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"Hey, you ordered me into this position. I just gave the kid what everybody deserves. I listened to him. I appreciated his accomplishments. It's not my fault that they emotionally starved a puppy for having poor eyesight when glasses are a thing. You've seen the results of the more inclusive curriculum I independently funded the evidence for. It's not my fault that when a starving puppy finally gets given a scrap of bread they follow you home. This was not my idea. I'll fight to hell and back- and I have literally been to hell and back- to give him the right to make his own decision, but it's his decision, not mine."
 
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