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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Velorien said:
I'm not convinced that 5SB is capable of this, given the range and placement requirements of the secondary seals.
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Velorien said:
A protective seal is placed on an object with a maximum volume determined by the sealcrafter's skill. The target must not possess chakra, or be part of a greater object (e.g. one section of a wall).

While the seal is in place, both it and the object cannot be moved (relative to the centre of the earth), and gain massive damage resistance, enough to be indestructible by any art Kagome knows. This effect lasts for 30 days, gradually decaying over time.

Four equidistant supporting seals must be placed between 3 and 100 metres from the object. If any of these are broken or removed, the object's damage resistance will decrease proportionately. If all four are broken or removed, the Five-Seal Barrier will deactivate. This will also happen if the four supporting seals and the central seal are moved relative to each other in any way.
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Imagine a central wooden support (whatever shape a mining engineer thinks is best) with the central 5SB element applied. The tunnel is 2 m wide so the uptunnel and downtunnel elements are easy but the left and right ones need to be 2 m into the solid earth, we just cast HLaM and swim up to the right spot. If HLaM doesn't work on that soil type we can do the required digging in less than an hour, or just have some Arachnid buddies do it for us. Hazou will probably have a guard detail anyway right?
 
faflec said:
....Have the HOWS done their intended job of keeping the Great Seal from failing completely?
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Well, the multiverse hasn't ended yet...

Sir Stompy said:
The spidersilk? Nothing, just like a skytower, it can be unsupported and fixed in place.
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Expanding on this:

Skytowers are pretty cool. They consist of a spiral of wire (the platform people sit on) with four outriggers (typically wooden rods) woven into it. The central seal element goes on the wire and the secondary elements are on the outriggers. When the seal is activated the wire is frozen in place, and the outriggers which were woven into it are trapped in position. The wire can't fall as long as the outriggers don't move, and the outriggers can't move because they are clamped in place by the wire.

The reason that the outriggers are necessary is because the secondary seals can't go on the same object as the central seal.
 
Sir Stompy said:
Hazou trains a mixed force of Hornets and Arachnids to activate seals, including those who can train others.
  • Have some of the Hornets chosen for the next distraction practice emplacing a 5SB'd line of spidersilk and luring a Dragon to fly through it. Try to get the line of silk as thin as Hornetly possible
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5SB lasts for a month, right? We don't necessarily need the hornets to set it up, we can have some spiders and Hazō set it up well ahead of time.
 
eaglejarl said:
Expanding on this:

Skytowers are pretty cool. They consist of a spiral of wire (the platform people sit on) with four outriggers (typically wooden rods) woven into it. The central seal element goes on the wire and the secondary elements are on the outriggers. When the seal is activated the wire is frozen in place, and the outriggers which were woven into it are trapped in position. The wire can't fall as long as the outriggers don't move, and the outriggers can't move because they are clamped in place by the wire.

The reason that the outriggers are necessary is because the secondary seals can't go on the same object as the central seal.
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Question, our the outriggers we commonly use camouflaged to blend into the sky? Do we have any camouflaged for the Arachnid sky?
Sentient Tree said:
5SB lasts for a month, right? We don't necessarily need the hornets to set it up, we can have some spiders and Hazō set it up well ahead of time.
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Without the complete tunnel, this would require a mission to penetrate deep into Dragon territory so we could set it up, and it would limit our options. With a team of flyers it will take seconds to emplace the 5SB. I'll put a line in where we have mites scout good ambush spots close to the tunnel. That way we could just choose the best one in the moment, IMO it's best to keep the ambush as flexible as possible.
 
Sir Stompy said:
I'll put a line in where we have mites scout good ambush spots close to the tunnel. That way we could just choose the best one in the moment, IMO it's best to keep the ambush as flexible as possible.
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Can we first test them near the mound? I have worries about malfunctions given the ambient chakra levels and general weirdness of the site.
 
Actually, speaking of 5SB platforms...

Could we use 5SBed ninja wire to kill the dragons? Make it look enough like spiderweb that they might just fly through it and then they get flayed instead.
 
Twinnstars said:
Keep in mind shadow clone is still a really strong combat jutsu. Picture keiko throwing stuff at you on a massive battle pangolin. Now picture two keikos throwing stuff at you from different directions on different combat pangolins. Sure, it'd burn like all of her reserves, but throwing stuff doesn't take chakra.
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tl;dr Shadow Clone generally isn't a cost-efficient way to increase combat power because it costs too much chakra.



Keiko currently has 270 CP and a Ranged Weapons of 40. Her combat summons cost between 105-173, with Pantomaimu clocking in at a whopping 227, but let's assume you can find some that are only 100. Shadow Clone has a startup cost of 150, then 25 per clone (so making 1 clone costs 175 CP) then divide your chakra evenly among all instances. You die if you cast it when you don't have enough chakra available for each instance to end up with at least 1 CP. That means that if you are making 1 clone then you need to have at least 177 CP available or you die.

If she tries to produce your scenario of Keiko + 1 Shadow Clone + 2 pangolins, we get:

270 - 100 = 170
170 - 100 = 70
70 - 175 = death

Let's assume she bulks up to 300 CP.

300 - 100 = 200
200 - 100 = 100
100 - 175 = death

What she actually needs is:

380 - 100 = 280
280 - 100 = 180
180 - 175 = 5
5 / 2 = 3 CP for Keiko, 2 for the clone.

You now have two instances of Keiko who cannot chakra boost to empower her attacks, Substitute away from threats, or use techniques. It cost 726 XP to get Keiko from where she is to to 380 CP.

Let's say we want each instance of Keiko to end up with at least 100 CP so that she has enough to fight for a couple of rounds. That means starting with 580 CP, which will cost another 2666 XP and ends up with two Keikos throwing attacks at 40 while standing on a midrange combat summon.

Alternatively, Keiko could spend that 2666 XP on raising her Ranged Weapons to 80.


Shrooms said:
Kumokogo has already fought them, she did so when HOWS was applied and it kinda seemed like she was barely keeping up with one
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Hazō saw her run from one, he didn't see her fight it.
 
Kiba said:
Can a 5SB spidersilk really cut through a body?
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Wikipedia gives 60 micrometers as an upper bound for the diameter of spidersilk.

The thing that determines if something penetrates another material or not is pressure. Pressure is force divided by area. Let's start with calculating force.

The force that a moving object experiences due to deceleration is the object's kinetic energy divided by the distance over which the object stops. I don't know the mass, velocity, or degree to which a dragon's flesh can deflect, but I can talk about me just fine, so I'll do that. I'm more or less 80 kilos, and a reasonable figure for my speed sprinting is going to be 100 meters in 15 seconds, or 6.67 m/s. Let's be extremely generous and suggest that I can deflect five centimeters before I run out of give. So, the force I'd experience running headlong into something is (0.5 * m * v^2) / d = 0.5 * 80 kg * (6.67 m/s)^2 / 0.05 m = 35600 Newtons. (Ouch.)

The cross-sectional area that impacts us is the width of me (call it 30 cm at my stomach?) multiplied by the diameter of the string. That's my width * 60e-6 m = 18e-6 m^2.

That means that the pressure I experience is ((0.5 * my mass * my velocity^2) / my deflection before cutting) / (my width * 60e-6 m) = 1.98e9 Pascals. That's roughly seven times the pressure required to puncture steel, so I think I'm probably in two pieces. Anyone who cares to play with the formula can do so, dropping numbers into it. You can probably even throw it into Wolfram Alpha if you're careful with the units. For a gut-check here, this means that I would need to be able to deflect more than a foot before the situation became one where steel was going to save me.

Please note that this is a very rough calculation that handwaves a very important factor: geometry. If you apply equal pressure to your hand with a brick and with a knife, the knife will cut and the brick will not. This is because you only develop cutting forces at the edges of the brick (you're just bludgeoning in the middle of the brick). I think that the spidersilk is thin enough to largely ignore this, as well as the fact that depending on the flexibility of the material, you might wind up with looking at tensile as opposed to shear strength.

If the mass and velocity of a Dragon scale more aggressively than their toughness - and I imagine they might - then 5SB spidersilk will cut them up pretty badly. If it doesn't, then the spidersilk still isn't going to move and they're going to suffer pretty badly from the collision. If anyone wants to suggest a mass and velocity for a Dragon, as well as an equivalent thickness of steel for their scales/armour, then I can dust out my mechanics of materials textbook and see what the math looks like.
 
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FaintlySorcerous said:
Wikipedia gives 60 micrometers as an upper bound for the diameter of spidersilk.

The thing that determines if something penetrates another material or not is pressure. Pressure is force divided by area. Let's start with calculating force.

The force that a moving object experiences due to deceleration is the object's kinetic energy divided by the distance over which the object stops. I don't know the mass, velocity, or degree to which a dragon's flesh can deflect, but I can talk about me just fine, so I'll do that. I'm more or less 80 kilos, and a reasonable figure for my speed sprinting is going to be 100 meters in 15 seconds, or 6.67 m/s. Let's be extremely generous and suggest that I can deflect five centimeters before I run out of give. So, the force I'd experience running headlong into something is (0.5 * m * v^2) / d = 0.5 * 80 kg * (6.67 m/s)^2 / 0.05 m = 35600 Newtons. (Ouch.)

The cross-sectional area that impacts us is the width of me (call it 30 cm at my stomach?) multiplied by the diameter of the string. That's my width * 60e-6 m = 18e-6 m^2.

That means that the pressure I experience is ((0.5 * my mass * my velocity^2) / my deflection before cutting) / (my width * 60e-6 m) = 1.98e9 Pascals. That's roughly seven times the pressure required to puncture steel, so I think I'm probably in two pieces. Anyone who cares to play with the formula can do so, dropping numbers into it. You can probably even throw it into Wolfram Alpha if you're careful with the units. For a gut-check here, this means that I would need to be able to deflect more than a foot before the situation became one where steel was going to save me.

Please note that this is a very rough calculation that handwaves a very important factor: geometry. If you apply equal pressure to your hand with a brick and with a knife, the knife will cut and the brick will not. This is because you only develop cutting forces at the edges of the brick (you're just bludgeoning in the middle of the brick). I think that the spidersilk is thin enough to largely ignore this, as well as the fact that depending on the flexibility of the material, you might wind up with looking at tensile as opposed to shear strength.

If the mass and velocity of a Dragon scale more aggressively than their toughness - and I imagine they might - then 5SB spidersilk will cut them up pretty badly. If it doesn't, then the spidersilk still isn't going to move and they're going to suffer pretty badly from the collision. If anyone wants to suggest a mass and velocity for a Dragon, as well as an equivalent thickness of steel for their scales/armour, then I can dust out my mechanics of materials textbook and see what the math looks like.
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You also forgot about elasticity and the fact that different components will "give" far different amounts. It is by no means a fair assumption to say that you would stop after five centimeters.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
Wikipedia gives 60 micrometers as an upper bound for the diameter of spidersilk.

The thing that determines if something penetrates another material or not is pressure. Pressure is force divided by area. Let's start with calculating force.

The force that a moving object experiences due to deceleration is the object's kinetic energy divided by the distance over which the object stops. I don't know the mass, velocity, or degree to which a dragon's flesh can deflect, but I can talk about me just fine, so I'll do that. I'm more or less 80 kilos, and a reasonable figure for my speed sprinting is going to be 100 meters in 15 seconds, or 6.67 m/s. Let's be extremely generous and suggest that I can deflect five centimeters before I run out of give. So, the force I'd experience running headlong into something is (0.5 * m * v^2) / d = 0.5 * 80 kg * (6.67 m/s)^2 / 0.05 m = 35600 Newtons. (Ouch.)

The cross-sectional area that impacts us is the width of me (call it 30 cm at my stomach?) multiplied by the diameter of the string. That's my width * 60e-6 m = 18e-6 m^2.

That means that the pressure I experience is ((0.5 * my mass * my velocity^2) / my deflection before cutting) / (my width * 60e-6 m) = 1.98e9 Pascals. That's roughly seven times the pressure required to puncture steel, so I think I'm probably in two pieces. Anyone who cares to play with the formula can do so, dropping numbers into it. You can probably even throw it into Wolfram Alpha if you're careful with the units. For a gut-check here, this means that I would need to be able to deflect more than a foot before the situation became one where steel was going to save me.

Please note that this is a very rough calculation that handwaves a very important factor: geometry. If you apply equal pressure to your hand with a brick and with a knife, the knife will cut and the brick will not. This is because you only develop cutting forces at the edges of the brick (you're just bludgeoning in the middle of the brick). I think that the spidersilk is thin enough to largely ignore this, as well as the fact that depending on the flexibility of the material, you might wind up with looking at tensile as opposed to shear strength.

If the mass and velocity of a Dragon scale more aggressively than their toughness - and I imagine they might - then 5SB spidersilk will cut them up pretty badly. If it doesn't, then the spidersilk still isn't going to move and they're going to suffer pretty badly from the collision. If anyone wants to suggest a mass and velocity for a Dragon, as well as an equivalent thickness of steel for their scales/armour, then I can dust out my mechanics of materials textbook and see what the math looks like.
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Have we made any statement about the thickness of spidersilk as produced by spiders hundreds of times larger than the normal kind?
 
_The_Bomb said:
You also forgot about elasticity and the fact that different components will "give" far different amounts. It is by no means a fair assumption to say that you would stop after five centimeters.
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Strictly speaking flesh would probably fail in combination of shear and tensile stress - I've modelled it pretty strictly shear here.
 
Velorien said:
Have we made any statement about the thickness of spidersilk as produced by spiders hundreds of times larger than the normal kind?
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I don't believe so. If it's thicker than ninja wire we would use that. Ninja wire is still going to be a pretty big fuck you to run into it at full speed.

I wonder what the thinnest thread the Arachnids could produce would be, as spiders can vary the diameter of the thread they produce. It's maybe also worth noting that the figure I quoted was the very upper bound - it went down to 1 micrometer.
 
Oneiros said:
Personally don't expect monster that can fly will be trapped so easily.
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My understanding is that they emerge from a limited space, or that given the thickness of the material, they could be lured into such traps.

Whether or not it'll work is an open question, but the goal isn't to trap them - it's to injure them.
 
Velorien said:
Have we made any statement about the thickness of spidersilk as produced by spiders hundreds of times larger than the normal kind?
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eaglejarl said:
It only took them a couple of minutes before they drew level with the first dwelling, a mound made of walls of tiny panels seemingly hanging unsupported in the air, their shapes interlocking like puzzle pieces that didn't quite touch each other. Only after a close look could Hazō see the superfine strands of silk linking them together.
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Pretty damn thin, it seems.
 
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