How is stealing the scroll easier than convincing the villagers to give it to us?

During the meeting villagers talked about maybe letting our descendants to approach the scroll under heavy supervision.

You seem to be baselessly optimistic in your expectations about access to the scroll.


Also, engaging a team of diplomancers with home field advantage in diplomatic battle, while allowing them to split our party as they see fit is absolutely retarded.

We should attack where we are strong and enemy is weak. So far hivemind doggedly insisted on doing the opposite. I think it's a good time to accept that we are never going to win diplomatic battle and change the battlefield.
 
During the meeting villagers talked about maybe letting our descendants to approach the scroll under heavy supervision.

You seem to be baselessly optimistic in your expectations about access to the scroll.


Also, engaging a team of diplomancers with home field advantage in diplomatic battle, while allowing them to split our party as they see fit is absolutely retarded.

We should attack where we are strong and enemy is weak. So far hivemind doggedly insisted on doing the opposite. I think it's a good time to accept that we are never going to win diplomatic battle and change the battlefield.
There is no guarantee that Takahashi intends to go through politically... tasteful channels in getting Keiko access. Or, he might be willing to use a technicality of accepting her as an apprentice (does this have a meaning in the context of being a part of his family, or something?) to get her access.
 
During the meeting villagers talked about maybe letting our descendants to approach the scroll under heavy supervision.

You seem to be baselessly optimistic in your expectations about access to the scroll.

It's not baseless: when we had first contact they straight up tried to murder us. Now they want to assimilate us and have our grandkids guard the scroll. From now on, if we play our cards right, we can improve our position even further.

Also, engaging a team of diplomancers with home field advantage in diplomatic battle, while allowing them to split our party as they see fit is absolutely retarded.

I agree that simply allowing the villagers to do as they see fit is ill-advised. I don't see how the home field advantage is relevant though; could you elaborate on that?

We should attack where we are strong and enemy is weak. So far hivemind doggedly insisted on doing the opposite. I think it's a good time to accept that we are never going to win diplomatic battle and change the battlefield.

Mari, when she has the proper instructions, is a competent diplomancer. With the updated combat rules, I sincerely doubt that we would have the upper hand in an all out confrontation. If we spend more time here it means that we have more time to research new seals and then make them. We have already won twice against two different village elders: Mari stopped Yoshida's efforts to monopolize us and the Gasai are about to be voted off of the elder council. All we have to do to indebt the Aida to us is to heal Aida Rin; if Noburi can't heal her we have an excuse to leave the village to improve his medical skills.

Since @Velorien put in a WoG that Keiko was (mostly) being her usually moody self, we are now the safest we have ever been in the village. We still have to deal with Takahashi and Kannagi, but it is doable. In the mean time, Kagome can make even more implosion seals in case we need to defend ourselves. Also, we can take the time to think of a better escape plan than "run away as fast as we can." I'm thinking we should make a tunnel or a series of well placed rocks (yet still natural looking) for substituting away from the village.
 
There is no guarantee that Takahashi intends to go through politically... tasteful channels in getting Keiko access. Or, he might be willing to use a technicality of accepting her as an apprentice (does this have a meaning in the context of being a part of his family, or something?) to get her access.
I personally don't believe in Takahashi's training at all. I see no reason to. I am surprised and bewildered that other players believe that the elder who is not himself a summoner will teach an outsider instead of, say, his own daughter to be a summoner.

I think Takahashi aims to buy time for other elders to prepare to kill us (cook some poison) or subdue us (Yuno is too convenient to be true).

I think Minori must be made an orphan.

I insist.
 
During the meeting villagers talked about maybe letting our descendants to approach the scroll under heavy supervision.
I'm going to have to call not paranoid enough here. You're assuming that Takahashi is lying to us and telling the truth to the rest of the village. My view of him is that he's lying to everybody. I'm just waiting to see whether there's going to be an opportunity for us to take advantage of whatever the truth turns out to be. In terms of timeline, Keiko has been his apprentice for about a month and thinks she's about half way through, so we have about a month to go before something about the story we're being told has to change.

Feels a lot like stalling for time while le we longer in indecision.
I, at least, have two possible facts that I expect to learn this update if they're true, and that would cause me to vote to leave:
  1. If Takahashi has been weakening Keiko's connection to the team.
  2. If Keiko's mental health is deteriorating back towards how she was before Mari helped her.
I had, though, forgotten one more thing I want to learn. @Jello_Raptor, I'd be interested in a line in Poor Communication Kills about Mari asking Keiko if she's been using her bloodline during the training and, if she has, ask her to spend some time with Mari going through whatever exercises her clan has to check that they are not overusing it.

I'd like to have some sort of a line in the sand where if Takahashi has been pressuring her to use her bloodline, then I'd vote either to leave or to take a break on the apprenticeship for a while, but honestly he's good enough at what he does that he wouldn't do anything oppressive like that. He'd lead her into wanting to use her bloodline instead. But at the least it would inform the next vote.
 
Mari, when she has the proper instructions, is a competent diplomancer.
She is not. She let Keiko go alone to talk to Takahashi. She disclosed her training to Takahashi. She is not exactly bad at diplomacy, but she isn't even close to village elders, unfortunately.
With the updated combat rules, I sincerely doubt that we would have the upper hand in an all out confrontation.
I disagree. Explosions and MEW are our friends. Once we get more Sealing research, we would be able to basically carpet-bomb the village. We probably should.
If we spend more time here it means that we have more time to research new seals and then make them.
Last time I checked we didn't have sealing lab in the village. Also, I am strongly against doing anything sealing-related where Yoshida may see it.

I don't see how the home field advantage is relevant though; could you elaborate on that?

Simple. Village elders know each other and other villagers from birth. We will never be able to outplay them in village politics. Even playing opposing elders against each other may be beyond us.

On the other hand, Takahashi succeeded in getting an enormous amount of knowledge from Keiko. More than that, hivemind was so enthralled by empty promise of summoning training that Keiko was immediately sent to Takahashi with instructions to obey him unquestioningly. So, he is better diplomancer and knows more. We should not take such high risk for such vacuous reward.

My view of him is that he's lying to everybody. I'm just waiting to see whether there's going to be an opportunity for us to take advantage of whatever the truth turns out to be.
Whatever Takahashi's true plan is, it is almost certainly not to our advantage. Letting it come to fruition is a bad idea.
In terms of timeline, Keiko has been his apprentice for about a month and thinks she's about half way through, so we have about a month to go before something about the story we're being told has to change.
I don't want Keiko to finish her training. I don't want her to have started her training, even. Her training is almost certainly a scam. We have no reason to believe Takahashi even can teach her anything worthwhile. I want Takahashi to die month ago.
 
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I will be eternally amused if the only thing one needs for summoning is a signed contract and sufficient amount of chakra.

However, I'm prepared to believe that there is special training involved, and Takahashi has it, and is doing his best to teach Keiko. It's just that even with all these assumptions stacked one onto another I can't believe that the end result will be to Keiko's benefit as we see it. SoD broken.

Halfway through training she feels bad about leaving the village. Once Takahashi is done she may well choose to stay. That would be a disaster whether she's a summoner by then or not.
 
I haven't been active in this quest much, but I've been reading everything. This is the first time that I've felt strongly enough about the quest to actually vote since we got out of the Swamp of Death. I am completely fed up with this arc and I think that this has the best chance at getting us out safely quickly; communication kills seems like we'll still wind up being here in five updates.

[X] Action Plan: Assimilation my a-

EDIT: Also, Jiraiya directed us to this summoning contract. He had no way of knowing that Takahisa would give us training, so either he has a plan to give us training or summoning contracts don't need training to use. WE DON'T NEED TAKAHISA'S TRAINING FOR KEIKO. I suggest adding pointing this out to any action plans.
 
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About Mari: she's better at talking than any of us, but Diplomacy is not her forte. She's not a diplomat, she's an infiltrator. Political scene is not her natural habitat and over relying on her will bring us [more] trouble.
 
My interpretation of The Elders' Master Plan:

The elders want to keep us here and make us assimilate and stay firmly under their control. That much is obvious.

What is also increasingly obvious is that our "allies" have been cooperating to trick us.

Takahashi's "offer" (which may or may not be genuine, but I doubt it because this village doesn't actually have any summoners so how the hell would such training even work since he clearly doesn't know how to do it, or he would be a summoner himself) has three purposes:
To prevent us from pursuing the contract through other means (ie. theft).
To (PLATONICALLY!) seduce Kei, notably by validating and enabling her dangerous pathological cynicism.
And finally, to stall us while Kei trains, keeping us in the village for long enough that we can be bound to it more strongly with other ties.

Speaking of which, here the wedding plot is introduced, and they even set things up so that Kannagi gets to gloat to Mari's face in a way that she can't immediately retaliate and has to just sit there and take it.

Hazou will be next.

Let's... not stick around to find out what they have planned to tie him here.
 
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@gbear605, exactly.

This is why I am so insistent on changing the type of game we play. This whole "let's try our diplomacy against village elders" plan is so crazy I still can't believe so many people decided it's a good idea.

@MadScientist, I agree with your analysis of Takahashi's plan.
I wholeheartedly support the idea of getting the hell out of the village before it's too late.
Actually, I suspect (say, I put 40% probability in it) that it is already too late and we will lose Keiko no matter what we do now.
 
I do see Takahashi working at cross-purposes with the other elders. That he let Inoue in on the meeting where Kannagi blabbed about his true intentions is suggestive. Also, if Inoue's spying is discovered, he is just as on the hook as she is. Of course, he might have planned it ahead of time with all the other elders, and we are seeing a scripted play unfolding, only slightly disrupted by one of the actors being wounded and replaced by an understudy.

That said, I do want to brainstorm some proactive plans that have us actually using the group's ninja skills: @HyperCatnip has a point, in that we should attack where we are strong and they are weak.

For example, the plan to have Yuno murder someone or be murdered might actually be viable: distrust and discord inside the village will generally benefit us, since elders would have more trouble coordinating --- or at least would have to spend more effort wrangling their minions. Can we convince Yuno that Minori is after Noburi and needs to be dealt with right now? Or, a fellow Kannagi going after Yuno, paying Kannagi back threefold for manipulating us? Or, a resentful Gasai killing Yuno over the loss of their council seat, while it would probably end even worse for Gasai, could cause some fighting in the streets that would distract the elders from their grand plans. My sense is that Inoue would thrive in the chaos of her own creation.

Another option is to do something to cause another all-hands elders meeting and then seal-bomb the venue for a decapitation strike. (In particular, if that injured elder dies, they're going to have to meet to elect a new one.) Bonus if we can frame a disgruntled member of the sealmasters for it.
 
Kei gave the woman a tapir-caught-in-the-anaconda stare. "Y-You don't…"

After a few seconds, Mari-sensei put a hand on her shoulder. "Go ahead. I trust you."
She is not. She let Keiko go alone to talk to Takahashi. She disclosed her training to Takahashi. She is not exactly bad at diplomacy, but she isn't even close to village elders, unfortunately.

I agree that Mari made a bad judgment call there; as rude as it would have been, they should have refused the misleading invitation. However, when we gave her a plan to follow, she performed satisfactorily:
"You have knowledge we lack," Yoshida said. "Knowledge I think will outweigh the harm you do merely by being here. If you keep your screw-ups to a minimum, we might be able to come out of this with both sides enriched, and nobody being blown up or trampled to death. That is, of course, provided you agree to my conditions.

"Let Kouta go free.

"Stay away from the other elders.

"Let me do the negotiating on your behalf.

"Don't do anything stupid."

She locked gazes with Inoue-sensei.

"Well?"

Inoue studied the older woman thoughtfully for several seconds. "You keep talking about my team's screwups," she said calmly. "I think perhaps there is some confusion here. From where I sit, my team has been nothing but polite and generous, and has been very poorly treated in return.

"Your tapirs attacked us on sight," she said with a shrug. "Fair enough, they're animals. It would have been easy for us to kill every one of them, but I instructed my team not to hurt the tapirs while we waited for you to show up. When your team showed up I tried to parley. They ignored me and attacked immediately. I demonstrated that we had complete martial superiority, but deliberately chose not to kill anyone and I kept the breakage to a minimum. We came here voluntarily to treat your wounded, despite having no obligation to do so. We've done that for days now, making no demands on you. We made a friendly offer to train with anyone who wanted to. Your thug was offensive to my team, but they remained polite and professional. Kimiko sparred with him; when he discovered that he wasn't good enough to beat her he turned it into a lethal fight. He would have killed her if I hadn't intervened."

Inoue's face got hard. "We've been extremely tolerant, but no one hurts my students and walks away. You're very lucky that all I did was cripple your brat. Where we're from it wouldn't have been nearly so gentle; if a Mist ninja had attacked a representative of a friendly foreign power, that Mist ninja would have been executed and reparations made to the foreign nin in order to prevent a war."

Yoshida opened her mouth to say something but Inoue raised a finger warningly. "Don't," she said. "Just don't."

She paused, studying the older woman again. "History and geography lesson," Inoue said. "Your village is in the Land of Tea, which is a second tier country in the Elemental Nations. West of Tea is the ocean, this section of which is known as the Hanguri Gulf. On the other side of the Gulf is the Land of Fire, the most powerful country in the Elemental Nations by a good margin. Five or six of the most powerful shinobi in the world live there. One of them, possibly the second most powerful, is a man named Jiraiya. He's known as the Toad Sage, and he's the spymaster for Fire."

Yoshida shifted slightly, frowning in confusion at the seeming non sequitur, but she didn't interrupt.

"We met Jiraiya a little while ago," Inoue said. "It was an interesting meeting. The first thing he did was kick all of our asses at once, just to prove that he could. He made the point that once the question of power levels was settled we could get on with reasonable discussion. We knew we couldn't kill him, we knew he didn't want to kill us, so there was no reason for tension.

"I think I'm going to take a page from the most powerful non-Kage ninja I've ever met," she said. "Time for you to face facts: my team and I represent a level of military force that your village cannot cope with. It's possible that you could bring us down, but the damage you would suffer would be catastrophic. There might be a few of you left afterwards, but you would cease to exist as a village. More likely what would happen is that we'd kill a whole bunch of you, then escape. If we escaped without injury—which is what I would expect—then we would just leave you to bury your dead. In the unlikely event that you managed to hurt or kill any of us we'd hang around and slaughter your patrols until your military was eliminated. Then we'd come in and erase every trace of the Village Hidden in the Mountain from the face of the earth. Every person: dead. Every building: destroyed. Every tapir: rotting in the sun. We would make it like your village had never happened. Do you have the slightest doubt that we could do this?"

Yoshida's face was growing steadily redder with fury. "Don't you threaten me, you little—"

"Shut. Up," Inoue said. "Answer the question. Look at the number of seals surrounding you and recognize that we have at least one sealmaster in the party. Think about the way I demolished your patrol and took out Kouta before you could blink. Think of how one of my genin batted him around before he decided to escalate. Do you have any doubt that we could flatten your village if we really wanted to?"

Yoshida looked as though she'd swallowed a lemon with bugs in it. "No," she ground out.

"Good," Inoue said. Her tone got friendly again and she smiled. "Then let's put this on a better footing. We don't want to hurt you, or upset your village. Honestly, we think you guys are amazing to have built what you've built while staying completely off the map for so long. I think we could really help each other a lot, and I would like to. We'll leave if you want us to, but it would be a missed opportunity for both sides. Do you want us to go?"

Yoshida chewed on the lemon a little longer. "No," she finally said. "As much as you're going to flip everything upside down, we need to establish contact with the outside world in a controlled way, and you're our best chance to do that."

"Good," Inoue said. "Now, you're right that we don't know your culture. We could easily misstep without a guide, and you would be the best guide we could ask for. We aren't willing to be your puppets, but we are more than willing to be your partners. Let's talk about the best way to make that happen, okay?"

The lemon got a little smaller and Yoshida nodded. "Right," she said.

I disagree. Explosions and MEW are our friends. Once we get more Sealing research, we would be able to basically carpet-bomb the village. We probably should.

People are watching us constantly. We stick out like a sore thumb transplant. The village has an unknown amount of ninjutsu that we did not see the first time we fought them and they have the home field advantage. Even if we carpet bomb everyone in the village simultaneously, what about the ninjas who go with the lumberjacks or any others who might be out of the village but will hear the explosions and then come running? How are we going to target and detonate so many seals? We have never even experimented with using MEW along with seals in any way; why don't we take the time to practice inside of our base? I consider carpet bombing a decent fall back option, but we need specifics to pull it off.

Last time I checked we didn't have sealing lab in the village. Also, I am strongly against doing anything sealing-related where Yoshida may see it.

So we build one here or at our primary fort. They know we have an interest in sealing already; they don't know how capable Kagome is with it. I am willing to lose some political capital to make expanding our base happen.

Simple. Village elders know each other and other villagers from birth. We will never be able to outplay them in village politics. Even playing opposing elders against each other may be beyond us.

If there was absolute solidarity among the elders I would agree. However, we have had evidence that the village elders disagree about what to do with us; in fact, they have already changed their minds from "kill on sight" to "begrudging assimilation."

On the other hand, Takahashi succeeded in getting an enormous amount of knowledge from Keiko. More than that, hivemind was so enthralled by empty promise of summoning training that Keiko was immediately sent to Takahashi with instructions to obey him unquestioningly. So, he is better diplomancer and knows more. We should not take such high risk for such vacuous reward.

He made a better play by targeting Keiko; he himself noted that he would be hard pressed to match wits against Mari. We need to think of some way to take care of him sooner rather than later. For now, I think it is best to end Keiko's apprenticeship with him and petition the council for a better deal. We could state before the council what Takahashi's plan was involving Keiko and the scroll and offer Keiko's knowledge as proof. We have options.
 
I don't think people are fully realizing how significant it is that Takahashi infiltrated Inoue into that Elder Meeting. If we assume that he actually is a secret village traditionalist and only wants to screw us over, this action would be nothing short of a complete betrayal of all of his convictions. He really did not have to take that risk, which wouldve brought hellfire down on him if the charade was discovered. I think P( Takahashi wants the scroll gone with a new summoner ) >= .5

I still dislike the nihilism that Keiko is accumulating, and we should maybe tell her that the "naive and stupid" Akane didn't have any problems accepting that Inoue killed Leaf nin on our way here, and thought Hazou was silly for worrying about telling her. She's not actually ignorant about the cruelty of the world, she just chooses to continue to act with spirit and enthusiasm in spite of it.
 
Speaking of which, here the wedding plot is introduced, and they even set things up so that Kannagi gets to gloat to Mari's face in a way that she can't immediately retaliate and has to just sit there and take it.
This part doesn't make sense: for expert diplomancers in a rational!universe, revealing their plans to their mark midway through is a Grade A Cartoon Villain idiocy. So, either Takahashi is genuine, or they are playing one level deeper, trying to convince Inoue that he is.
 
Well the rest of the elders needed convincing, and Mari had to be convinced Kannagi didn't know she was present (even if she got a feeling it was otherwise).
One level deeper sounds about right.
 
This part doesn't make sense: for expert diplomancers in a rational!universe, revealing their plans to their mark midway through is a Grade A Cartoon Villain idiocy. So, either Takahashi is genuine, or they are playing one level deeper, trying to convince Inoue that he is.

Inside, Mari burned. Kannagi was going to have his cake and eat it – let Noburi dig himself deeper and deeper, then make the call about whether to allow the wedding to proceed whenever it was most politically expedient. And his words had just backed them into a corner when it came to ending the betrothal themselves.

It was almost as if Kannagi knew she was listening. That was impossible, though. A taijutsu expert was not going to see through one of her disguises.

Sounds to me like Kannagi was gloating because he knew Mari was listening and was certain he'd trapped her so thoroughly that she wouldn't be able to escape the plot despite knowing all about it.

That or what @Muer'ci said.
 
If we wanted to discredit the Kannagi, we could try convincing Yuno that going to get the scroll is a really good idea that she had for herself all on her own without any hinting from us. :whistle:
 
I do see Takahashi working at cross-purposes with the other elders. That he let Inoue in on the meeting where Kannagi blabbed about his true intentions is suggestive. Also, if Inoue's spying is discovered, he is just as on the hook as she is. Of course, he might have planned it ahead of time with all the other elders, and we are seeing a scripted play unfolding, only slightly disrupted by one of the actors being wounded and replaced by an understudy.

I don't think people are fully realizing how significant it is that Takahashi infiltrated Inoue into that Elder Meeting. If we assume that he actually is a secret village traditionalist and only wants to screw us over, this action would be nothing short of a complete betrayal of all of his convictions. He really did not have to take that risk, which wouldve brought hellfire down on him if the charade was discovered. I think P( Takahashi wants the scroll gone with a new summoner ) >= .5

I still dislike the nihilism that Keiko is accumulating, and we should maybe tell her that the "naive and stupid" Akane didn't have any problems accepting that Inoue killed Leaf nin on our way here, and thought Hazou was silly for worrying about telling her. She's not actually ignorant about the cruelty of the world, she just chooses to continue to act with spirit and enthusiasm in spite of it.

This part doesn't make sense: for expert diplomancers in a rational!universe, revealing their plans to their mark midway through is a Grade A Cartoon Villain idiocy. So, either Takahashi is genuine, or they are playing one level deeper, trying to convince Inoue that he is.

Another point in favor of the elders actually scheming against each other is that both Takahashi and Yoshida tried to maneuver themselves to be our sole conduit to village politics. Kannagi was content with simply being coronated as our primary handler. If all of the elders are secretly working together behind the scenes, why hasn't there been a more unified approach against us? If it is a very convoluted plot, how does the council have this much experience with dealing with foreigners?

Man there is so much shit to sort through. Why are people so against taking a relatively free action update again?
 
If all of the elders are secretly working together behind the scenes, why hasn't there been a more unified approach against us?

What we are seeing isn't actually inconsistent with a unified aproach.

If they are unified against us, then they would want to present a facade of scheming against each other to make us waste time trying to exploit a non-existent division between them.

Yoshida could have told Takahashi to compete for the position of our handlers to add credibility to the illusion of dissention in their ranks.
 
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