Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

HyperCatnip · May 27, 2016

Twofold said:
Stop being such a drama queen.

I would really appreciate it if you addressed the substance of my posts instead of resorting to ad hominem jabs. Thanks.

Twofold said:
How is it any more difficult to escape from the village now than it was in the last three votes?

Well, first of all, Keiko might not want to escape the village. We also have Noburi much more involved with village, because of Yuno. He is, at least marginally, under more observation now. Enough additional difficulties for you, I hope?

Twofold said:
Also, Assimilation my a- plan doesn't involve killing Takahashi, in case you want to vote like you preach.

You are, of course, correct here. But I feel that we get the best chances of survival if we flee the village first, kill everyone later. Takahashi is no longer a priority target. Thanks to the way votes went two times before, he had all the time in the world to share his insights into Keiko's psyche with everyone in the village and their tapirs, as well as writing it down for posterity.

Also, I want to say two things to my fellow voters.

First. I think that voting for the most convoluted, circuitous course of action, so that our team got into every possible trap, suffered from every possible drama and took every possible risk in hopes of getting more XP is reckless and stupid. This approach will earn us a TPK. I personally suspect that this approach already earned us a TPK 2 votes ago.

Second, I think that our votes should be aimed at ensuring survival and happiness of our avatar, not the most amusing gruesome death we can make him suffer. I really dislike this voting attitude. Please don't do that, you spoil the quest for me and others.

I also dislike that Action Plan: Poor Communication Kills has so much emphasis on staying. I do not want staying. I do not want to discuss staying. I want us to leave. I want us to kill Takahashi.

Also, I am unsure if Keiko is even salvageable at the moment.

Twofold · May 27, 2016

HyperCatnip said:
I would really appreciate it if you addressed the substance of my posts instead of resorting to ad hominem jabs. Thanks.

Let me underline some parts from your post that raised my hackles because they were directed at people doing the voting instead of plans or ideas in general. If you start throwing stones at a crowd don't be surprised if someone throws them back at you.

HyperCatnip said:
I absolutely hated the way last two votes went.

I expect the price of naivete of voters to be:

Keiko's death or desertion - 70%.

Noburi's death - 60%.

Congratulations, fellow players, instead of getting marginally stronger, our party just got two times weaker. I hope you are happy.

That said, I still insist on killing Takahashi. I will not support any plans where he is left alive for more than a day.

If you want to get something useful out of the "drama queen" part, read it as: "You are being overly dramatic".

HyperCatnip said:
Second, I think that our votes should be aimed at ensuring survival and happiness of our avatar, not the most amusing gruesome death we can make him suffer. I really dislike this voting attitude. Please don't do that, you spoil the quest for me and others.

I'm happy that you have identified all the reasons why I have voted as I have voted in this quest so far. Thank you for putting that out for everyone in a succinct manner.

I don't think I want to continue this discussion with you anymore, it's neither productive nor fun.

Traiden · May 27, 2016

We are all on the same boat people, just ride the wave.

Muer'ci · May 27, 2016

Muer'ci said:
[X] Action Plan: Assimilation my a-

Playing politics was fun for a while, but it's time to change the game before we lose.

We won't be subverting ninjaville any time soon, and killing everyone will make Akane sad (probably Jiraiya too, if/when he finds out) so I suggest we remember what we really came here for - the Summoning Scroll. With that said...

Goals:

Survive.

Get out and away from here, and return to our Fort.

Try to do it without killing random people in the village, though anyone who follows us beyond it is fair game.

Come back once we're stronger and the hustle dies down a bit, probably in a couple of months or so, we'll see how it goes.

Methods:

Wait patiently for the meeting to conclude. Don't rock the boat. Once it's over, all of us return to our camp.

Once back at the camp, Mari shares what she learned earlier with us.

Convince the group that it's time to leave:

In private, tell Mari about our conversation with Keiko, voice concern over Keiko's attitude to both the team and life and Takahashi's influence on her.

Point out to Noburi that Kannagi lied about canceling the betrothal, that 13 is too young to choose a partner for life and that there are plenty of pretty girls out there who don't act like they might murder people for disagreeing with them.

Remind everyone of the times we were attacked, of people spreading vile rumours about us, that our so-called allies make us sit on seals, lie to us and seek to use us, instead of trying to make mutually beneficient arrangements. That elders make plans to keep us here by any means, and are prepared to kill us to prevent our leaving.

For Keiko: getting out now and stealing the scroll later is even in line with Takahashi's plan. After all, he claims that he wants the scroll out of the village. Well, we can do that. On our terms. As for summoning, we will find her a better teacher than a guy who can't even use it himself. Maybe trade favors with Jiraiya. If she even needs a special teacher for that and Takahashi wasn't messing with her, and the rest of us.

Kagome should be fine with leaving the stinkers and going back to properly defended place.

Akane's dreams are bigger than this trap. She deserves better.

We all deserve better than being stuck in this mud hole at the mercy of elders, and that's where things seem to be heading.

Have Kagome gather seals that can be recovered without compromising the perimeter, rig the rest to self-destruct once we leave (the goal is to deny knowledge rather than kill, arrange self-destruction accordingly)

Pack up whatever's left and leave. (Did we ever make that escape tunnel?)

Sneak out (stealth? genjutsu? maybe Noburi has some airborne sleeping powder or something for the situation?) just run if detected, (set off a smoke bomb to conceal our exit?) disable immediate threats non-lethally if possible.

E&E time: employ anti-tracking maneuvers. Tree-hopping, kawarimi, water-walking, clone tricks...

Occasionally leave behind proximity-activated explosive tag to discourage pursuit, though not so many that they make a trail. Leave fewer of those the farther we get from ninja village.

Return to our Fort.

Contingencies:

On the run we stick together, at least till we reach the relative safety of our fort. (yes, that means potty-break buddies till we make it. Get over it)

If village ninja do come after us, withhold nothing at any point once combat begins. We'll be fighting for our lives. Always use lethal methods. Take no prisoners.

____
If this looks familiar, well, it should. Dropped the Fort content, it can go into next plan if running wins.

I want Takahashi dead but ~~not sure how to work it into plan without upsetting Kei.~~
it presents challenges of it's own. Silencing him is good, and a dead elder should shake the village up and, hopefully, distract from us, at least a little. On the other hand assassinations are risky, Takahashi knows Mari's spec, and he might've shared the info he gained already. Also if the village does plan to stay isolated that information is of limited harm to us.

I also want us to sit pretty for the next few days after the meeting, maybe up to Kagome's birthday, so the village is less suspicious. However if we decide to run away I don't know how Kei will keep it secret. Keeping her out of the loop doesn't appeal to me, either.

Nah, not leaving more time for things to go wrong. We exfiltrate asap. Not leaving time for Yuno's info on our camp to be used, either.

Re: Yuno, our best bet is to try to lose her. She might come after us, with elders' blessing or without, we'll hopefully deal with it then. Trying to break things off or hint that we might disappear soon, will end in a disaster, or her coming with us (which sounds like another, less immediate disaster to me)

Otherwise this is us pretty much going "screw it" and running for the hills.
- Hopefully without killing everyone in our way. I wanna make the initial break-off as painless as possible, as last effort to keep our peace. Not at the cost of our lives/limbs tho.
- Unless they insist on going after us after we leave. At that point, anything goes.

Once there we bunker up and settle down. Plenty of stuff for one update methinks, we can decide what do/train/whatever next vote, once we know what we're dealing with (open pursuit? siege? complete lack of retaliation?)

Once we're sufficiently buffed up (yes hello sealing and stuff) we can skip the village stage, go for the Sanctuary (or whatever that place was called) and get the Scroll. Once we have it we can figure out the summoning thing on our own time and terms, including cashing in favors from Jiraiya (once we earn them)

We'll get our cake yet.

______
Tag me for improvements, or take the bits you like.

Now firmly in favor or getting out ASAP, still not sure we can kill Takahashi without risking too much. Our one advantage is that he might be so convinced we want his teachings, we'd never harm him. Even so he probably takes precautions, and Keiko will be upset enough by leaving, without us killing the guy she likes. I get a feeling Mari would also prefer to minimize murer, for personal reasons.

Of course him being alive would make things more difficult on our inevitable return. Argh.

SoothingCoffee · May 27, 2016

[X] Action Plan: Assimilation my a-

Muer'ci said:
Now firmly in favor or getting out ASAP, still not sure we can kill Takahashi without risking too much. Our one advantage is that he might be so convinced we want his teachings, we'd never harm him. Even so he probably takes precautions, and Keiko will be upset enough by leaving, without us killing the guy she likes. I get a feeling Mari would also prefer to minimize murer, for personal reasons.

Of course him being alive would make things more difficult on our inevitable return. Argh.

Until further notice, Imma assume that Keiko is becoming a liability. If in the next update Keiko won't snap out of it 'till the point of risking the entire team, Imma vote to K her off. That said, if leaving wins, I'm thinking to just sic Jiraiya on the Village. The Summoning Scroll isn't worth it when said potential Summoner ain't gonna work with you.

Cariyaga · May 27, 2016

I'd rather have a conversation with our team first, before we make any such decisions; also consider that Keiko may not want to go, and may very well refuse to think on any plans we have. We HAVE to address that and the thing with Noburi.

HyperCatnip · May 27, 2016

@Cariyaga, if Keiko wants to stay it just means we will have to subdue and kidnap her, of course. Or, maybe, kill her. But I'd rather avoid it if possible.

Jello_Raptor · May 27, 2016

In order to steal blatantly from @Muer'ci, I added "steal scroll, run, get Jiraya's help" to the set of options to discuss with Inoue. There's also a few new questions about the logistics of stealing the scroll.

Jello_Raptor said:
[X] Action Plan: Poor Communication Kills

This entire plan should take no more than a few hours immediately after the meeting. Once the scenes are done, the update should end, and allow us to vote on further action.

Conversation 1: Inoue's Information

Before the debrief: Everyone makes sure the only people around are Inoue, Keiko, Noburi, Kagome, Akane, and Us. Minimize chance of external eavesdropping as best each of us can.

Let Inoue debrief us off screen unless she has something new to add.

We want to see how everyone reacts.

We react to the news of Kannagi's betrayal by dispelling, then we react as the thread approximately has.

Mention possible options of "Burn it all", "Run away quickly", and "Roll with it until we have the scroll, then one of the first two".

Ask everyone what they think about those options, both how amenable they are to them, and concerns with them.

Conversation 2: Needling Noburi

Make sure this is private, with only Nobby and Us listening.

Ask him how he's feeling about the Yuno betrothal stuff.

Ask him how he would feel about the following options:

Run away immediately, leaving Yuno behind.

Run away but take Yuno with us.

Letting the marriage go through and staying.

Finding some way to disrupt the marriage while still staying. (Politically incredibly bad).

If he seems amenable to advice:

Point out that arranged marriages do happen and if both parties are reasonable, willing to compromise, and care about each other's well-being then love will often come in the long term.

If those things aren't there then it's really difficult to create happiness and stability.

Do you know why Yuno is considered cursed? If not, what is your guess? Also, could you ask her next time you get the chance?

Does he think Yuno's reliable? Does he actually want to be in a relationship with her?

Conversation 3: Keiko Concerns

Talk to Inoue privately about Keiko's mental state.

Mention what she said to us, and our concerns about:

Takahashi worsening her depression.

Takahashi suborning her loyalty.

That we fear her crush on Inoue might now be her strongest tie to the team.

Ask Inoue what we could do about this. Mention following options and ask for her opinion on them:

<Looking for contributions on specific remedies for Keiko's mental state>

We could run, steal the scroll, and get Jiraya to teach Keiko the neccesary information.

Spend more time with the party. A N-days-on N-days-off schedule with Takahasi.

Find some way to give her active leadership again, some task which forces her to worry about our well-being.

Bad Option: genjitsu mind-fuckery

Bad Option: play into the crush to tie her deeper to our group

Conversation 4: Kagome's Catastrophes

Talk to Inoue and Kagome, again privately.

Ask both of them about their estimate of our tactical and strategic combat position.

How capable are we of destroying this place? How much time would it take for Kagome to deploy explosive seals all over town, enough to obliterate everything/kill most people?

How capable are we of an assasination? against Takahashi? other leaders? could we make it look like an accident?

How effectively can we run away? Kill pursuers?

How much do we know about the scroll's security measures? Do they think we could steal it? destroy it?

Ask Kagome "Pretend you're the one designing the scroll security measures but with the tools you think village sealmasters have. Would you, with your actual skillset, be able to get through that?"

Conversation 5: Akane Assessment

Talks to Akane, again privately.

Mention that she shouldn't have brought Yuno into the base. What if she sneaks in at night to steal/stab Noburi?

Try to be a little less trusting of people she doesn't know well or who don't have the trust of the entire team.

Tell her to ask herself "what would Hazou do?" when dealing with non-group members. This won't always be the right option, but it should always be an option she considers carefully.

Be kind and understanding as we talk with Akane.

Give her a hug if she wants. Tell her that we understand how hard this is for her.

The update needs to end no later than 8 in-game hours after Inoue gets back, allowing us to vote again. We should also schedule this update so we have some time to talk to Keiko/others immediately afterwards (Immediately afterwards in game time, two updates from now in external time).

I want to make sure that if we run, we take the entire team with us. That means knowing how they feel about things and gathering more information on their mental state.

We have very little to lose by doing this and the information we gain can allow us to keep the team together no matter what option we choose next.

Edit 1: Changed "Proto-Plan" to "Plan". Added an explicit call for people's opinions in Conversation 1. Added note to leave some time to talk to Keiko/others. Added some explanation/justifications to the rear end of the plan.

Edit 2: Voted for own plan ...

Edit 3: Added some options for helping Keiko to Conversation 3

Edit 4: Added note to ask Nobby about Yuno's cursed status. Added Conversation 5.

Edit 5: Grammar and spelling. Added Akane Hug.

Edit 6: Changed "Scene" to "Conversation" so that the plan is a little less prescriptive to the QMs. Added "Run and get jiraya to tech keiko" to possible options to discuss with INoue. Added questions about stealing the scroll.

Edit: Oh wow, we're on page 600 now.

Cariyaga · May 27, 2016

HyperCatnip said:
@Cariyaga, if Keiko wants to stay it just means we will have to subdue and kidnap her, of course. Or, maybe, kill her. But I'd rather avoid it if possible.

Frankly, that's not an idea I can imagine anyone in the party agreeing to (to say nothing of, well, the other players).

HyperCatnip · May 27, 2016

@Jello_Raptor, I am very much in favor of gathering our teammates' opinions. We will need to know their positions to plan effectively.

The thing I object strongly to is letting their opinions to influence our actions.

I don't respect Keiko's opinion, and neither should you. If Keiko says she wants to stay, it really means that Takahashi succeeded in his brainwashing, Keiko is compromised, and now we need to subdue and kidnap her.

I don't respect Noburi's opinion and neither should you. His judgment is clouded by Yuno's charm.

I respect Mari's opinion, but remember: she is our loved, but slightly ditzy big sister.

I respect Kagome's opinion. His level of paranoia is either completely correct, or slightly excessive.

Whatever we do, let's not accept Noburi's and Keiko's "I want to stay here forever" with " Okay! I'm so happy for you! Have fun!"

Jello_Raptor · May 27, 2016

To be less prescriptive to the QMs, added a note that they should feel ok with ending the update early as long as they go in order and we get a corresponding in-game time benefit.

Jello_Raptor said:
[X] Action Plan: Poor Communication Kills

This entire plan should take no more than a few hours immediately after the meeting. Once the conversations are done, the update should end, and allow us to vote on further action.

Conversation 1: Inoue's Information

Before the debrief: Everyone makes sure the only people around are Inoue, Keiko, Noburi, Kagome, Akane, and Us. Minimize chance of external eavesdropping as best each of us can.

Let Inoue debrief us off screen unless she has something new to add.

We want to see how everyone reacts.

We react to the news of Kannagi's betrayal by dispelling, then we react as the thread approximately has.

Mention possible options of "Burn it all", "Run away quickly", and "Roll with it until we have the scroll, then one of the first two".

Ask everyone what they think about those options, both how amenable they are to them, and concerns with them.

Conversation 2: Keiko Concerns

Talk to Inoue privately about Keiko's mental state.

Mention what she said to us, and our concerns about:

Takahashi worsening her depression.

Takahashi suborning her loyalty.

That we fear her crush on Inoue might now be her strongest tie to the team.

Ask Inoue what we could do about this. Mention following options and ask for her opinion on them:

<Looking for contributions on specific remedies for Keiko's mental state>

We could run, steal the scroll, and get Jiraya to teach Keiko the neccesary information.

Spend more time with the party. A N-days-on N-days-off schedule with Takahasi.

Find some way to give her active leadership again, some task which forces her to worry about our well-being.

Bad Option: genjitsu mind-fuckery

Bad Option: play into the crush to tie her deeper to our group

Conversation 3: Kagome's Catastrophes

Talk to Inoue and Kagome, again privately.

Ask both of them about their estimate of our tactical and strategic combat position.

How capable are we of destroying this place? How much time would it take for Kagome to deploy explosive seals all over town, enough to obliterate everything/kill most people?

How capable are we of an assasination? against Takahashi? other leaders? could we make it look like an accident?

How effectively can we run away? Kill pursuers?

How much do we know about the scroll's security measures? Do they think we could steal it? destroy it?

Ask Kagome "Pretend you're the one designing the scroll security measures but with the tools you think village sealmasters have.

Would you, with your actual skillset, be able to get through that?"

Conversation 4: Needling Noburi

Make sure this is private, with only Nobby and Us listening.

Ask him how he's feeling about the Yuno betrothal stuff.

Ask him how he would feel about the following options:

Run away immediately, leaving Yuno behind.

Run away but take Yuno with us.

Letting the marriage go through and staying.

Finding some way to disrupt the marriage while still staying. (Politically incredibly bad).

If he seems amenable to advice:

Point out that arranged marriages do happen and if both parties are reasonable, willing to compromise, and care about each other's well-being then love will often come in the long term.

If those things aren't there then it's really difficult to create happiness and stability.

Do you know why Yuno is considered cursed? If not, what is your guess? Also, could you ask her next time you get the chance?

Does he think Yuno's reliable? Does he actually want to be in a relationship with her?

Conversation 5: Akane Assessment

Talks to Akane, again privately.

Mention that she shouldn't have brought Yuno into the base. What if she sneaks in at night to steal/stab Noburi?

Try to be a little less trusting of people she doesn't know well or who don't have the trust of the entire team.

Tell her to ask herself "what would Hazou do?" when dealing with non-group members. This won't always be the right option, but it should always be an option she considers carefully.

Be kind and understanding as we talk with Akane.

Give her a hug if she wants. Tell her that we understand how hard this is for her.

The update needs to end no later than 8 in-game hours after Inoue gets back, allowing us to vote again. We should also schedule this update so we have some time to talk to Keiko/others immediately afterwards (Immediately afterwards in game time, two updates from now in external time). Feel free to not go through all the conversations as long as they go in order and the update ends as early as possible in-game.

I want to make sure that if we run, we take the entire team with us. That means knowing how they feel about things and gathering more information on their mental state.

We have very little to lose by doing this and the information we gain can allow us to keep the team together no matter what option we choose next.

Edit 1: Changed "Proto-Plan" to "Plan". Added an explicit call for people's opinions in Conversation 1. Added note to leave some time to talk to Keiko/others. Added some explanation/justifications to the rear end of the plan.

Edit 2: Voted for own plan ...

Edit 3: Added some options for helping Keiko to Conversation 3

Edit 4: Added note to ask Nobby about Yuno's cursed status. Added Conversation 5.

Edit 5: Grammar and spelling. Added Akane Hug.

Edit 6: Changed "Scene" to "Conversation" so that the plan is a little less prescriptive to the QMs. Added "Run and get jiraya to tech keiko" to possible options to discuss with INoue. Added questions about stealing the scroll.

Edit 7: Added note that QMs don't have to write all the conversations as long as they short circuit correspondingly early. Re-ordered the conversations in the order I want to have them.

Cariyaga · May 27, 2016

HyperCatnip said:
@Jello_Raptor, I am very much in favor of gathering our teammates' opinions. We will need to know their positions to plan effectively.

The thing I object strongly to is letting their opinions to influence our actions.

I don't respect Keiko's opinion, and neither should you. If Keiko says she wants to stay, it really means that Takahashi succeeded in his brainwashing, Keiko is compromised, and now we need to subdue and kidnap her.

I don't respect Noburi's opinion and neither should you. His judgment is clouded by Yuno's charm.

I respect Mari's opinion, but remember: she is our loved, but slightly ditzy big sister.

I respect Kagome's opinion. His level of paranoia is either completely correct, or slightly excessive.

Whatever we do, let's not accept Noburi's and Keiko's "I want to stay here forever" with " Okay! I'm so happy for you! Have fun!"

I don't really agree with your depiction of Mari, but, either way, I'm not suggesting that we respect their opinions and let them stay; just that we try convincing them to leave rather than engendering bad feelings by removing them against their will. Given the option, I'd rather try convincing them to leave -- I suspect Mari would be able to, if nothing else.

MadScientist · May 27, 2016

[X] Action Plan: Poor Communication Kills

@HyperCatnip

If Keiko and Noburi want to stay then that means they're compromised and need to be deprogrammed.
This plan doesn't actually say we should bow to their opinion, just to ask what it is.

Twofold · May 27, 2016

I was going to write a plan around the blackmail thing but looking at Assimilation my a- I don't think I need to bother. Setting up a backup blackmail letter is just a solid continuation if we are planning on staying on Tea, even if we just do Sealing and don't go back to the village. I mean, the villagers must have some experience getting around Tea and our Stealth is not really high enough to drop all tracking.

Preparing the letter runs some risk of revealing the village but that is small price to pay for the added security. I'm debating whether we should leave a note to the villagers saying: "If you follow us, we will reveal your existence to everyone." Anyone have thoughts on that?

@Muer'ci I suggest the following additions to the plan:

On talking to Keiko:

Tell Keiko that we are worried about how she is distancing herself from the group and don't think it's safe for her to go back to Takahashi anymore (No reason to coddle her, this is why we are leaving and we should tell her as much, imo)
1. Refer to our earlier discussion with her, where she included herself in the village in-group and us in the out-group
Prepare covertly to subdue Keiko (with help from Inoue) in the case she is actually compromised and doesn't want to leave

On escaping the village:

Have Mari head out first and see if she can take out the watchmen stealthily, preferably with genjutsu.
Be on the lookout for Seals

On covering our tracks:

Head west towards the coast and acquire (steal) a boat
Make a short sea trip to cut our trail and then head back to the fort.

Backup Blackmail Letter (Someone should check this part for flaws. Also, is it too confusing?)

Prepare a letter detailing our current knowledge about the village
1. Use Jiraya specific cipher or booby trap it with a Seal that Jiraya would have no trouble disarming. Maybe both if it seems sensible to Inoue.
Take the letter to Jiraya's agent we know and ask him to set up a delivery for it if we don't send a word in a month (Not sure about this timeframe)
1. Ask him to send the letter to an intermediary, preferably outside Tea, who will do the actual sending if he doesn't get a letter with all the proper passwords in time
2. Have all party members write down a private password and seal them all inside an instruction letter that Jiraya's agent delivers to the intermediary
  1. The passwords are there to counter blackmailing, and should be kept secret from other party members, this way no-one can call the letter back alone
  2. Note in the instruction letter that further instructions what to do with the letter may also be sent with the dont-send passwords

Jello_Raptor · May 27, 2016

HyperCatnip said:
@Jello_Raptor, I am very much in favor of gathering our teammates' opinions. We will need to know their positions to plan effectively.

The thing I object strongly to is letting their opinions to influence our actions.

I don't respect Keiko's opinion, and neither should you. If Keiko says she wants to stay, it really means that Takahashi succeeded in his brainwashing, Keiko is compromised, and now we need to subdue and kidnap her.

I don't respect Noburi's opinion and neither should you. His judgment is clouded by Yuno's charm.

I respect Mari's opinion, but remember: she is our loved, but slightly ditzy big sister.

I respect Kagome's opinion. His level of paranoia is either completely correct, or slightly excessive.

Whatever we do, let's not accept Noburi's and Keiko's "I want to stay here forever" with " Okay! I'm so happy for you! Have fun!"

Speaking only for myself and not my plan's voter base:

Yup. Keiko's judgement is fucked, and so is Nobby's. Regardless we need to know how they feel to make a good plan for convincing them to leave with us. Otherwise we're stuck drugging them and dragging them along. Something they will not forgive us for.

Likewise, Inoue and Kagome have valuable information that we will only easily get if we ask. We do need to keep in mind that their judgement is not perfect, but that just means the evidence they provide is weaker, not that they provide no evidence.

That said I do trust Akane. Not her judgement but her loyalty. I think we can count on that to significant extent against anyone not of the team.

The coupled need for information, inability to make a solid plan without information, and time sensitive nature of events means that I think we need a short time scale plan. A plan that lets us vote again quickly after we get the info. This is an instance where pre-commitment fucks us over, hard.

Speaking for/to my plan's voter base:

I'm trying to be diligent about including all the major options we discuss in this thread because they all need more information to succeed. I will not privilege "run away and steal the scroll" over all the other plans in the discussion simply because I like it.

I'm honestly not sure what everyone will end up supporting, but this is the best way to make sure that vote-after-next is as successful as possible no matter which option is chosen.

The only exception is things that need to happen right away. The only thing I can think of where a few hours matter is trying to steal the scroll while the council is still in session over Gasai. (Assuming I'm reading the update correctly and the Kannagi election happens before the Gasai trial, and we're not in the room for the Gasai trail proper)
Any plan we propose would have to be vague and contain an immense number of contingencies simply because we've not already done recon. Likewise, the benefit of having all the elders distracted seems offset by the fact that the elders are all in one place where a single messenger could inform them all at once and they can coordinate effectively.

I'm also trying to limit our actions to things with minimal long-term impact. This is why there's no chat with Keiko and why I won't add one. We need to discuss the issue with Inoue first, she has a deeper knowledge of Keiko's mental state and a bigger set of tools to work with it. Any interventions can wait till vote-after-next.

Speaking to the Quest Masters:

The final thing is that this is really fucking hard. In particular making a plan that's constricting enough that our options aren't hugely limited afterwards, while not being so prescriptive that it pisses our QMs off. I'm trying my best, and would really appreciate any suggestions on how to make it better.

Apologies in advance if this one gets voted in @eaglejarl, as much as we hate you for being an evil sonuvabitch, we do appreciate the time you (and the other QMs) put into this quest.

faflec · May 27, 2016

It costs us nothing to speak with Kannagi/Takakashi/whatever immediately after the meeting and get an impression of how they're going to act in the near future, and (if they prove to be completely against us) act furious but unable to figure out a way out. Might I suggest plans add something along these lines?

We at least attempt to gain information on the off chance something useful is going on and more importantly it gives us this air of "we're-pissed-but-can't-do-shit" not an air of "we're-fucking-out".

Edit: I mean the "vote for the next elder" meeting, not the "vote + decide Gasai fate" meeting.

Twofold · May 27, 2016

Jello_Raptor said:
Keiko's judgement is fucked, and so is Nobby's.

I don't actually think there's any danger of Nobby trying to stay if we suggest leaving. He might suggest that we try to take Yuno with us, but there is pretty strong evidence that the girl is super crazy and Noburi is not that stupid. Honestly, he's not! He just seems like that sometimes.

As a side note, I don't believe even Keiko is that far gone yet. If we confront her about the brainwashing and just plainly say that we don't think the risk is worth it anymore, I don't see her actually betraying us. It might be funny to see how "everything will fail" -girl tries to argue how this one thing will totally turn really well for us.

Muer'ci · May 27, 2016

Muer'ci said:
[X] Action Plan: Assimilation my a-

Playing politics was fun for a while, but it's time to change the game before we lose.

We won't be subverting ninjaville any time soon, and killing everyone will make Akane sad (probably Jiraiya too, if/when he finds out) so I suggest we remember what we really came here for - the Summoning Scroll. With that said...

Goals:

Survive.

Get out and away from here, and return to our Fort.

Try to do it without killing random people in the village, though anyone who follows us beyond it is fair game.

Come back once we're stronger and the hustle dies down a bit, probably in a couple of months or so, we'll see how it goes.

Methods:

Wait patiently for the meeting to conclude. Don't rock the boat. Once it's over, all of us return to our camp.

Once back at the camp, Mari shares what she learned earlier with us.

Convince the group that it's time to leave:

In private, tell Mari about our conversation with Keiko, voice concern over Keiko's attitude to both the team and life and Takahashi's influence on her.

Point out to Noburi that Kannagi lied about canceling the betrothal, that 13 is too young to choose a partner for life and that there are plenty of pretty girls out there who don't act like they might murder people for disagreeing with them.

Remind everyone of the times we were attacked, of people spreading vile rumours about us, that our so-called allies make us sit on seals, lie to us and seek to use us, instead of trying to make mutually beneficient arrangements. That elders make plans to keep us here by any means, and are prepared to kill us to prevent our leaving.

For Keiko: getting out now and stealing the scroll later is even in line with Takahashi's plan. After all, he claims that he wants the scroll out of the village. Well, we can do that. On our terms. As for summoning, we will find her a better teacher than a guy who can't even use it himself. Maybe trade favors with Jiraiya. If she even needs a special teacher for that and Takahashi wasn't messing with her, and the rest of us.

Kagome should be fine with leaving the stinkers and going back to properly defended place.

Akane's dreams are bigger than this trap. She deserves better.

We all deserve better than being stuck in this mud hole at the mercy of elders, and that's where things seem to be heading.

Have Kagome gather seals that can be recovered without compromising the perimeter, rig the rest to self-destruct once we leave (the goal is to deny knowledge rather than kill, arrange self-destruction accordingly)

Pack up whatever's left and leave. (Did we ever make that escape tunnel?)

Have Mari head out first and see if she can take out the watchmen stealthily, preferably with genjutsu.

Be on the lookout for Seals

Sneak out (stealth? genjutsu? maybe Noburi has some airborne sleeping powder or something for the situation?) just run if detected, (set off a smoke bomb to conceal our exit?) disable immediate threats non-lethally if possible.

E&E time: employ anti-tracking maneuvers. Tree-hopping, kawarimi, water-walking, clone tricks...

Occasionally leave behind proximity-activated explosive tag to discourage pursuit, though not so many that they make a trail. Leave fewer of those the farther we get from ninja village.

Head west towards the coast and acquire (steal) a boat

Make a short sea trip to cut our trail and then head back to the fort.

Return to our Fort.

Contingencies:

On the run we stick together, at least till we reach the relative safety of our fort. (yes, that means potty-break buddies till we make it. Get over it)

If village ninja do come after us, withhold nothing at any point once combat begins. We'll be fighting for our lives. Always use lethal methods. Take no prisoners.

____
If this looks familiar, well, it should. Dropped the Fort content, it can go into next plan if running wins.

I want Takahashi dead but ~~not sure how to work it into plan without upsetting Kei.~~
it presents challenges of it's own. Silencing him is good, and a dead elder should shake the village up and, hopefully, distract from us, at least a little. On the other hand assassinations are risky, Takahashi knows Mari's spec, and he might've shared the info he gained already. Also if the village does plan to stay isolated that information is of limited harm to us.

I also want us to sit pretty for the next few days after the meeting, maybe up to Kagome's birthday, so the village is less suspicious. However if we decide to run away I don't know how Kei will keep it secret. Keeping her out of the loop doesn't appeal to me, either.

Nah, not leaving more time for things to go wrong. We exfiltrate asap. Not leaving time for Yuno's info on our camp to be used, either.

Re: Yuno, our best bet is to try to lose her. She might come after us, with elders' blessing or without, we'll hopefully deal with it then. Trying to break things off or hint that we might disappear soon, will end in a disaster, or her coming with us (which sounds like another, less immediate disaster to me)

Otherwise this is us pretty much going "screw it" and running for the hills.
- Hopefully without killing everyone in our way. I wanna make the initial break-off as painless as possible, as last effort to keep our peace. Not at the cost of our lives/limbs tho.
- Unless they insist on going after us after we leave. At that point, anything goes.

Once there we bunker up and settle down. Plenty of stuff for one update methinks, we can decide what do/train/whatever next vote, once we know what we're dealing with (open pursuit? siege? complete lack of retaliation?)

Once we're sufficiently buffed up (yes hello sealing and stuff) we can skip the village stage, go for the Sanctuary (or whatever that place was called) and get the Scroll. Once we have it we can figure out the summoning thing on our own time and terms, including cashing in favors from Jiraiya (once we earn them)

We'll get our cake yet.

______
Tag me for improvements, or take the bits you like.

Twofold said:
On talking to Keiko:

Tell Keiko that we are worried about how she is distancing herself from the group and don't think it's safe for her to go back to Takahashi anymore (No reason to coddle her, this is why we are leaving and we should tell her as much, imo)

Refer to our earlier discussion with her, where she included herself in the village in-group and us in the out-group

Prepare covertly to subdue Keiko (with help from Inoue) in the case she is actually compromised and doesn't want to leave

I.. kinda don't want to kidnap Keiko, and I'm not sure telling a compromised person she's compromised is a good idea. I do like the idea of having her look into Takahashi's deal with her special insight. The way I see it, if we fail to persuade the group to run (or enough of the group for others to fall in line) the plan just shuts down and we figure out where to go from here. That our plans have been working out pretty well works in our favor. We might get benefit of doubt from those on the fence.

Twofold said:
Backup Blackmail Letter (Someone should check this part for flaws. Also, is it too confusing?)

I'd rather save this for next time, if running wins. My plan literally ends with reaching the fort, we can work from there, that includes blackmail.

Other stuff included, thanks.

Cariyaga · May 27, 2016

Muer'ci said:
I.. kinda don't want to kidnap Keiko, and I'm not sure telling a compromised person she's compromised is a good idea. I do like the idea of having her look into Takahashi's deal with her special insight. The way I see it, if we fail to persuade the group to run (or enough of the group for others to fall in line) the plan just shuts down and we figure out where to go from here. That our plans have been working out pretty well works in our favor. We might get benefit of doubt from those on the fence.

I'd rather save this for next time, if running wins. My plan literally ends with reaching the fort, we can work from there, that includes blackmail.

Other stuff included, thanks.

If my familiarity with tropes does not fail me, having her look into something that she doesn't want to know with her special insight could turn out... poorly in any number of ways.

e: Not that I'm suggesting the story runs on tropes or anything like that, just... that seems like the kind of downside the bloodline would have, you know?

Muer'ci · May 27, 2016

Well. Breaking her illusions could be good for her in the long run, and hella bad in the short term esp. if she's stressed already. It's not in the plan anyway. I might work it in if I figure out how to do it and mitigate negative aspects.

Or we just gamble that Hazou's judgement be respected one more time.

It will be interesting if others decide to stick around. I'm very nearly prepared to advocate for Hazou leaving on his own/with Akane. That would include calling J for help, so I'm counting on some support

Twofold · May 27, 2016

Muer'ci said:
I.. kinda don't want to kidnap Keiko, and I'm not sure telling a compromised person she's compromised is a good idea. I do like the idea of having her look into Takahashi's deal with her special insight. The way I see it, if we fail to persuade the group to run (or enough of the group for others to fall in line) the plan just shuts down and we figure out where to go from here. That our plans have been working out pretty well works in our favor. We might get benefit of doubt from those on the fence.

I think telling the compromised person that she is compromised is just good communication. I mean really, if Keiko thinks the thing through she will have to admit that we are the ones who care about her and are on her side. The danger might come if she gets on some sort of "I must save the group from themselves!" -bender but even that can be argued against reasonably.

The problem with floating the idea of an escape with Keiko and then not following through with is that the story will probably make its way to Takahashi. And really, if Keiko doesn't want to come with us she is really compromised and that should make our escape even more high priority than it currently is. Knocking her out and dragging her away with force is the sensible reaction if she wants to stay. If we don't put that in as an option and she says no, the QMs might just write along and we spend another week in the village with Keiko getting even more screwed.

Muer'ci said:
I'd rather save this for next time, if running wins. My plan literally ends with reaching the fort, we can work from there, that includes blackmail.

In that case, you should explicitly state that we want the plan to end when we reach the fort and we start considering our options. Otherwise eaglejarl might just write a week of us not doing anything (or getting attacked by angry axe-ninjas) after we reach the fort.

eaglejarl · May 27, 2016

Jello_Raptor said:
Assuming I'm reading the update correctly and the Kannagi election happens before the Gasai trial, and we're not in the room for the Gasai trail proper

The Kannagi election just happened. There's going to be a short break for lunch, then the trial. All of you will be at the trial, and Inoue will be testifying. It's possible others of you will be called to testify; you haven't been told one way or the other. Inoue has passed on Takahashi's advice about being factual.

Jello_Raptor said:
The final thing is that this is really fucking hard. In particular making a plan that's constricting enough that our options aren't hugely limited afterwards, while not being so prescriptive that it pisses our QMs off. I'm trying my best, and would really appreciate any suggestions on how to make it better.

I'm fine with what you've done. It makes my job easy, isn't psychoticly evil, and makes it easy to advance the plot in the following update without going somewhere that's going to cause major problems in story or out.

As a general rule, I'll speak up if something is bothering me, so you don't need to worry about that. I appreciate your concern though; thank you for taking the trouble.

Jello_Raptor · May 27, 2016

Twofold said:
Backup Blackmail Letter (Someone should check this part for flaws. Also, is it too confusing?)

Prepare a letter detailing our current knowledge about the village

Use Jiraya specific cipher or booby trap it with a Seal that Jiraya would have no trouble disarming. Maybe both if it seems sensible to Inoue.

Take the letter to Jiraya's agent we know and ask him to set up a delivery for it if we don't send a word in a month (Not sure about this timeframe)

Ask him to send the letter to an intermediary, preferably outside Tea, who will do the actual sending if he doesn't get a letter with all the proper passwords in time

Have all party members write down a private password and seal them all inside an instruction letter that Jiraya's agent delivers to the intermediary

The passwords are there to counter blackmailing, and should be kept secret from other party members, this way no-one can call the letter back alone

Note in the instruction letter that further instructions what to do with the letter may also be sent with the dont-send passwords

While I'm not going to vote for this right now, I think it's an incredibly important thing to do if we decide to stay.

So here's some stuff to try and help that effort.

@eaglejarl, @Velorien, @Jackercracks : Can we assume Inoue has a private cipher set up with Jiraiya already? Are people aware of the idea of keyed ciphers, as defined below?

In particular the following properties hold for a keyed cipher with encryption and decryption functions Enc() and Dec():

Code:

Let K be the set of all Keys.
Let P be the set of all Plaintexts.
Let C be the set of all Ciphertexts.
 
For all k,k' in K where k != k'
For all p,p' in P where p != p'
 
 
Law 1 : If you have the correct decryption key you get the right plaintext
    p == Dec(k,Enc(k,p))
 
Law 2 : If you have the wrong key, you do not get the correct plaintext
    p != Dec(k',Enc(k,p))

Just a note that while the caesar cipher does count, it is a shitty cipher. The vigenere cipher is both simple and should be fine for our purposes as long as our key is long enough.

Such a plan needs to accomplish the following to be useful as a threat:

Get the information to Jiraiya after a suitable delay iff we are damaged as a group.
Be hard to compromise by Jiraya or his spy network.
Be easy for us to pre-empt or delay if neccesary.
Convince the villagers that it is all of the above.

We also need to remember our threat models:

Compromise by Jiraiya or his spy network, who would probably like to know the information ASAP even if they don't act on it immidiately.
Compromise by the village, where they send parties out intercept or destroy the portions of the message.
Compromise by a single suborned individual in our group, who may want to trigger the message early or destroy it.

So, assuming we have a good keyed cipher, we have the following primitives.

A message that opens when all N keys are made available. (Encrypt the message N times with each key, in a known order)
A message where any one key can open it. (Encrypt the message with some key K, then encrypt the key K N times with each extra key. This has the problem of someone having to know more than one of the N keys, or the key K. We should be able to trust Inoue though.)
Any combination of two. So that any subset, or combination of subsets of N are required to decrypt the message. For instance "any 3 passwords are sufficient to decrypt".

The core issue is that these keep messages hidden unless keys are available, so they're not great for a dead man's switch. We need some way to invert that.

And now that I've written it out, I'm blanking on having some clever crypto technique to solve this at the game's tech level. The best I can get is a message that is encrypted with a random key of known length and a message to Jiraya that says. "We found the scroll, we're politicking to get access to it but we need a dead man's switch to use as leverage. Here's a message with the exact location of the scroll so that you can swoop in and get it. Issue is, it's encrypted with a N character key that we're not telling you. You should get a desk-chuunin to start trying to decrypt it with each possible key, that delay should let us blackmail them effectively, but still get you the information eventually if they decide to kill us."

Edit: Don't complain about vigenere character frequency attacks. We can encrypt the main message with a very long random key, and encrypt a message containing that key with something that's probabilistically crack-able.

Velorien · May 27, 2016

Twofold said:
On talking to Keiko:

Tell Keiko that we are worried about how she is distancing herself from the group and don't think it's safe for her to go back to Takahashi anymore (No reason to coddle her, this is why we are leaving and we should tell her as much, imo)
Refer to our earlier discussion with her, where she included herself in the village in-group and us in the out-group

Much as I dislike correcting incorrect assumptions, you do know that what she meant was "you are asking me about my training, which is a thing I am only allowed to discuss with Takahashi and any other members of the Takahashi family who have summoner training"?

Jello_Raptor said:
Speaking to the Quest Masters:

The final thing is that this is really fucking hard. In particular making a plan that's constricting enough that our options aren't hugely limited afterwards, while not being so prescriptive that it pisses our QMs off. I'm trying my best, and would really appreciate any suggestions on how to make it better.

I think that when you're trying to juggle so many balls in the air, and most of them are made of explosives, it's a good move to do things in relatively short time steps, so that you can revise your overall plan in between updates instead of trying to program a perfect solution in advance.

Jello_Raptor said:
@eaglejarl, @Velorien, @Jackercracks : Can we assume Inoue has a private cipher set up with Jiraiya already?

Jiraiya's network has an unknown number of cyphers, one of which Jiraiya has shared with you.

ChronOblivion · May 27, 2016

eaglejarl said:
I had assumed that it was a joke, but I guess you were actually being sincere. I'm sorry you're feeling that way; I would like it if everyone were having a good time.

The lack of immediate feedback on whether it was a good plan at all, plus the gargantuan difficulty of dealing with this ridiculous village and the distinct possibility we are screwing ourselves over in ways too subtle to notice, has just left me exhausted from worrying about everything. We are fighting an entire group of hostile and stubborn diplomancers on their own battlegrounds and every one might be lying to us about everything. Like, I've always stressed a bit about the results of our plan, but I always basically found out how we did. Now I don't and I might not find out until someone dies or converts, or we finally get that damn summon scroll and get the hell out of here.

Plus the introduction of Yuno has brought a whole new headache of Meta Bullshit where we have a sudden crossover'd character in a Quest that has stayed admirably original so far, and we have to decide whether you guys are likely to have transferred all of canon!Yuno's personality, instead of us observing her behaviour and making conclusions from that.

This tiredness might partially be from the week I have had, but I just want to get the scroll that we have bent over backwards for and leave this place to get a simple mission from Jiraiya.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Umumumu

Handsome Gentleperson

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Handsome Gentleperson

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Handsome Gentleperson

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