The Hagoromo are only selling one vote here. They vote with us for Hokage and then their obligations are done and all that's left is us in debt to them. Furthermore, if we want to parade this deal around and brag about how great we are because of it, well, keep in mind that it's a deal where we bought another clan's vote on the Hokage election. That's not treason but blatantly saying in the open that you reduced the Hokage vote to money changing hands is not good rep.
 
Having a clan think Uplift is responsible for their salvation is worth millions. If we let ISC pay half of it they will get all the credit. We will be sacrificing huge political gains which we can't buy for minimal amounts of Hazō's time.

I don't care about personal political gain more than electing Asuma. We need all the margins we can get.
 
What do people think about the idea of agreeing to give Hiashi the hat in exchange for a laundry list of concessions?

I am personally of the opinion that if we can get Hiashi to make an agreement, he'll probably abide by it. We're also in a position right now to flip things so that he wins. We may be able to bargain some pretty great help for uplift out of him if that's what's needed for him to get the hat, maybe more than Asuma would give us.
 
@faflec, do you have the numbers for the money we could make with skywalkers somewhere?

Edit: We should ask Akane's family for some basic cost of living numbers before they became clan members. @Rihaku, others, do you have estimates on CoL for a civilian? I vaguely recall a number near R4000 /mo being thrown around.
 
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What do people think about the idea of agreeing to give Hiashi the hat in exchange for a laundry list of concessions?

I am personally of the opinion that if we can get Hiashi to make an agreement, he'll probably abide by it. We're also in a position right now to flip things so that he wins. We may be able to bargain some pretty great help for uplift out of him if that's what's needed for him to get the hat, maybe more than Asuma would give us.
For me to agree with this I would need a) A list of said concessions; b) To be convinced Hiashi would actually follow through with them; and c) To be convinced Hiashi will not screw us over in some other way. a) is going to be based on the players, and I won't comment until such a list is made. b) is...I don't see him doing it, unless said concessions are hilariously low-costing for him. c) ...hahhahaa.
 
@faflec, do you have the numbers for the money we could make with skywalkers somewhere?
Yes, thank you for the reminder.

Our current and tentative thinking is that skywalkers are classed as jōnin seals + 50%. We'll let that hang there for a bit in case there's a reason it doesn't make sense but, barring such an issue being noticed, that's what we'll go with.
Price per Jounin-Grade Seal Element R2290
150% of R2290 is R3435, per Skywalker element. Since those take 5 minutes to make, we are actually making R687 per minute, which sums out to R41220 per hour. Kagome said he'd be working 50hr a month for Skywalkers in a dubiously valid post earlier; if we take that assumption he'd be making us R2061000 a month. That's enough for the Hagoromo deal if we did it ourselves, plus <10% of our mortgage. Keep in mind Hazou can also contribute at the same rate as Kagome.
 
@faflec, do you have the numbers for the money we could make with skywalkers somewhere?

15% of R2.17 billion of Clan Benefits is R325.5 million, so R27 million / month is spent on the Equipment Stipend for clans, if 90% of that is seals then R24.3 million, if we add ~20% for mission-specific and non-clan use then it would be a total Sealing Budget of R29.19 million in an average month, but the Kage can raise this by almost however much they want if they feel like accumulating Seals.
They won't run out of money as long as the Kage wants more Skywalkers (see my earlier post), since there isn't a Kage right now, it depends on a number of political factors. In-character, it makes sense for the govt to be stockpiling Skywalkers, so they could have up to R250 million extra to spend on the matter, on top of a projected monthly budget of R29.9 million. You could easily defend any number of % distributions of that 29.9 million budget, I don't think 50% for Skywalkers would be out of line if they are actively trying to stockpile them.

Here you go!
 
Gods, I love all of you who can efficiently get information from the thread. It's one of my weak spots, even if using that info is not.

Edit: I was looking for both :p
 
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Please note that the above estimate, while it is derived from the economic modeling used to construct the Leaf economy, has not been confirmed or disconfirmed by the GMs yet. For example, the Kage could purchase seals at a below-market rate using Monopsony power and mark up those same seals in "selling them" to the Clan Stipend fund. I assume they do not do this because

1) the Kage can already print money / use fractional reserve banking (of which they have exclusive access) + sell bonds + has a large budget surplus from unclaimed Clan Benefits (i.e. no shortage of less confrontational ways to get money) and

2) the vast majority of the Kage's revenues are funneled to the Clans, the Kage and Clans are basically in a symbiotic relationship where the unified Clans have the upper hand, and they would very quickly sniff out any attempts by the Kage to cheat them as a collective.* (i.e. significant costs of actually utilizing monopsony power)

*Most Sealmasters are clan, they'd quickly figure out that the costs in the Equipment Stipend are not the costs they're being paid, it would be low-hanging fruit in the interests of all clans to seize, as most clans have sealmasters but all clans use seals
 
Salt and ice are valuable commodities in modest quantities but scaling them to the point where they'd compete with arms manufacturing would drive the local price so low that your margins would evaporate. Even if you could get a distribution network in place to spread out the impact, transportation and administration costs would eat further into your profits. It would be difficult to generate more than R1-2 million in profits a month with such efforts.

Rihaku, is this our likely maximum of sustainable income, after we set marginal cost to marginal price and after the glut of supply has lowered prices, or is this unsustainable income from before price elasticity has kicked in and lowered the price of ice and salt?
 
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The Gōketsu mortgage
In mint condition, your property would be worth R102,300,000.

Jiraiya got it half off, with a 10-year mortgage of R51,150,000 principal with a R5,000,000 down payment and a 12.5% annual interest rate.

Your monthly mortgage payment is R675,526

Between the mortgage and our current Hagoromo debt, we need to pay R2,675,526 monthly, which is kinda pricey.

At R687 per minute, we could smith enough Skywalkers to cover everything in 3895 minutes (65 hours each month - divided however between Hazou and Kagome)

We also get R38,270 in cash every month (not counting missions), which is 56 minutes of Skywalker smithing time.

If we take the Nara deal of reducing our portion of the Hagoromo debt in half, then we would only need 41 hours each month of seal smithing.

If we build a war chest of R51,150,000 (1,241 hours) we can eliminate our mortgage, save money on the interest longterm, and combined with Nara assuming half the debt of the Hagoromo deal means we'll only need to pay R1,000,000 each month - which comes out to 24 hours of Skywalker smithing each month.

Noteworthy, we probably still have at least R9.5-8,000,000 sitting in the bank.

Really, we should pay as large a chunk of the mortgage as we can since reducing it early substantially reduces our overall expense and monthly payments since it has a 12.5% interest rate.

We really need to find out if the cost of funding a mission is a greater cost than the 50% bonus clans get on missions.

For illustration, if a mission costs R100 and we complete it then we get R150. If it only costs R125 to fund then we should fund a whole bunch of missions that we take ourselves so that we can get our conditional payments. Though, I'll note, that if it costs more than R130 (illustrative, not actual) once we reach the subsistence non-taxed amount (R42,400, actual) from missions we would no longer make a profit - but we'd only reach that amount after earning total mission pay (including the 50% bonus) of R318,000 (actual).
 
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For illustration, if a mission costs R100 and we complete it then we get R150. If it only costs R125 to fund then we should fund a whole bunch of missions that we take ourselves so that we can get our conditional payments. Though, I'll note, that if it costs more than R130 (illustrative, not actual) once we reach the subsistence non-taxed amount (R42,400, actual) from missions we would no longer make a profit - but we'd only reach that amount after earning total mission pay (including the 50% bonus) of R318,000 (actual).
IIRC this was suggested earlier and the general concern was that there would probably be systems put in place to keep from abusing this.
 
What do people think about the idea of agreeing to give Hiashi the hat in exchange for a laundry list of concessions?

I am personally of the opinion that if we can get Hiashi to make an agreement, he'll probably abide by it. We're also in a position right now to flip things so that he wins. We may be able to bargain some pretty great help for uplift out of him if that's what's needed for him to get the hat, maybe more than Asuma would give us.

The most important thing for Hiashi to be doing is international diplomacy and making sure world war doesn't break out. Instead, he's demonstrating himself to be fearful of betrayal and dismissive of Asuma's effort for peace.

We can work around Hiashi's obstruction, but not when our clan members are dead from war and Kagome and Hazo are stuck in a workshop pumping out seals for Leaf ninja to kill people with.
 
Seriously, we have very low hanging fruit to check here.

We need to ask Naruto to take a look at Jiraiya's books in case he knows how to decode them. If he doesn't then it's a tiny loss of time from a guy who can duplicate himself. If he does, and he's the single most likely person to have this insight, then we can start capitalizing on revenue from what remains of Jiraiya's investments and network.

Edit: Oh also, has anyone done a back of the napkin calculation of ROI from doing missions? (At least while we haven't hit the cap on conditional payments)

I'm starting to wonder if missions are even worth it for the clan.

(I'm trying to figure out how much we can put into investments, civilian adoptees, and other money making sources.)
 
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Have we tried, y'know, campaigning for Asuma? What is his central message? Hyūga has a clear agenda for his followers to support, burn what differentiates Sarutobi aside from "not Hyūga". "Vote for me or the other guy will win" isn't how you win over undecided moderates. Coming up with a campaign strategy likely won't actually win any votes, but it might lower the cost of buying a clan's votes.
No need to speak more and stress everyone, when all the important things would doubtless be sitting there in plain writing.
Well, this dysfunctional foursome is as adorkable as ever.
Slowly, gently, the red haired woman lifted her arms and wrapped them around the blond teenager, pulling him into a hug as he started to sob.
Mari is best replacement redhead-mom.
 
[x] Action Plan: Naruto, did Jiraiya ever give you the talk?
  • Ask Naruto to take a look at Jiraiya's books to see if he might know something that helps us decode them.
  • Get Naruto's opinion on him becoming an administrative assistant to the Hokage.
  • Ask Naruto about the Uzumaki Clan finances, esp. if they have land or property.
Yes, this is meant to be a quick stopgap plan. We've been putting these questions off for a lot of real-world time.

Also, it's meant a poke to those making more full fledged plans to add these to the near term list of things. Hell, we could delegate all of the above to Noburi + Kagome if we need that time to run around politicking.
 
IIRC this was suggested earlier and the general concern was that there would probably be systems put in place to keep from abusing this.

I suggested it earlier :p

Which is valid, but most clans probably have enough members and legitimate missions that there'd be no reason to play this game, and monetary incentives not to. Clanless jonin probably don't have the necessary deposit in the bank in order to fund the missions they'd want to take. It's really only something a clan like us would need to do, and only until we gain enough members to go on regular missions and get our conditional payments that way - once we hit the maximum for conditional payments for the month (R258,322) it's not something we would continue doing.
 
[x] Action Plan: Naruto, did Jiraiya ever give you the talk?
  • Ask Naruto to take a look at Jiraiya's books to see if he might know something that helps us decode them.
  • Get Naruto's opinion on him becoming an administrative assistant to the Hokage.
  • Ask Naruto about the Uzumaki Clan finances, esp. if they have land or property.
Yes, this is meant to be a quick stopgap plan. We've been putting these questions off for a lot of real-world time.

Also, it's meant a poke to those making more full fledged plans to add these to the near term list of things. Hell, we could delegate all of the above to Noburi + Kagome if we need that time to run around politicking.

A plan had already been posted for the next update. But we can try to work that in for the next action plan.
 
Edit: Oh also, has anyone done a back of the napkin calculation of ROI from doing missions? (At least while we haven't hit the cap on conditional payments)

Assuming three ninja go on the mission(s) and have not yet reached their subsistence level from mission pay, if the mission(s) pay(s) more than about R180,000 then we'd max out our conditional payments for the month.

Edit: recalculating, ignore that math for now.
 
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