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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Lailoken said:
This is the guy who shouted down and lectured all five kage over clanless and civilian rights in front of the assembled world. This is the guy who spent a fortune proving that clanless could be just as good as clan children if given similar support, which is something Asuma has already explicitly admitted was a good idea.

It's kinda in character.

-and while it will cause a whole lot of headaches for everybody and the loophole will promptly be fixed, nobody is going to want to set the precedent of trying to make it retroactive. Hell, we could even have a private conversation and inform Asuma of the plan in advance. He doesn't have any fundamental objections and is kinda used to Hazou doing crazy things which nobody else even thinks of and his major concern would be knowing about it in advance so he could adapt to the situation instead of it suddenly blowing up in his face. Heck, I'd give even odds that he'd consider it hilarious and give Hazou anti-treason points for thinking to warn him in advance and ask his advice. He has the Hyuuga publicly chanting about the Church of Youth in the streets.

Plus, anybody who still feels like winning Akane over, that would be a pretty compelling gesture.
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Personally I think a retroactive loophole fix is actually quite likely, given how touchy this issue is. Adopting into your clan is a direct drain from the income of every other clan and circumventing restrictions around that is really not unlike circumventing the restrictions of their estate to break in and steal their money. When you steal money through direct means you're generally forced to give it back before whatever punishment you receive for stealing, and this is just the legal version of the same thing.

Not only would it be a reasonable treatment to count those kids against Hazou's adoption slots into the future, if not un-Goketsu-ing them altogether, I expect it would be the default assumption for what to do, since the alternative would be to let Hazou just get away with stealing money from every other clan in broad daylight.

Remember that Asuma's patience is one of our rarest and most valuable commodities right now. Even if we somehow cajoled him into letting us keep our ill-gotten gains, we'd have paid for it with a currency much more precious when Hazou's next big mistake hits and we need to convince him not to killbox us again. More likely, we lose both the gains and the patience, and are in a strictly worse situation than before.
 
Yeah, it's a loophole and unlikely to win us any favors from Asuma or the rest of the village. We might be able to get away with snapping up one or two, but I think it's reasonable that people are going to ask pointed questions about why we suddenly decided to start adopting high chakra clanless civvies.
 
FunkyEntropy said:
Yeah, it's a loophole and unlikely to win us any favors from Asuma or the rest of the village. We might be able to get away with snapping up one or two, but I think it's reasonable that people are going to ask pointed questions about why we suddenly decided to start adopting high chakra clanless civvies.
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...whereas instead we could point out that the village is leaving money on the table and propose an equitable system that results in more genin.
 
FaintlySorcerous said:
...whereas instead we could point out that the village is leaving money on the table and propose an equitable system that results in more genin.
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Yeah, I don't think this is an insurmountable problem but we'd have to be really careful about how we phrase it because this is potentially a huge political landmine. With so much on our plate right now I'm not sure it's worth the trouble.
 
FunkyEntropy said:
Haru is indeed a good example of how adopting people who are powerful but aren't gungho about Uplift (and also have not just issues but subscriptions if not entire printing complexes) can create problems.

It's a bit of a risk, but I think using our tickets to get promising academy students could be a smart decision as it means we're picking based on compatability. It also means we can get them hopefully before some of the more toxic aspects of ninja culture can take root and thus make it easier to get them fully on board with Uplift.
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I'm pretty sure Haru was more gung-ho about uplift than almost anyone else we could have adopted. His problem wasn't that he didn't want to help civilians, he donated all his money to help a single town.

Haru's problem was that he didn't see yakuza as civilians. He saw them as scum who preyed on civilians, so of course he didn't think twice about killing them. To Haru, killing yakuza or threatening them in order to protect our civilians was just as in line with uplift as giving people access to medical ninjutsu or putting walls around a settlement.
 
I vaguely remember conflicting statements on adopting academy students. Both that people give you the side eye but getting one or 2 would be possible on one hand, and that You'd need an adoption ticket on the other hand. But not too confident I'm remembering it right
 
Lailoken said:
(or even other countries because other villages weren't even a thing when Leaf was founded)
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The Clan of foreign ninja bringing in more foreign ninja (even if you'd argue they're now Leaf ninja), especially when Leaf has just recently lost a bunch of its heroes, paints a bad picture.

Lailoken said:
Hey, have Noburi's sisters graduated yet?
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Accepting ninja from other villages also seems like a diplomatic blunder. Villages can't afford to maintain positive relationships with people who accept defectors. Not sure if that was what you were getting at with this though.

Oneiros said:
Investing in kids for potential power ups is a losing proposition anyway. Our end game shows up much quicker than they could develop into assets. Frankly we can afford to completely ignore the academy
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While it might not see results within the time scope of this quest, it's still the sort of long term planning combined with naive optimism that fits with everything else Hazō has attempted.


As for the idea of mass recruiting every civilian we can find with the hint of a chakra system..
Non-Ninja Politics
We'd be taking civilians from random villages. Those villages (and the people) are effectively owned by local land owners in some sort of feudal system.
Ninja-Politics
There has to already be a system in place where chakra civilians get recruit to come be ninja. There might be some laws in place that prevent poaching these people already. Even if there aren't, you're stepping on some toes.
Cost
What sort of expense would be involved in taking them in? Would we also be bringing in their parents/families? Does the village cover the cost for students? (Supplies, teachers, facilities, etc)
Age
How old is too old to train? A 25 year old with enough chakra to have been ninja-trainable probably can't reach ninja skill levels before age starts taking its toll. What about 15 or even 20?
Do they have to attend academy by a certain age?

Academy/Ninja status alternatives
Would running a 'Goketsu Remedial Academy for the Chakra-Enhanced' school and training them in-house be a viable strategy? Not having the output be labeled as ninja could actually be a benefit. No friction with other clans over tax income. Possibly way to circumvent restrictions on ninja doing civilian work (Till N' Fill style missions). Still has a chance of creating chakra-capable fighters who can deal with chakra beasts, move quickly, provide ninjutsu utility (MEW), or even mystical palm medical ninjutsu.
 
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Bookgreedy said:
The Clan of foreign ninja bringing in more foreign ninja (even if you'd argue they're now Leaf ninja), especially when Leaf has just recently lost a bunch of its heroes, paints a bad picture.


Accepting ninja from other villages also seems like a diplomatic blunder. Villages can't afford to maintain positive relationships with people who accept defectors. Not sure if that was what you were getting at with this though.


While it might not see results within the time scope of this quest, it's still the sort of long term planning combined with naive optimism that fits with everything else Hazō has attempted.


As for the idea of mass recruiting every civilian we can find with the hint of a chakra system..
Non-Ninja Politics
We'd be taking civilians from random villages. Those villages (and the people) are effectively owned by local land owners in some sort of feudal system.
Ninja-Politics
There has to already be a system in place where chakra civilians get recruit to come be ninja. There might be some laws in place that prevent poaching these people already. Even if there aren't, you're stepping on some toes.
Cost
What sort of expense would be involved in taking them in? Would we also be bringing in their parents/families? Does the village cover the cost for students? (Supplies, teachers, facilities, etc)
Age
How old is too old to train? A 25 year old with enough chakra to have been ninja-trainable probably can't reach ninja skill levels before age starts taking its toll. What about 15 or even 20?
Do they have to attend academy by a certain age?

Academy/Ninja status alternatives
Would running a 'Goketsu Remedial Academy for the Chakra-Enhanced' school and training them in-house be a viable strategy? Not having the output be labeled as ninja could actually be a benefit. No friction with other clans over tax income. Possibly way to circumvent restrictions on ninja doing civilian work (Till N' Fill style missions). Still has a chance of creating chakra-capable fighters who can deal with chakra beasts, move quickly, provide ninjutsu utility (MEW), or even mystical palm medical ninjutsu.
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You'll need to overcome the whole issue with ninja's monopoly on violence.
 
roobee said:
Yeah I saw it. It confirms half of my memory
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I have no recollection of any alternative statements so I'd have a hard time looking through results, but if you want to look for a specific quote it's as easy as using the thread search tool, restricting the posts to those made by eaglejarl or Velorien, and searching for the right terms like "adoption," "academy," and "Honoka." From there you just have to briefly skim until you see something that matches your memory. Right, @faflec?
 
eaglejarl said:
Lots of kids wash out in the first two years, no one washes out after the start of the third year, although there sure are a lot of fatal or nearly fatal training accidents.
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Rumor has it that the academy teachers internally refer to these accidents are Mini-Minamis.
 
Shrooms said:
Man being a teacher in this universe must be even more depressing than just being a ninja. The kids aren't even getting killed in the field at that point, they're just getting murdered by the people they're supposed to be able to trust
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So part of Academy reform is going to be looking into this more deeply and writing a report about it and hoping Asuma taking it more seriously. We'll also need to address the monopoly on violence by letting failed ninja candidate live, somehow.

Right now, all ninja are basically commando tiers warriors. All of them are elite.

That might not make sense in a world where ninja village exists and where people no longer live in individual clans.
 
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Shrooms said:
Man being a teacher in this universe must be even more depressing than just being a ninja. The kids aren't even getting killed in the field at that point, they're just getting murdered by the people they're supposed to be able to trust
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Pragmatically speaking and assuming these are accidents and not accidents, then the job of teacher would eventually self-select for people with little to no empathy.

And if we follow that thought some more, wouldn't teachers with low empathy not be ideal to churn out cute little murder children who will cutely murder other cute little murder children without chickening out for things like, say, empathy?

And hey, since Leaf is one of the better Villages, it's possible the teachers don't even have to accident the children themselves and leave it to ANBU. Because they live in a society.

Honestly, all I wanted to do with the initial post was to shit post but down the rabbit hole we go. :V
 
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Honestly if we start investigating the "accidents" we are likely to wind up on the radar of whatever is MfD version of ROOT. I personally don't wanna go against Rational Not! Danzou without being prepared.
 
Oneiros said:
Honestly if we start investigating the "accidents" we are likely to wind up on the radar of whatever is MfD version of ROOT. I personally don't wanna go against Rational Not! Danzou without being prepared.
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Why would that be the case? I would not imagine that Mist didn't do the same thing, which implies convergence of strategies in the training of ninja.
 
Kiba said:
Why would that be the case? I would not imagine that Mist didn't do the same thing, which implies convergence of strategies in the training of ninja.
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If these are "accidents" and not accidents someone is murdering children and covering it up. So we would be moving against someone who is willing to murder Konoha citizens and doesn't want to be discovered.

Not saying that we shouldn't investigate this but their will be potential consequences that we need to prepare for.
 
Oneiros said:
If these are "accidents" and not accidents someone is murdering children and covering it up. So we would be moving against someone who is willing to murder Konoha citizens and doesn't want to be discovered.

Not saying that we shouldn't investigate this but their will be potential consequences that we need to prepare for.
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I doubt it is a conspiracy, but still nasty if we uncover such a thing.
 
Shrooms said:
I was under the impression it's a "widely known secret" IE everyone knows what's happening but doesn't talk about it. Academy students who aren't up to snuff are overworked so they "wash out" (but of course, in the ninja sense where they die of chakra exhaustion)
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Or they have excuses or justifications. I doubt that there are ROOT operatives lurking behind every corner.

But I still expect a shitstorm if we decide to investigate and follow through.
 
Since the murder of children by their instructors might be the sort of thing that attracts mod attention, threadlocks, and stringent Discord conversations with the QMs, I feel like it would be wise for me to say two things:
  1. The instructors are not murdering their students, these are all accidents caused by children striving for excellence in a very dangerous profession.
  2. It's great that all of you had the reaction "This will not stand. We must investigate and shut it down."
Now, let's all move on to something else, like the search for Summoning Scrolls or how to fix your various relationships.
 
We could research a chakra cuff to limit how much chakra a student can use, preventing death or injuries due to chakra exhaustion though we need to teach them what chakra exhaustion feels like.
 
Kiba said:
We could research a chakra cuff to limit how much chakra a student can use, preventing death or injuries due to chakra exhaustion though we need to teach them what chakra exhaustion feels like.
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Honoka feel chakra exhaustion the first time she activated a seal.
If it's the case that the result of that little experiment is universal for all students and it ends up not hurting them in the long run we can push to have this be oficial policy to teach kids to control their crakra and how exhaustion feels like.
 
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