Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Halberdier · Jul 8, 2021

Velorien said:
You should be furious that Haru has been taking human lives for convenience's sake and calling it Uplift. I should be the one holding you back, trying to persuade you that he deserves a second chance because everyone does. I shouldn't be watching you give lukewarm disapproval to mass murder just because the people that died weren't part of your ingroup. That's not just unyouthful. It's disgusting."

She's not wrong. Not the most charitable characterization, but also not inaccurate enough to not feel bad about.

Velorien said:
Hazō wanted to feel insulted, but the fact that he'd fully lived down to her expectations made that difficult.

That... Is a thing that hurts to identify with and understand.

Velorien said:
"I regret that I have not brought a post-interaction survey form, but I would nonetheless appreciate feedback. I am new to this business of giving advice

We really should have whipped one out and given it to her to give to us. Just on principle. The advice was actually pretty good, and I think the interaction was net beneficial.

Velorien said:
Besides, he was far from done ogling Ino, and a man had to have his priorities.

It is important to have properties.

Velorien said:
Yuno rested Satsuko against a log, then dipped a cloth in a nearby barrel, wrung it out, and used it to wipe herself down in her usual ritual sequence with a strangely meaningful smile.

After a second, Hazō recognised it as Noburi's barrel, as in the one filled with all his chakra and practically an extension of his body. He had no idea what the implications were in terms of physical intimacy, but he was pretty sure they were mindboggling.

Also, he had just conceptualised Noburi's chakra water as a bodily fluid, and he desperately needed to undo that before he next needed a refill.

Huh. I find that cute, weirdly. Until the last paragraph, which really ruins it all. Alas.

Velorien said:
Hazō decided to move on quickly before he showed anything he was thinking whatsoever and the friendly girl with a very sharp axe and no respect for human life got offended.

I'm glad that his instincts from living in the wilderness around dangerous creatures is still serving him well.

Velorien said:
Hazō said, quietly hoping that he wasn't in the process of guiding Yuno into the Kei polycule

I don't see that as likely, though @Vel any bounty for facilitating an instance of two individuals spending time together between the two of them without it being too obvious/heavy handed by Hazou.

Velorien said:
Yuno looked at him in obvious confusion. "But why would you like me?"

Aww. That is heart-breaking, sad, and not the first time I've read that this week. At least this time was in a fictional story. But at least it's informative to Yuno's thought process.

Velorien said:
Believe me, I wasn't the smooth-talking master of charisma you see before you back when Mari first started coaching me."

"Really?"

Yuno is most definitely the only ninja in the clan that would take that at face value. It's cute.

Velorien said:
Far, far too heavy. In theory, this kind of conversation where he got to the bottom of people's problems and fixed them before they grew out of control was the entire point of today's list. In practice, Hazō was weary, because this day was also the definition of starting off on the wrong foot. He didn't have the emotional energy to undo the tangle that was Yuno's self-perception, and if he kept going, it was a certainty that he'd say the wrong thing and make matters worse.

Would the Clear Communication Technique save him? It was certainly worth a shot, and it beat trying to navigate the subtleties of social exchange in his current state.

This is, also, sadly relatable. But I'm very glad Hazou's self-awareness let's him identify his limitation, that could have been worse.

My two main observations from the chapter are: Haru probably has bad experience with Yakuza, or else people he was close to did. The anger and vitriol strike as coming from a place a bit closer to home then normal, or maybe I'm wrong.

And Akane is very right to call out our lacklustre reaction/response, right to call out our delay (though if we had a good reason, I think it would have been mitigated), and partially right to think we were going to easy on Haru.
But, I think the reason for the strong response is that between the fact that she didn't know, that Hazou didn't mention it to her, and that Hazou thought she might know and be accepting our complicit in it, we not only seemed to betray our commitment to uplift (citation needed), but also thought poorly of both her morals and her commitment to uplift. And due to her not knowing, she was, in fact complicit. In her mind. Maybe.

So, she's mad at us because we dropped the ball a couple times in a row. And then we (in her mind, and I can see it) insulted her. And she's also mad at Haru. And she's mad at herself for it happening under her watch. So even if she didn't have a valid reason for wanting space, there's a lot of different layers of anger stacked on one another right now, which doesn't help. Time will at least hopefully help unwind them.

GaBeRock · Jul 8, 2021

With regards to Hazo's internal state... I don't really he needs to be guilty about not properly responding to Haru's actions. Hazo was ethicallythe wrong, and needs to make amends to Akane/punish Haru appropriately, and giving self-excuses would be pointless... but he was also under elevated levels of long-term stress compared to even usual Hazo hijinks, and quite obviously emotionally (and often physically) exhausted, to an extent even paralleling the reaction of the thread-- in an alternate world with less shit going constantly wrong for Hazo, the quest authors could have spent more time talking about the Yakuza in Hazo's internal narrative, implicitly signaling the thread that it was a moral issue that had to be deeply considered. But with so much other stuff going on, the thread, and consequently Hazo, couldn't really be bothered.

So on both the Hazo and Hive-mind level, it's a good reminder about ideals vs. instrumental rationality and what we're willing to sacrifice, and there were strictly better solutions to the issue that Hazo and the Hive Mind overlooked. But the fact that it was 'overlooked' is important-- it wasn't an unforced error. Hazo spent a lot of time looking at a lot of things... and this one fell (emotionally) by the wayside.

apooooop · Jul 8, 2021

[X] The Doomsday Clock Stops for No One

I don't know that I have major concerns with this, my thoughts (presented without need to incorporate, nor with answers, really) ( @Shrooms ):

- is this whiny / hyperbolic?
- are we just missing others handling interpersonal relationships due to the medium (we are experiencing teensy bits of Hazou's life, and mostly only his)
- should we explicitly say something along the lines of "we're managing too much" / worries about expectations / people putting him on a pedestal?

Orisha91 · Jul 8, 2021

Shrooms said:
Kumokogo

If plan to reach the Great Seal is the same as before, Hazou has Implosion Seals for kamikaze troops to wear.

Show proper respect.

Take time to teach seal activation

Not sure if this was addressed. I thought the original idea was to tear the implosion seals?
I don't think Kumokugo of all boss summons, would be okay with learning how to activate seals. Unless I'm missing something.

Lampshade · Jul 8, 2021

On the topic of dragonwar: we could leave the 3D representation of the Great Seal in a highly visible location on the shore nearest to where Whirpool used to be with a sticky note that says "plz fix"

_The_Bomb · Jul 8, 2021

I'd like to make a suggestion to the Hivemind to be seriously considered for the next plan.

Puppies.

We recently learned that snuggling with the dog boss (and the puppies) do wonders for helping Hazo relax. Now is the time to make use of that information. Puppies!

roobee · Jul 8, 2021

Ideas for appeasing Akane

1. We wanted to give Haru the benefit of the doubt at first before being angry at him. Maybe he investigated the yakuza and judged them worthy of execution. If they were all child rapists would you still think Haru unjustified, given that you didn't get angry at Hazou for killing one?
2. We were furious but forced ourselves to not let it show / or calm down. Since anger wouldn't bring the dead back, and might be detrimental to Uplift.
edit:
3. also emphasizing our medical injuries and stress and great seal to justify our "i forgot' excuse. heck, hazou even forgot that he told haru that haru doesn't need to inform hazou on the yakuza stuff

faflec · Jul 8, 2021

roobee said:
Ideas for appeasing Akane

1. We wanted to give Haru the benefit of the doubt at first before being angry at him. Maybe he investigated the yakuza and judged them worthy of execution. If they were all child rapists would you still think Haru unjustified, given that you didn't get angry at Hazou for killing one?
2. We were furious but forced ourselves to not let it show / or calm down. Since anger wouldn't bring the dead back, and might be detrimental to Uplift.
edit:
3. also emphasizing our medical injuries and stress and great seal to justify our "i forgot' excuse. heck, hazou even forgot that he told haru that haru doesn't need to inform hazou on the yakuza stuff

I don't think we want to rationalize our behavior, especially to our moral center.

roobee · Jul 8, 2021

faflec said:
I don't think we want to rationalize our behavior, especially to our moral center.

Why? I'll assume by rationalize you mean giving reasons that are false or self-inferred after the fact? While post-inferring might apply to the "I forgot" excuse, 1 and 2 could be Hazou's conscious reasons that he was thinking about during the event

This is a long shot, but I wonder whether the seal Ami showed in Hazou's prophetic dreams was download. And if so would help with the Great Seal.

faflec · Jul 8, 2021

roobee said:
Why? I'll assume by rationalize you mean giving reasons that are false or self-inferred after the fact? While post-inferring might apply to the "I forgot" excuse, 1 and 2 could be Hazou's conscious reasons that he was thinking about during the event

This is a long shot, but I wonder whether the seal Ami showed in Hazou's prophetic dreams was download. And if so would help with the Great Seal.

I don't think any of the suggested reasons are things that we-the-hivemind came up with, much less reasonings that Hazou would have come up with.

roobee · Jul 8, 2021

faflec said:
I don't think any of the suggested reasons are things that we-the-hivemind came up with, much less reasonings that Hazou would have come up with.

I don't think whether the Hivemind came up with it is very relevant. For what it's worth 1 and 2 were things I thought up of when first hearing Haru murdered Yakuza and personally pondering whether to be gentle with him. However I did not vote for the winning plan, or even read it before it won.

As for whether Hazou would have come up with it. While I don't have an argument for him thinking of 1 and 2 specifically. I'd argue that Hazou is Uplift and therefore it would be in character for him to have had some reasonable justification for being gentle on Haru. What that reason was I dunno, but perhaps 1 and 2 fit.

Also, in the past we have post-facto voted in plans that explained Hazou's reasons for previous actions. Although if you dislike that because it feels too meta that's understandable.

faflec · Jul 8, 2021

roobee said:
I'd argue that Hazou is Uplift and therefore it would be in character for him to have had some reasonable justification for being gentle on Haru.

He already has justification, reasonable or not, he told Akane what it was in the update.

roobee · Jul 8, 2021

faflec said:
He already has justification, reasonable or not, he told Akane what it was in the update.

Yes, but that doesn't have to be his only justification. Especially since Akane stormed away without letting Hazou continue explaining himself. And especially since Akane felt surprised/that Hazou was out of character

Eisenhelm · Jul 8, 2021

if he were to talk to akane i prefer we just leave hazou-pilot to it. he may be frustrated that his sudden rushes of inside failed him but at least it would not taint their dynamic whit our scheming.

roobee · Jul 9, 2021

Adding on to the ideas about Hazou admitting he's wrong to Akane. He can go more specific and ask Haru how many of those deaths/injuries were after Asuma told Hazou about Haru. And take responsibility for those due to his forgetfullness. The specificity could add extra persuasiveness.

edit: another idea of hazou's internal reasons. hazou always intended to get mad at and punish severely haru later. The asking nicely was meant to be a temporary stopgag measure to stop the killings. that way hazou could focus on the great seal, and once all that was done he could slow down and properly take the time to punish haru

_The_Bomb · Jul 9, 2021

eaglejarl said:
Hazō sat down, leaning back against Cannai's warm back, and relaxed. The Boss had given permission for this during one of the many debriefings they'd had while Hazō and the diplomatic team were making their journey to the west; Hazō took care not to abuse the privilege but both of them found it calming. Perhaps a little too calming, actually. The warmth, the soft fur, and the slow rhythm of Cannai's breathing calmed his body's aches a tiny bit and could easily lull him to sleep if he wasn't careful.

Cannai + Puppies = Hazō Destressing

Eisenhelm · Jul 9, 2021

Shrooms said:
Usually I'm fine with feedback but I'm not super excited by the idea of debating the optimal course of action for interpersonal relations this time. So if you have major concerns with the plan please just write your own that reflects what you're looking for bc I don't really feel like discussing it a whole lot

Wording advice is okay tho

[X] The Doomsday Clock Stops for No One
Word Count: 299

Ino

Hazou needs to vent so he can regain focus/better himself. Would you be okay listening?

Hazou agrees with Akane 100%

...but he needs support most when he makes mistakes.

Lately it feels like everyone is closing doors in his face for his fuckups

But it always has to be him fixing interpersonal issues. Akane/Noburi steady the boat but when it's sinking everyone looks to Hazou like he can fix anything

He's no social spec/therapist. Asking for help this time just upset more people.

He's constantly putting out others' fires, but when he burns he feels met with scorn/disappointment. Everyone supports him when he's meeting their self-image of him but when he falls short it feels like it evaporates

Explain whatever else Hazou feels

~~Ami-style training: Try not to cry~~

Kumokogo

Bring HOWS, explain lifespan/how to tell if they need replacing.

Pitch Ami's Crusader idea. How could it be improved?

Condor Scouts are visiting to verify Dragons exist, on Enma's recommendation. Pardon us if that's rude.

Describe landmarks around Rock fort, verify it's the same island/lake Kumokogo described.

Rock would capture/kill Hazou. If Scroll is there, Hazou likely can't access it.

If they have it, why haven't they signed it? Hopefully they train a Sealmaster...

Manage research time expectations.

Any lore/history helps. How long have arachnids guarded it? Did Kumokogo see its creation/meet the Sage?

If plan to reach the Great Seal is the same as before, Hazou has Implosion Seals for kamikaze troops to wear.

Show proper respect.

Take time to teach seal activation.

How frequently can Great Seal be approached with this strategy?

Not expecting much, but Implosion seals could damage lungs if detonated near Dragons' chests.

Apply HOWS to Great Seal, ensure functionality, get out.

Can we sanity check whit Keiko for ideas of reaching the mountain top ?, he did promise to not put his life in danger carelessly and a token effort now saves a lot of drama later.

Lailoken · Jul 9, 2021

Eisenhelm said:
Hazou has been receiving nothing but scoldings as of late.
We need to bring back Hidan to cheer things up.

"Oh, hey buddy! Let's go on a scroll hunt. I'm in the mood to feed Jashin and it turns out that Rock has a supposedly impenetrable fortress built on the only island in the middle of a lake. It sounds like fun. Oh, remind me to show you a maneuver I call the 'lithology drop'."

RandomOTP said:
Let's go get tea with Ino and ask if she can let us vent for a minute?

(As Shrooms suggested on Discord)

No, nonono. The first place Akane went was to ask her best friend Ino for sanctuary. Remember how Ino reacted the first time the two of them got into a fight? Now she's freshly and directly invested. Trying to get a chance to speak with both of them at once is one thing, but anything which might be perceived as trying to privately manipulate her to serve as an end run around reasonability is going to result in an furious glare and Hazou's brain desperately crawling its way out of his ears. Be very afraid of an angry woman protecting her friend from betrayal, especially when she literally and completely deniably can kill with a look.

Orisha91 · Jul 9, 2021

[X] Action Plan: The Constitution!!!
Word Count: 289

Hazou:
Considering Akane's words, Uplift might be Hazou's idea, but he has huge blindspots (ex: He segregated Yakuza from other civilians. He should have been outraged they weren't judged by Uplifts protection and consideration.)

Uplift isn't as formal as it could be. A written document that bounds even the clan head is needed.
- Get the clan's input on crafting this manifesto? Proclamation? Contract?
  - Start with rights and protections for Goketsu ninja and civilians. And other civilians.
Apologize and make amends to those impacted by Haru's actions. Side by Side.
(Burial expenses? Ask the Hagoromo to perform final rites, compensation for lost breadwinners, Seal-food bank help, G.E.D study material)
Also, check-in on the victims of Ikenaga Daiju and his own family. (Are they unfairly ostracized?).
Go to the Yamanaka estate with a list of victims names.
- Maybe you missed something?
- Consult Akane on sufficient punishment.
The Goketsu gardens might have medicinal herbs useful to the clinic and hospital. Instead of hurting people, have Haru catalog them in support of healing?

Kumokogo

Bring HOWS, explain lifespan/how to tell if they need replacing.
Pitch Ami's Crusader idea. How could it be improved?
- Condor Scouts are visiting to verify Dragons exist, on Enma's recommendation.
Describe landmarks around Rock fort, verify it's the same island/lake Kumokogo described.
- Rock would capture/kill Hazou. If Scroll is there, Hazou likely can't access it.
- If they have it, why haven't they signed it? Hopefully they train a Sealmaster...
Manage research time expectations.
- Any lore/history helps. How long have arachnids guarded it? Did Kumokogo see its creation/meet the Sage?
Apply HOWS to Great Seal, ensure functionality, get out.
Brainstorm ways to safely approach and apply seal on mountain with Kei.

Pharos · Jul 9, 2021

Lailoken said:
No, nonono. The first place Akane went was to ask her best friend Ino for sanctuary. Remember how Ino reacted the first time the two of them got into a fight? Now she's freshly and directly invested. Trying to get a chance to speak with both of them at once is one thing, but anything which might be perceived as trying to privately manipulate her to serve as an end run around reasonability is going to result in an furious glare and Hazou's brain desperately crawling its way out of his ears. Be very afraid of an angry woman protecting her friend from betrayal, especially when she literally and completely deniably can kill with a look.

I am incredibly relieved this was pointed out immediately. Upsetting Akane due to our immoral reaction to Haru's actions was a single bad but predictable mistake. Going to Ino right now would be commiting a second predictable mistake.

I predict Ino wouldn't care that much about the deaths of Yakuza due to her upbringing as a clan ninja. But she's also fiercely loyal to her friends, and what we've done here hurt Akane pretty badly. So while I think Ino would agree with how we were going to handle Haru, she'd obviously prioritize Akane's emotional needs while thinking we're stupid for not considering Akane more.

And really, we did make a pretty bad mistake here. On a meta-level, I know why it happened. We're seeing this quest several layers removed, so the deaths of fictional criminals won't evoke nearly the same emotional or moral response. On top of that, I think it's safe to say that this player base is on average not very emotional or moral in the first place.

We've built up Hazou to deeply believe in and care about the ideals of Uplift when I don't know if most of the actual players would believe in Uplift. We'd agree with a lot of it, primarily the continual improvement of living conditions and progress of civilization, and that all lives should be valued and held equal. However, I personally am fine with people dying to accomplish a goal that gets less people killed in the future -- even if those that die are innocent or die unlawfully. I suspect that many other players are the same, and view immoral actions as acceptable for the greater good.

If anything, our lofty Uplift ideals make this problem worse, because we see our long-term goal as the most important thing in the entire world. Eventually solving death would bring a greater net benefit to humanity than acting ethically in the present, so we can always justify our actions as necessary if it gets us closer to our end-game.

This quest would be so so much easier if Hazou and his clan actually shared the values of the players themselves. Hazou is closer to us than normal ninja since we value civilians, but we've driven ourselves into a corner when it comes to morality. I seriously can't think of the last time a player objected to a plan on moral grounds, instead of practical concerns. In any case, it's too late to change the Goketsu's moral code without losing Akane entirely.

To prevent running into moral conflicts in the future, maybe we could hire a player to sanity-check our plans before Hazou even submits them for a sanity-check in-game. It's actually hilarious that the very act of Hazou sanity-checking our plans can still get us into trouble. We need sanity-checks to sanity-check our sanity-checks...

Lord Marshal · Jul 9, 2021

[X] Action Plan: Even Hazous can crack.
Wordcount:391

Hazou:
- Akane is right, you saved Daizen, and you just forgot about civilians?
- This is not Uplift, and you didn't even think about it.
Akane & Ino (OPSEC if necesssary)
- You fucked up. You didn't even realize it.
  - You shouldn't be capable of doing that: An Hazou without Uplift shouldn't even exist.
- It's too much.
  - It's been never-ending parade of impossible tasks and tragedies
  - Ending in a 3d seal built by the Sage to seal an horde of SS-Rank monsters that will kill everything, unless you, the barely chunin sealmaster, fixes it.
    - Orochimaru is Orochimaru, Asuma half-believes it's just a lie and the summons hate you.
- You're streched too thin, and started leaving things behind, because you...just cannot deal with them. You're only one person.
- These are not excuses. You're not special: Jiraiya? Better than you. Many people better than you gave up, in their little ways.
  - You cannot do that, because once you do it and accept it, it's over.
- But it seems just wanting it is not enough, under pressure, it just happens.
- You're scared, because that is worse than dying.
- You understand how much of a betrayal that was not only to her, but also to himself. Whatever action Akane wants to take, you understand.
- But to be clear: You have no intention of giving up. If you break, you just need to pick up the pieces and keep going.
  - If you stop feeling, then you'll just need to fight yourself too to realize Uplift. It's simple as that.
- Thank Akane, without her, you would have never realized it.
- To be sincere, you have no idea what to do. You don't really have a choice.
  - What should you do?
- You wanted to give her time but...the sooner the HOWS are put the better, and well...
  - SS-Rank monsters and all.
Kumokogo
- Bring HOWS, explain lifespan/how to tell if they need replacing.
- Pitch Ami's Crusader idea.
  - Condor Scouts are visiting to verify Dragons exist, on Enma's recommendation. Pardon us if that's rude.
- Describe landmarks around Rock fort, verify it's the same island/lake.
- Manage research time expectations.
  - Any lore helps. How long have arachnids guarded it? Did Kumokogo see its creation?
- Are they allowed to use seals?
  - If yes, explain the Kamizake Implosion Seals Plan
  - Exercise proper respect
- Apply HOWS to Great Seal, ensure functionality, get out.

Sentient Tree · Jul 9, 2021

[X] Action Plan: The Constitution!!!

Eisenhelm · Jul 9, 2021

[X] Action Plan: Even Hazous can crack.

Unaligned Player · Jul 9, 2021

[X] The Doomsday Clock Stops for No One

Guiding Bolt · Jul 9, 2021

I don't fully understand the goal of [] Action Plan: Even Hazous can crack. It reads to me like we're trying to guilt trip Akane just as much as we're trying to resolve the issue.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

gran dutch of douchery

gran dutch of douchery

gran dutch of douchery

Agony that desires to meet Extinction