We do not have an excess of manpower. Deathworld. That's one of the things that clearing land aims to solve. It's definitely something to keep in mind once we start having an excess of manpower, though.

It's relative. Hundreds of civilians displaced by one sealing accident seems like enough manpower to me for starting a modest factory and that's not even counting other civilians who would be interested in stable and safe factory jobs. Doubly so when those jobs can be even safer and stabler than the safest and stablest they've ever been in their history:

Leaf is one of, if not the, most enlightened and highest quality-of-life place in the known world, especially for civilians

I can't stress how much better this offer would seem to people in such a situation. A civilian ninja just told us about how his family was devastated by one sealing accident and his reaction was effectively, "Ah, well, you know... shit happens". If we can offer civilians a life where that never happens while also improving their everyday lives they will worship the ground we walk on. Once we prove that the concept works I'd expect that we will have to turn down droves of applicants unless we rapidly expand production.

We'd be making an impossible dream of every civilian a reality while making ourselves rich. If that's not effective Uplift I don't know what is.
 
The way he got power made him evil (if he wasn't already), and he went on to use it in an evil way. I reject the idea that we as human beings can trust ourselves to be uncorrupted by corrupt acts, or that we can trust ourselves to use enormous power selflessly, wisely, and decently.


Proposed: One of the biggest plot holes in the Narutoverse is that Senju Hashirama was able to do this. People aren't that way. Real history is full of idealist utopians that built hellscapes.

Counterexample: Cincinnatus. Absolute dictator of Rome in a crisis, promptly resigned his post afterward. People can be that way if they choose to be.
 
It's relative. Hundreds of civilians displaced by one sealing accident seems like enough manpower to me for starting a modest factory and that's not even counting other civilians who would be interested in stable and safe factory jobs. Doubly so when those jobs can be even safer and stabler than the safest and stablest they've ever been in their history:

Why the heck are you talking about factory jobs when we haven't done anything for agriculture? You know, most of the people living in Konoha are still farmers.
 
You know, if these Ino/Chouza meetings each take up 1/3 of our day and we don't even know what to do with them, perhaps we should cancel them and do something actually useful with our time? Like turning the civilians we saved into a weapon against the Merchant Council, clearing land and trying to turn another clan with it, ruining the Hyuuga's day, figuring out whether Mari is running rogue and/or apologizing to her, talking to Tsunade to ensure she wasn't turned, investigating the underworld, recruiting more operatives, figuring out whom to adopt...

Just a thought.
 
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You know, if these Ino/Chouza meetings each take up 1/3 of our day and we don't even know what to do with them, perhaps we should cancel them and do something actually useful with our time? Like turning the civilians we saved into a weapon against the Merchant Council, clearing land and trying to turn another clan with it, ruining the Hyuuga's day, figuring out whether Mari is running rogue and/or apologizing to her, talking to Tsunade to ensure she wasn't turned, investigating the underworld, recruiting more operatives, figuring out whom to adopt...

Just a thought.

The problem is that not visiting them, especially after their recent personal losses, severely risks sending a "we don't care" message.
 
I did some brainstorming on discord about the things of or directly related to economics that I could think of and that we don't know. Here's what I got:
  • Typical sealmaster tendencies before skywalkers became a thing and how that changed with skywalkers (relevant for, at least, talk about how many skywalkers we can sell to the tower before they run out of money for it)
They won't run out of money as long as the Kage wants more Skywalkers (see my earlier post), since there isn't a Kage right now, it depends on a number of political factors. In-character, it makes sense for the govt to be stockpiling Skywalkers, so they could have up to R250 million extra to spend on the matter, on top of a projected monthly budget of R29.9 million. You could easily defend any number of % distributions of that 29.9 million budget, I don't think 50% for Skywalkers would be out of line if they are actively trying to stockpile them.

  • The number of sealmasters at each rank (generalities are fine, but at this level of granularity we probably care about the specifics too)

Calcs are based on 3 Jounin, 10 Chunin, 17 Genin Sealmasters within Leaf.

  • Mission pay.
  • Our salt production rates, sale price, and other major factors in the enterprise.
  • Ditto with ice.
  • And Kenta's carpentry business, particularly including the investment we're planning to expand it and, unless I'm mistaken, the talk about branching out into construction.
I do have a rough model for mission pay, but it's in the Econ PMs and haven't heard anything back on it. However, realistically speaing all four of these are basically a rounding error compared to selling seals and clearing land. If we are talking about an actual simulated market, it would be strange if all viable ideas contributed equal (or even the same order of magnitude) profits to the clan. It's much more likely that the top 1-2 ventures generate 80-99%+ of the profit, just as if you were to sample the stock market, a single large cap can dwarf dozens of small-caps.

Salt and ice are valuable commodities in modest quantities but scaling them to the point where they'd compete with arms manufacturing would drive the local price so low that your margins would evaporate. Even if you could get a distribution network in place to spread out the impact, transportation and administration costs would eat further into your profits. It would be difficult to generate more than R1-2 million in profits a month with such efforts.

In comparison, land is the most direct form of capital wealth available in this society and seals, the most directly effective military armament. Land is one of the only viable investments, seals are a (semi) direct conversion of wealth into killing power, they are the economic beneficiaries of a literal arms race between military states. Their demand curves are a lot more attractive for your purposes.

Missions would be viable, though still far less profitable than sealing, if you had a larger number of high-level ninja in the clan.

In the long-term, using your political influence to have the Kage give you kickbacks by [printing money / issuing bonds / using government surplus] to issue lucrative make-work contracts to the Goketsu would be the only thing more potentially profitable than arms dealing or generating arable land.
 
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You know, if these Ino/Chouza meetings each take up 1/3 of our day and we don't even know what to do with them, perhaps we should cancel them and do something actually useful with our time? Like turning the civilians we saved into a weapon against the Merchant Council, clearing land and trying to turn another clan with it, ruining the Hyuuga's day, figuring out whether Mari is running rogue and/or apologizing to her, talking to Tsunade to ensure she wasn't turned, investigating the underworld, recruiting more operatives, figuring out whom to adopt...

Just a thought.
Ehhh...at this point, I don't think the optics on cancelling our appointments the day of would make it worth it. Especially since we really do need to offer our condolences for their losses, and get an idea of what their plans are.

It's too bad we don't have anything lined up for Shikamaru at the same time, otherwise I'd have suggested having a group lunch thing with ISC together and discussed some of the above schemes I'd pointed out earlier.
 
They're just as busy as we are. If the main purpose of these meetings is expensive signalling about how we care, they'll just be annoyed, not appreciative.
There is definitely reasons to talk to Asuma about what we want for getting him the hat. However people don't seem to want to deal with it
 
You know, if these Ino/Chouza meetings each take up 1/3 of our day and we don't even know what to do with them, perhaps we should cancel them and do something actually useful with our time? Like turning the civilians we saved into a weapon against the Merchant Council, clearing land and trying to turn another clan with it, ruining the Hyuuga's day, figuring out whether Mari is running rogue and/or apologizing to her, talking to Tsunade to ensure she wasn't turned, investigating the underworld, recruiting more operatives, figuring out whom to adopt...

Just a thought.
@Velorien is traveling over the next few days, so my current understanding is that @OliWhail is writing an Interlude for Thursday. @OliWhail, @Velorien, please confirm?

If that's the case, and I am therefore writing the next plot update, I would have no objection to saying that the meetings happen but are offscreened because they are simply social affairs, and you can vote in a more active plan.

That's ONLY if the next update is an Interlude. Also, voting for the plan would close...let's tentatively say Wednesday afternoon sometime, since I am also traveling and will need multiple days in order to produce a Sunday update that isn't something fluffy and short. Even then, I might end up doing an Interlude instead.
 
[X] Action Plan: Meeting of the Minds
More my fault. I am reluctant to say anything about our business ideas. I should be more bold.
Personally, I'd say you should be more detailed. Instead of just saying "Who they are voting for and what they are up to."separate that and go into detail. Like...

For all:
  • Politics:
    • Confirm that they are, in fact, going to vote for Asuma and/or are ready to become Hokage.
    • Discuss the political actions we've been taking regarding getting clans to vote for Asuma.
      • Indicate that we've gotten the Hagoromo's support, and that we're working on the Uchiha's.
      • Ask them about the Motoyoshi-Kurusu-Kyosho bloc and the Aburame/Inuzuka, and sound out ideas for how to get them to work. Is there anything they'd want that we can offer?
Or something like that.

On a related note, maybe "Apologize to Mari for being rude yesterday." isn't the best way to do things. I've noticed that I don't think a straight-up apology would look good based on what Jiraiya's internal thoughts were, and even though I do think Hazou wouldn't care much about decorum there is the power dynamic in play. Perhaps it could be something like "Tell Mari that Hazou's personal experiences made the idea of giving up his children viscerally repulsive; but even so he should not have responded by laying down ultimatums to the hard work she's done.", or something like that?
 
I would like to pitch our land clearing scheme to Asuma. Bring him on as a partner. Could help to:
  • Demonstrate his personal power
  • Demonstrate his (and our) value to the village
  • Give him extra funds, which could be very useful to a Hokage candidate
  • Bonding time. Aren't we such great supporters Mr. Hokage? You don't mind bending that one silly rule for us, your great supporters, right?
 
One question that might still need answered is whether we can actually own the land we clear, and who we would sell/mortgage it to.

Edit:
"Every volume since its foundation?" Keiko echoed distantly. "Then since you have unrestricted access, would it be possible—"

"It wouldn't," Nara said sharply. "I don't exactly know you that well yet, and besides, given who you are, my father could never allow it. To be frank, from your position you'd have to marry into the clan to be allowed into our library."

Keiko gave him a contemplative look.

"No. No no no. Don't even think about it. There is nothing in this world more troublesome than women."
Just randomly found this. Poor Shikamaru. :p
 
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Let's give this a try...

[x] Action Plan: Aren't we such great supporters, Mr. Hokage?
Wordcount: 184

Main goal: Touch base with Asuma & his supporters

Meet with Ino, then Chōza
Exchange condolences and commiseration. Try to exchange intel about the hat vote and strategies to win. Share the existence of Hagoromo & Uchiha deals (minimal details) if conversation is private.

Meet with Asuma
More niceties. Make sure it's under privacy seals (can this be done politely? Mari/sane people please help). Confirm our support, and strategize over Hokageship. Fully disclose the deals if he presses.

Describe the land-clearing scheme (Wakahisa + implosion seals + force blades + Monkeys) and propose it as a big splashy deed to improve standing (can this be done politely?). Express our willingness to do this with other clans too, if that could help his candidacy (telekinetic Motoyoshi? far-sighted Hyūga? monster hunting Inuzuka?)

If possible:
  • Get more information on land ownership & market before Asuma meeting. Be prepared!
  • Make sure the civilians are okay (or delegate)
  • Apologize to Mari for getting worked up over the Uchiha deal and expressing myself poorly.
  • Pump out Skywalkers like a madman
 
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On a related note, maybe "Apologize to Mari for being rude yesterday." isn't the best way to do things. I've noticed that I don't think a straight-up apology would look good based on what Jiraiya's internal thoughts were, and even though I do think Hazou wouldn't care much about decorum there is the power dynamic in play. Perhaps it could be something like "Tell Mari that Hazou's personal experiences made the idea of giving up his children viscerally repulsive; but even so he should not have responded by laying down ultimatums to the hard work she's done.", or something like that?
I think you're wrong to trust him on that tbh.
 
I can probably resolve most outstanding economic questions with the model, but I need to know what they are.

Other questions: (A few of us were having a back-and-forth over on the discord, as Vulpix mentioned earlier)

  • Who owns our home loan?
  • How much does the Tower have for seals/month?
  • When does the monthly seal budget refresh? (To have someone camping out.)
  • Who owns the land around Leaf/how much/how far out?
  • Who owns the random land farther from the major villages?
  • What is the price of said land? (Both closer to Leaf and farther)
More questions from @Esryok:
  • What sort of migration patterns do civilians have?
  • How often are settlements created/destroyed?
  • What has historically motivated civilians to resettle?
  • Has the encircled territory of Leaf ever expanded/contracted?
  • How are craftsmen/merchant civilians taxed? (e.g. that luxury clothes shop owner. Still subsistence?)
  • How are civilian clan members taxed?
  • Is land ownership transferred around much?
  • Between which parties, in what volume, at what frequency? (trying to determine how much new supply the market can bear)
  • How many taverns can Leaf support?
  • Tower classifications for Air Domes, Usumatsu's, explosive seals
  • Open market value for explosive seals
  • How do loans and defaults work in Leaf?
 
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I think you're wrong to trust him on that tbh.
His...internal thoughts? I mean...just because he wasn't born from a clan doesn't mean he doesn't know things about clan power dynamics. One would imagine that he'd picked up something from his decades spent with the Sandaime, not to mention his interactions with Jashin knows how many other clan ninja.
 
[X] Action Plan: Meeting of the Minds

Apologize to Mari for Hazo's rude and inconsiderate approach instead of his normal planning strategy. Hazo felt a bit rushed.

Follow Mari's advice and suggestions on meetings. If there's time, also accept feedback from the rest of the clan. Don't blurt out OPSEC sensitive info like Goketsu's maneuvers for the hat(Unless approved).

For all:
  • Exchange condolences and commiseration. Ask who they are voting for(Hopefully Asuma). Possibly share that Goketsu secured deals for the hat, but no specifics.
  • The rest is a social call unless there's something specific.
Asuma:
  • Inquire Asuma's plan for the future. Hazo is worried about a world war breaking out. Do Asuma have a game plan for continuing the peace?
  • Suggest Naruto as personal assistant. Naruto's training for kageship or jonin commander should continue.
  • Suggest focus on economic development instead of warfare such as till'n'fill. Ninja magic augmenting the lowly farmers mean more food, then more people, and ultimately more ninja.
  • Suggest focus on educational reform. Kagome and Honoka's experience with the education system suggested that it is not the best it could be.

A competing plan compelled me to do better!
 
His...internal thoughts? I mean...just because he wasn't born from a clan doesn't mean he doesn't know things about clan power dynamics. One would imagine that he'd picked up something from his decades spent with the Sandaime, not to mention his interactions with Jashin knows how many other clan ninja.
Power dynamics is one thing. Admitting you did wrong is another.
 
@Esryok things I would like to add to Asuma conversations. If team has to go in the field we'd like to stay together. We'd like the dog scroll.
 
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