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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Cariyaga said:
On the other hand, we recently saved 200 civilians, and our influence created the mission type of Till 'n' Fills.
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This establishes some sort of equilibrium of the scales, to be sure, but short of actual necromancy and maybe starting Neo-Akatsuki and doing their insane master plan *right* I don't think these necessarily cancel out.

Basically what I'm saying is we should get started on necromancy. True Resurrection ahoy baby!
 
MMKII said:
I'm confused. Do you think we're anywhere near the bottom quartile given the average track record?

An argument could be made that we're decently close, given that our greatest sins are, in order:

1) Creating a situation in which Akatsuki had a high probability of failing. (Arguable, depends on if their plan worked/was actually a good solution.)

2) The Pangolin Deal

3) The Sunset Racer

But I don't think thats quite likely.
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We created a new bottom compared to the current situation(not past ones).
On 1, i consider putting the burden of Akatsuki falling on us unfair for many, varied reason,(And if that was on us, it's also on almost every single ninja of the EMs, so it would be meaningless by virtue of everyone being responsible).
It's 2 that's kinda the problem(While also being a gigantic outlier), and put us straight at the bottom.(Also the fact that Jiraiya and almost everyone else is dead, so J can't take the spot from us).
The reason is simple: The average Ninja of Konoha simply cannot surpass the sheer scale of Pangolin Deal(Not for lack of trying, mind you) aside from starting a war with the rest of the EMs, it's not that they wouldn't, it's that they don't have the capability to do so.(The ones that did so being already dead).
By the same token, everything good we do that as normal ninja does cannot surpass the Pangolin Deal.

This is a simple judgement of scale, as far as results go, an"Ops, that wasn't in the plan" that sink a continent it's worse than a serial killer that murders people all his life.
This is also why i don't judge morality only by results.


eaglejarl said:
Hm, this is actually a really interesting question.

@Lord Marshal and @No-one of Importance , could you each please outline what specifically evil actions Hazō has taken and which principles you think he has sacrificed? The conversation will go a lot faster if it's specific instead of general. Also, do you consider him to be 100% harmful, or has he ever done anything that you believe has improved the world directly or indirectly?
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My position is not that Hazou is evil or has sacrificed his principles, but that as far as results goes, he's that bad simply because the Pangolin Deal scale is above the normal ninja.
To be more clear: it's like a normal person suddenly destroy a planet populated with life, and then goes on normally, that action is on a scale so big(compared to his normal action) that, as far as results go, crush everything else under it's weight.
It's completely unfair, and it judges only the result("But i didn't know that red button would destroy a planet"), but it's also a fact: a screw-up at a national level is worse than an horrible life at a personal one.
 
No-one of Importance said:
Posting here I generally try to keep from criticizing or voting because I don't have the time or interest to put into learning the mechanics and lore to the required level. In light of the recent debacle I realize this isn't always the right path to take and feel I should express some of my perspectives on the problems here.
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I'd like to thank you for sharing your opinion. Stating something that seems to go against the prevailant opinion isn't always easy.

No-one of Importance said:
However I don't feel like utopian visions are always the motivation behind the ruthless decisions. I think there's a lot of pride there. Losing the Pangolin Scroll would make the thread and viewpoint characters look and feel uncool for example, so reasons are found to justify continuing the arms sales.
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In the particular instance of the pangolin deal, quite a lot of discussion was had. The argument that I find convincing against drastic action on Hazou's part (as in, run away with the scroll etc.) is that Jiraiya could have effortlessly kept up the trade even without us through his Toad summons.

The thread discussed a lot about how to make the deal unneccessary by procuring different income streams, as J needed money in his search for Akatsuki/Naruto. I don't think we could have dissuaded him without alternate income, but I may be wrong here.
In hindsight, we probably could have done more income-procuring stuff (grumble grumble should have listened to @Lailoken grumble).

Can you point to other decisions that you believe to have been unduly influenced by pride or similar?

No-one of Importance said:
Further everything the thread wants to do to help civilians is something that doesn't cost them anything they really care about, like their pride or feelings of power. Hazou working himself ragged in disaster relief or giving away mountains of money (that doesn't exist, and was earned in-game with cool schemes people wanted to pull off anyway) doesn't matter.
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This seems a bit uncharitable.

I think that, faced with a decision between saving Hazou's pride and improving lifes, the thread would in general vote to improve lifes.

The part about power is hard to make a judgement on for me, since Hazou's power is related to his ability to help other people. So sacrificing power may end up resulting in a worse outcome in the long run. It's a thing that needs to be judged case by case imo.

No-one of Importance said:
It feels like his 'uplift' kick is only an attempt to morally justify whatever horrible-but-clever thing the thread wants to do in hindsight, which I'm very uncomfortable with the implications of.
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What horrible-but-clever things has Hazou done and then justified with being for the greater good?
I won't say the thread doesn't come up with ideas that would qualify, I don't think those end up in plans however (we have never even tested whether implosion nukes work).

No-one of Importance said:
I feel the recent treatment of Hiashi is an emblematic scapegoating of that attitude. Does he represent bad things? Absolutely, but so does Hazou. More level headed characters like Tsunade see him as a step back compared to Hiruzen or Asuma but nothing like the apocalyptic threat to all that is good the thread seems to treat him as. He's a classist, and an isolationist, but he cares about Konoha and could be rationally bargained with. (He's also far from the decisive obstacle to world peace or worldwide humanitarian movements, there are four other Kage to deal with, Akatsuki and the Minor Villages.) I see a lot of space to negotiate with for civilian welfare, clanless rights or peace initiatives given the other sympathetic forces in Konoha (Naruto, Shikamaru, Asuma, Tsunade) and material benefits to Konoha's security that could be provided. However I've seen assassination discussed here and further undermining of Konoha's traditions for peaceful transitions of power.
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My personal opinion is that we simply don't know enough about Hiashi (or Asuma) to properly judge what position he would occupy on the evil-tyrant-scale (My personal estimate is close to yours).

What information we have makes me heavily favor Asuma over Hiashi:
The Minori hate the Hyuuga with good reason, the Uchiha are forced into cooperation by the Hyuuga, Hiashi believes war to be inevitable (meaning he's probably gonna start the war since ninja-warfare seems to majorly favor the aggressor).

Maybe we'll get more information from the clan meetings.

No-one of Importance said:
The Pangolin sales would have continued to fund the election if Keiko hadn't stood up
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Yeah, my model of the thread may have kept the deal until after the election. Depends on if the whole economics stuff would have happened and other factors I am to tired to think through. From the current perspective I would have considered such a decison wrong.
 
Torpling said:
Yeah, my model of the thread may have kept the deal until after the election. Depends on if the whole economics stuff would have happened and other factors I am to tired to think through. From the current perspective I would have considered such a decison wrong.
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What we where actually trying to do before Keiko decided to defect was to use our position of controlling several summon scrolls was to empower multiple clans to stop war from occurring on the 7th path. We also planned on creating a universal human rights + Geneva convention to protect the other clans. I still think this is the correct decision
 
Torpling said:
What information we have makes me heavily favor Asuma over Hiashi:
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Don't forget his absolute inane speech in favor of this worlds current state of affairs, made to Nagato.

I would argue that alone is sufficient evidence to put him in the "Over my dead body" camp, depending on your reading.
 
Naruto is 15 (October 10 th AKA Kyuubi Day, unless thats changed). He's older than 'zou (June 27th) by a bit over 8 months (depending on how the EN calendar is lol). Hazou, Keiko and Noburi are pretty much runts of their year age-wise, I think. All of them are born in the summer (Keiko: June 3rd, Noburi: August 5th).

Given that the Lee group (Akane fits here) is about a year older than Naruto's year, this makes Rock Lee 16 (November 27th, unless thats changed) and exactly 19 months older than Hazou.

Akane's birthday is February 3rd. Either she's turning 17 next month because she's older than Lee, or she's turning 16 next month because she's slightly younger than Lee. I can't remember what her current age is exactly.
 
MMKII said:
Naruto is 15 (October 10 th AKA Kyuubi Day, unless thats changed). He's older than 'zou (June 27th) by a bit over 8 months (depending on how the EN calendar is lol). Hazou, Keiko and Noburi are pretty much runts of their year age-wise, I think. All of them are born in the summer (Keiko: June 3rd, Noburi: August 5th).

Given that the Lee group (Akane fits here) is about a year older than Naruto's year, this makes Rock Lee 16 (November 27th, unless thats changed) and exactly 19 months older than Hazou.

Akane's birthday is February 3rd. Either she's turning 17 next month because she's older than Lee, or she's turning 16 next month because she's slightly younger than Lee. I can't remember what her current age is exactly.
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faflec said:
Ignore this post, please.

Hazou, Keiko, and Noburi are 14 as of this post. Akane is 16 as of this post.
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Gonna go update this post, actually.
 
faflec said:
What the fuck...

You know what, fuck it. Let's ask Naruto to help with the Hagoromo. If he's worth R1.5 billion there's no goddamn reason he shouldn't be helping out.
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Keep in mind that this involved some assumption, like 5% compound interest rate and a competent money manager. Others have yet to chime in.

But even if there is no compound interest growth, Naruto is still richer than god. And that's without taking into account Jiraiya's wealth.
 
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Kiba said:
Using Rhakiu's analysis as a starting point, I have estimated naruto's fortune to be about 1.5 billion ryo from his parents alone.
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Lets be more pessimistic, increasingly so:

1) Let us assume that the 860,000,000 ryo value from Kushina + Minato is correct. Lets assume that Minato (really J and Hiruzen, since its what he would have wanted) was a swell dude and donated 25% worth of this posthumously to ease the Kyuubi attack destruction. This gives us 645,000,000 ryo to work with as principle. Which yields (at 5% interest rate per year) about 1.2 billion ryo.

2) Perhaps we were not pessimistic enough. Maybe that interest rate is really 2% after misc. expenses (perhaps keeping investments afloat in ninja deathworld is a pretty expensive endeavor, and/or Naruto spends money like a fiend). This gives 830 million ryo.

3) Perhaps we were not pessimistic enough. Maybe the Uzumaki were shit-broke by the time he was born. Subtract 300 million at the start. After the Kyuubi donations, this would come out to 420 mil ryo, and after 13-ish years at that crappy interest rate it comes out to 540 mil ryo.


Well, even in 3), Naruto should have approximately enough dosh tied up somewhere that liquidating a fifth of it would pay off our mortgage and keep our Hagoromo debt paid for 2 years.

Perhaps the J-man was just too prideful to ask him for a loan to buy the compound with to begin with? :p

(Does Naruto have a clan compound?)
 
MMKII said:
Lets be more pessimistic, increasingly so:

1) Let us assume that the 860,000,000 ryo value from Kushina + Minato is correct. Lets assume that Minato (really J and Hiruzen, since its what he would have wanted) was a swell dude and donated 25% worth of this posthumously to ease the Kyuubi attack destruction. This gives us 645,000,000 ryo to work with as principle. Which yields (at 5% interest rate per year) about 1.2 billion ryo.

2) Perhaps we were not pessimistic enough. Maybe that interest rate is really 2% after misc. expenses (perhaps keeping investments afloat in ninja deathworld is a pretty expensive endeavor, and/or Naruto spends money like a fiend). This gives 830 million ryo.

3) Perhaps we were not pessimistic enough. Maybe the Uzumaki were shit-broke by the time he was born. Subtract 300 million at the start. After the Kyuubi donations, this would come out to 420 mil ryo, and after 13-ish years at that crappy interest rate it comes out to 540 mil ryo.


Well, even in 3), Naruto should have approximately enough dosh tied up somewhere that liquidating a fifth of it would pay off our mortgage and keep our Hagoromo debt paid for 2 years.

Perhaps the J-man was just too prideful to ask him for a loan to buy the compound with to begin with? :p

(Does Naruto have a clan compound?)
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Maybe Naruto is the guy we're making loan payments too.
 
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