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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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holy balls man

I just feel sorry for Hazou. Man got his mind put in a blender twice, broke all the bones in his body, got kidnapped by one of the scariest people on the planet, nearly got executed by the Hokage several times, all in a single year, on top of a trillion other traumas probably. And he has to manage not just his own wacky projects, but he's also one of the only clan heads that gives a single fuck about a large portion of the population and is the only currently qualified person to head opposition to the LITERAL END OF THE WORLD.

ON TOP OF THAT he has to constantly keep all the people he loves from killing each other 24/7 because apparently no one else is up to the task, and when he tries to keep things together and can't he just gets shit on. Then when he actually asks for help when talking to other people for once the 2 people who were supposed to help him either bail from the responsibility or take issue with him not handling the situation 100% perfectly and abandon him.

I thought Kei was just being ridiculous with her lofty expectations of Hazou but she might legitimately be the only person in Uplift who actually has a halfway decent level of expectations for him now, because apparently everyone expects him to pull everything together somehow.

 
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Shrooms said:
holy balls man

I just feel sorry for Hazou. Man got his mind put in a blender twice, broke all the bones in his body, got kidnapped by one of the scariest people on the planet, nearly got executed by the Hokage several times, all in a single year, on top of a trillion other traumas probably. And he has to manage not just his own wacky projects, but he's also one of the only clan heads that gives a single fuck about a large portion of the population and is the only currently qualified person to head opposition to the LITERAL END OF THE WORLD.

ON TOP OF THAT he has to constantly keep all the people he loves from killing each other 24/7 because apparently no one else is up to the task, and when he tries to keep things together and can't he just gets shit on. Then when he actually asks for help when talking to other people for once the 2 people who were supposed to help him either bail from the responsibility or take issue with him not handling the situation 100% perfectly and abandon him.

I thought Kei was just being ridiculous with her lofty expectations of Hazou but she might legitimately be the only person in Uplift who actually has a halfway decent level of expectations for him now, because apparently everyone expects him to pull everything together somehow.

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Yeah, it's pretty sad.
 
Velorien said:
But is that even possible? What amount of pain would suffice to serve as equivalent to a death, to dozens of deaths? How does one replicate the pain of so many torn from their homes and families, forced to betray their village, and ultimately abandoned to the merciless hands of the hunter-nin? Or the pain of those left behind? If one were to distil all of that suffering into a single cup, it would certainly kill any who drank of it.
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The solution is odvious, throw Mary into the time loop/afterlife lake of acid for a while.
 
Damn that was cold. Akane's thing. I think delaying things for 3 weeks is very reasonable given the circumstances. Also killing Yakuza being against Uplift....I think there's room for argument there. Poor Haru. Poor Hazou.
 
My honest thoughts about the Haru situation, as a member of the hivemind:

I wasn't thinking about it much at all. I was aware of it, had it on my mental to-do list when I thought of it, but never dug into it, thought about how we ought to feel or what actions would result in what consequences and what consequences we wanted. 'stop Haru' was just another task to do, something to be taken off the to-do list as quickly and casually as it got there.

Hazou speaks of 'not being okay with Haru's behaviour' while also not really having any plans other than getting him to stop it, and I think that meshes with how I was approaching the situation. If you asked me my opinion on Haru's actions I would agree that he was wrong to do them, but I was never prompted - by myself or others - to examine the situation more thoroughly than that, to ask if more should be done than the surface level of stopping the problem.

This is partially excusable, since we genuinely have very important things occupying our attentions and there's only so much attention one can spare in a day, but that's far from a full excuse, as we still sought to resolve the problem without giving it in-depth consideration, when we should have either made time to dig into it or delegated the responsibility to someone with the time/resources and good judgement to resolve the problem in our place.

Hazou's plan for Haru went against the spirit of Uplift, it's true, but if that's the 'what' then just as important is the 'why'. Maintaining the mindset of Uplift is not a given in every circumstance, and circumstances conspired for Hazou to lack that mindset when he approached this problem. The partial excuses mentioned above come into play here, I think, explaining why, when, and in what way Hazou is not an embodiment of Uplift but an imperfect agent of it. This should not be depicted as a 'what can you do?' shrug-and-move-on answer to the question, though, as the correct response to all character imperfections is to strive to surpass and eliminate them, but achieving this level of understanding should allow people - Akane and Hazou alike - to better gauge the magnitude of Hazou's imperfections, gauge and predict and counter as necessary.

In short, Hazou was anti-Uplift by attempting to resolve the Haru situation himself without giving it in-depth moral consideration or delegating to someone who could do so. As with any messup, there are reasons but not excuses for this. Hazou has limits, even in his ability to be Uplifty, and it's his responsibility to know, circumvent, and eventually overcome them. But he also needs help and support for those tasks because he is imperfect.

There is a choice Akane needs to make. It is clear that her expectations for Hazou's ability to serve Uplift exceeded reality, but we can either update our opinions and continue the process of mutual support and growth with newfound understanding... or she can write Hazou off as unsuited for the task, and ask that we step back from directing Uplift. This is not a choice that should be made emotional, or before she has heard what we have to say on the matter, but ultimately they are the only paths forward.

In the meantime, we should dedicate as much spare time and brainpower as the dragonwar allows to letting this sink into Hazou, to help him understand why he approached Haru's situation the way he did, what he should have done instead, and what he can expect out of himself in the future. The dragonwar isn't going away, after all, and while Isan may have concluded there are other demands on his attention, and sooner or later he risks another such situation happening. If he wants to be worthy of leading the Goketsu, of leading Uplift, it behooves him to understand at least himself enough to know when he might be going astray through misconceptions, negligence, bias, or any other confounder on his reasoning.

edit: and since I didn't mention it specifically, Hazou's injuries, particularly the mental ones, weigh in on this too. Whatever his limits are for due diligence and thinking in terms of Uplift, the ol' brain-blender procedure isn't going to help anything.
 
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So, is this a good time to find Tanaka's(the agent we burned during the Sunset Racer mission) daughter, whom he wanted to move to Leaf with, and adopt her if she's willing?

For all of Akane's indignation about not wanting to repeat the Sunset Racer, I don't see her trying to offer any restitution to the victims. The reason is obvious - it would be costly and dangerous to let the information leak - but then she shouldn't be quite so judgemental of Hazou making a different kind of tradeoff when dealing with Haru.

Not that she's not right in practical terms - Haru going behind our back is a big deal and deserves a decisive resolution, and not any of our typical wishy-washiness. But if this sets her off to this extent, then the relationship can't last as it is now. We will do this kind of thing again. It's basically a staple of the quest at this point.
 
I smell a rat.

[X] Plan: Emergency Exit
  • Alert Kagome: We took his warning lightly, now the lupchanz have Akane. Prepare skywalkers, explosives and survival seals for a fast getaway. This is not a drill.
  • Consult with Mari whether it's possible to buy Mist citizenship with Shadow Clone, brush up on cold weather survival if not.
  • Look up a list of missing med nin in case Nob chooses to stay. Ask him to join only when everything is ready. Poison the fish on our way out.
Suddenly, not asking Noburi to share at least some bare bone basics of medical ninjutsu when we were running around the countryside seems damn silly.
 
I honestly see this as another result of the Hivemind's bias leaking through Hazou.

Do we honestly see ourselves reacting the same way to child abusers being brought to justice as immediately on the same level as gangsters dying?

I might be out of line speaking for everyone here, but I don't think we have that same outrage. Of course, correct me if I'm wrong.

And does Akane have a bias towards civilians dying at the hands of shinobi? Sincerely asking.
 
Roomba said:
For all of Akane's indignation about not wanting to repeat the Sunset Racer, I don't see her trying to offer any restitution to the victims. The reason is obvious - it would be costly and dangerous to let the information leak - but then she shouldn't be quite so judgemental of Hazou making a different kind of tradeoff when dealing with Haru.
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I forgot this myself originally, but Akane was the only team member not involved in the Sunset Racer incident. At the time, she was still in hospital in Leaf.

Edit: or am I thinking of a different point in the timeline?
 
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Roomba said:
So, is this a good time to find Tanaka's(the agent we burned during the Sunset Racer mission) daughter, whom he wanted to move to Leaf with, and adopt her if she's willing?

For all of Akane's indignation about not wanting to repeat the Sunset Racer, I don't see her trying to offer any restitution to the victims. The reason is obvious - it would be costly and dangerous to let the information leak - but then she shouldn't be quite so judgemental of Hazou making a different kind of tradeoff when dealing with Haru.

Not that she's not right in practical terms - Haru going behind our back is a big deal and deserves a decisive resolution, and not any of our typical wishy-washiness. But if this sets her off to this extent, then the relationship can't last as it is now. We will do this kind of thing again. It's basically a staple of the quest at this point.
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I think a lot of why Akane is so angry with Hazou is that his response was...basically a "meh". Some of that, with trying to keep Haru from doing something stupid in response, I agree with that. But the rest of it...I don't really blame Akane for reacting so angrily when our response was so underwhelming compared to what happened.

I mean, imagine if it were Mai having done what Haru did. Would the hivemind seriously have acted like, any differently?
 
Can the next plan give Hazou a solid day of proper mopping
[x] Action plan: Naval gazing and despair

Noburi:

  • you are acting clan head for today.
  • if we are not up by breakfast the day past tomorrow you can drag us out by whatever means.
Hazou:

  1. Do whatever feels right to unwind in his room.
- reflect on
  1. what does uplift mean to him?
  2. what would he be willing to sacrifice for uplift, leaf, the resurrection project and his family? Not in the ethereal way, have a proper list of what would be acceptable losses, there will be a test sometime in the future.
  3. Is killing criminals wrong? Is killing civilians for the greater good right? What would be a proper punishment for Haru according to his criteria
 
Hi, new member of the hivemind here. Recently caught up as of about a week ago, and having observed thread chatter for the past couple of updates I think I might need a primer on thread culture/assumptions since I don't want to step on any toes since this is a pretty long running quest.

faflec said:
I think a lot of why Akane is so angry with Hazou is that his response was...basically a "meh". Some of that, with trying to keep Haru from doing something stupid in response, I agree with that. But the rest of it...I don't really blame Akane for reacting so angrily when our response was so underwhelming compared to what happened.

I mean, imagine if it were Mai having done what Haru did. Would the hivemind seriously have acted like, any differently?
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Akane was right to call Hazo out for it because ninja killing civvies because it's convenient and then justifying it with a, "meh, I think they're bad people who probably deserved it but who cares really" is...not quite fitting with the ideals of Team Uplift. Like, Haru's not wrong that they're yakuza (and thus prey upon other civvies, which is a problem that needs addressing) but killing them because they're probably bad people is not the correct way to go about it.
 
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faflec said:
I think a lot of why Akane is so angry with Hazou is that his response was...basically a "meh". Some of that, with trying to keep Haru from doing something stupid in response, I agree with that. But the rest of it...I don't really blame Akane for reacting so angrily when our response was so underwhelming compared to what happened.

I mean, imagine if it were Mai having done what Haru did. Would the hivemind seriously have acted like, any differently?
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We would've probably done something sooner, because it would've been simpler to address. Fundamentally though, it would've gotten an equally low priority relative to all the other stuff.

Incidentally, how much of Akane's outrage do you think is down to the yakuza being specifically civilians? Like, if they were missing-nin or Rock ninja, would she equally care? I wonder if the values dissonance comes from the fact that, for us, there really is no difference, while for Akane there might be.
 
Roomba said:
We would've probably done something sooner, because it would've been simpler to address. Fundamentally though, it would've gotten an equally low priority relative to all the other stuff.

Incidentally, how much of Akane's outrage do you think is down to the yakuza being specifically civilians? Like, if they were missing-nin or Rock ninja, would she equally care? I wonder if the values dissonance comes from the fact that, for us, there really is no difference, while for Akane there might be.
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Velorien said:
"They are civilians," Akane snapped. "Not that it would matter if they weren't. If they're criminals, that means they should be judged by the law. Nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't give you the right to murder people who have their own lives and thoughts and feelings, and a chance for redemption which you're taking away from them. Nothing can give you that right.
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I know she's the one saying it, but I don't think she really would have said anything different if they were ... uh ... random Leaf ninja who were abusing their power but the Hokage somehow didn't give a fuck that we killed them (please ignore the contradictions). Her point is that murdering people for power is anti-Uplift, and that the argument "but they're bad people" doesn't justify it since if they ARE bad people then they should just be turned in and for the law to decide judgment.
 
Velorien said:
After a second, Hazō recognised it as Noburi's barrel, as in the one filled with all his chakra and practically an extension of his body. He had no idea what the implications were in terms of physical intimacy, but he was pretty sure they were mindboggling.
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Forget first base, second base, third base, Yuno's already to the *barrel* base.
 
My primary complain for what happened is not akane's reaction, that is consistent whit her world view, but the fact that the player base don't realy know who they are playing as. The plan makers have gotten very good at taking the npc agencies into account when it comes to our schemes but we have no idea whether something is out of character for Hazou to do regarding uplift as we have no idea what his boundaries or priorities are. Keiko scold him because is disinterest in helping isan, akane schold him because his lack of reaction regarding Haru killing civilians the same as he was scolded for trying to ally whit orochimaru. In the past we have needed to be reminded of other characters opinions as we were disregarding them in our effort to secure something beneficial to us, in this particular case we took the value of having Haru in our rooster above that of civilian lives as we have other things to do, that is why I have been promoting letting hazou-pilot do some self-reflection in order to have a point of reference of his character a little fresher in our minds and therefore something to focus our plans on, I think this takes precedence over trying to mend thinks whit Akane as we need to know what would hazoupilot consider acceptable or not (that would come up in the conversation and he would go slack jaw as the collection of minds that he currently is will have no idea how to answer that), if we keep treating this character as a way to move thing around in the story instead of the person that other characters see him as he would keep being over estimated by his clanmates. If you want a more mercenary approach then the fact that this chapter is called "out of character"
 
Usually I'm fine with feedback but I'm not super excited by the idea of debating the optimal course of action for interpersonal relations this time. So if you have major concerns with the plan please just write your own that reflects what you're looking for bc I don't really feel like discussing it a whole lot

Wording advice is okay tho

[X] The Doomsday Clock Stops for No One
Word Count: 292
  • Ino
    • Hazou needs to vent to regain focus/better himself. Would you be okay listening?
    • Hazou agrees with Akane 100%, doesn't want this to be a "sides" thing
      • He needs support most when he makes mistakes.
      • It feels like everyone's closing doors in his face for his fuckups
        • But it always has to be him fixing interpersonal issues. Akane/Noburi steady the boat but when it's sinking everyone looks to Hazou like he can fix anything
          • He's no social spec/therapist. Asking for help this time upset more people.
          • He's constantly putting out others' fires, but when he burns he feels met with scorn/disappointment. Everyone supports him when he's meeting their self-image of him but when he falls short it feels like it evaporates
    • Explain whatever else Hazou feels
    • Ami-style training: Try not to cry
  • Kumokogo
    • Pitch Ami's Crusader idea. How could it be improved?
      • Condor Scouts are visiting to verify Dragons exist, on Enma's recommendation. Pardon us if that's rude.
    • Describe landmarks around Rock fort, verify it's the same island/lake Kumokogo described.
      • Rock would capture/kill Hazou. If Scroll is there, Hazou likely can't access it.
      • If they have it, why haven't they signed it? Hopefully they train a Sealmaster...
    • Manage research time expectations.
      • Any lore/history helps. How long have arachnids guarded it? Did Kumokogo see its creation/meet the Sage?
    • Can we take a sample of the Great Seal?
    • If plan to reach the Great Seal is the same as before, Hazou has Implosion Seals for sacrificial troops to wear (if it's not forbidden). Not expecting much, but Implosion seals could damage lungs if detonated near Dragons' chests.
      • Show proper respect.
      • Is this depleting your population?
    • Apply HOWS to Great Seal, ensure functionality, get out.
 
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