Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
TaliesinSkye
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Such a plan would be as likely to get Hiashi executed as not. A Hokage cannot tolerate warfare between the clans. They'll clamp down on any hint of that with extreme prejudice. Hiashi isn't stupid enough to risk that. Whatever he did to get back at the Hagoromo would have to be basically legal. So without the hat or the leverage of the loan, what could he do that the Hagoromo are so afraid of despite an alliance with the coalition that got the new Hokage elected?
Raxner
The most dangerous man in an empty room
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Fair, but if that's it, what's it got to do with money they owe the Hyuuga? It's a risk any clan is taking--vote wrong and Byakugan assassins will come for you.
Emstar
The Shining One
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He has someone order a high risk mission behind 7 proxies for ludicrously good pay that they have no choice but to take and orders assassins to murder them from behind another 7 proxies while they're on the job.
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- Omniverse #1345
Or does it even more naturally, by ensuring all but the most dangerous missions are taken before they can get there. Similar to the way Hana was locked out in Mist. More difficult since it would be clan vs clan, but still possible enough to whittle away their manpower.
Exactly. There's a reason everyone voting against him has reasons for doing so.
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TaliesinSkye
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Uh, how's he arrange that 'no choice' part?
He'd need to control almost all of the village's manpower to take every mission save the dangerous ones. Not workable. He just doesn't have enough people to do all the missions he'd have to take.
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Okay, just re-read the rules. Our effective calligraphy is 14, our aspect bonus is 2. This means that the modifier for hurrying while scribing a seal is -2, while the difficulty of the seal is raised into the next bracket, which means a + to the tn of anywhere from 1 to 19.
Effectively we're rolling our calligraphy as anywhere from -7 to 11 compared to what we usually have for that seal.
That's a significant malus, and it really makes me think we should up our calligraphy, maybe saying we've been practicing it on all of our duties as clan head. Our actual skill level is 12, getting that up to 19 would change the range to 0 to 18, which is very significant.
This makes calligraphy something that we want to actually level, rather than something we leave at the bare minimum then rely on IN to shore up. If we get to being able to pass the check for a genin seal thats 15000R per hour. (250R x 60 minutes/hour). Getting to do this with skywalkers would be hilariously busted. That'd be a pretty significant investment in calligraphy but that's fine if we want to do more seal research.
We shouldn't need to re-roll our infusion for the seals, because by definition we're making the same seal in the same style etc., just faster.
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Raxner
The most dangerous man in an empty room
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You're saying that Hyuuga's leverage over the Hogoromos has nothing to do with the money they owe him, but is just a simple fear of assassination? That really wasn't my impression.
He's our political opponent, so we attribute all kinds of nastiness to him, but I'm pretty sure that he's not a near-treasonous Mafia boss.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
You seem to be forgetting the conversation with Minami, where she said flat out if the Hyuuga knew everything her clan could do they would have been killed.
And the money they owe him gives him an effortless chain to yank, fixing that does not make going against him risk free.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
If you are in the hole for 2,000,000 a month somehow, you probably can barely afford to keep food on the table.
Replace this with "Bog standard escort mission with small chances of things going FUBAR, except suddenly missing-nin Jonin coming to murder you." or some other trivial variation.
Or he could leverage assets to have them all but formally blacklisted from most mission providers, shops and businesses, have them cast under suspicion and have to undergo a formal inspection/tax audit, repossess their home, etc.
The question isn't "What can Hiashi do to them?" it's "What is Hiashi willing to do to them?". This man is half a dozen steps away from being effectively omnipotent within this village.
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TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
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One failed assassination or witnessed assassin and he risks his whole clan getting executed for treason by the new Hokage. And even if the new Hokage doesn't do it Hiashi risks other clans uniting to kill the Hyuuga anyway. Hiashi is not going to use violence against Leaf ninja. It's suicidal.
And as @Raxner pointed out, I don't think he's the treasonous type anyway. He'd use legal kinds of pressure.
I suspect this was more baseless fears or painting them as the villain, rather than something that would actually occur. Attempting to exterminate another Leaf clan would get the Hyuuga all dead very, very quickly.
Raxner
The most dangerous man in an empty room
- Location
- Israel
You're absolutely right, I don't remember that conversation. Do you happen to have a link back to that chapter?
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
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We're discussing how he could hurt them once he doesn't have the debt to hold over them. So that rules out economic desperation to force anything.
Hiring assassins against another clan poses an unacceptable risk of Hiashi getting caught and executed for treason anyway. Possibly with the rest of the Hyuuga. It wouldn't be hard to get caught.
I don't believe mission providers have any choice over who accepts missions. Attempting to coerce businesses in this way also risks the coalition against Hiashi retaliating by making it clear they won't do business with businesses that do business with Hiashi. Hiashi's leverage by threatening to take his business elsewhere unless businesses do what he wants has limits because Hiashi's business isn't the only business around.
I don't believe clan heads can order the Tower's administration around. That's the Hokage's remit, and he'd be free to ignore any allegations he likes and even make a judgement against Hiashi for spurious claims that waste the Tower's time.
And I have no idea how you think he'd repossess a house without him both holding the loan on it and them having defaulted on the mortgage. That's not how that works.
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What the fuck happened in the last 12 hours Jesus Christ
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- USA
I feel like any time we start throwing 'near-treasonous' around it is important to remember that the definition of that is something everyone makes up for themselves.
Like, our actual position at this time is that the 'real' Leaf clans, the ones with lots of ninja who have lived here their whole lives, should accept as legitimate that they are outvoted because Naruto, Hazou and Tsunade somehow get 3 votes for a crew you could fit in a lifeboat, which is majority Mist ninja by number and includes at least 2 insane people and one person who is intent on fleeing the city as soon as possible.
They aren't going to couch their objection as 'treason', they are going to say that they are saving the leaf from corruption, dirty foreigners, blah blah blah. They are going to be like 'Mori Ami and the Heartbreaker are trying a social takeover of the city in the wake of our catastrophic losses. We need to kill them and their dupes to save the true leaf, which happens to agree with me.'
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
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Hmm. You seem to believe rather a lot of things then. You should be upfront about this sort of thing in discussion, if you're just going to respond to most things with "I don't believe that is the case." and doggedly insist upon your opinions being axiomatically correct.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
From Chapter 129. Taking on another full clan would be more difficult, but can still be done sufficiently to hurt them.
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- The Void
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- She/Her
The good news is if he starts this it will kick of a civil war that we are heavily favored to win.
Civil war's a bad end. Half of the village taken out means Leaf's fucked.
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Yes which is why it's good news it means Hiashi is less likely to do it
Rihaku
The Internet
Keiko notes in one of the earlier updates that the Mori used indirect economic means to "strangle the liquidity" of another clan to such a degree that its Clan Head was forced to commit seppuku. Economic warfare does not require one to hold debts over one's enemies; you just have to attack one of 1) revenue 2) expenses 3) cashflow 4) wealth storage in an effective manner.
For example, Naruto could wage economic warfare on any clan by underbidding them for all missions of the type their shinobi are suited for, crushing their conditional benefits and thus strangling their income.
I don't think the situation is so dire as that. Firstly, Naruto and Tsunade are both S-rank nin, possibly the only S-ranks Leaf has left, and constitute perhaps 20%+ of Leaf's total military might in a full mobilization scenario. That they should have an above-average degree of say is defensible and may even seem obvious, especially since Senju Tsunade is the only remaining heiriess of the Leaf's primary founding clan.
Secondly, the Goketsu are the only legacy of Jiraiya, a war hero who contributed enormously to Leaf on every front and who sacrificed his life to save the world. To fail to respect the standing of the clan that he founded would be a grievous affront to his sacrifice. How could any Hidden Village (or military) enforce the loyalty of its elites if those elites had any credible fear that their families would be ruined without them there to oversee its interests? The merest risk of such would prevent elites from giving their lives in battle.
Between Tsunade, the Goketsu and Keiko this faction commands three summoning scrolls and at least two sealmasters, including the inventor and most prolific generator of the Skywalker seal.
They are also allied with the Nara, perhaps Leaf's second most powerful Clan who explicitly honor their pre-commitments without fail and who would lose that credibility if they betrayed that alliance. And perhaps most importantly, they have Mari who may be the strongest (bar Tsunade) surviving social spec jounin alive within Leaf.
Raxner
The most dangerous man in an empty room
- Location
- Israel
Oh, I didn't mean that he's committing treason or anything like it by competing for the hat. That's just politics. I was saying that if he would use threats of violence against Leaf ninja--and certainly against whole clans!--that didn't do what he wanted, that would be near treason.
For a real-world comparison, imagine if the commanding general of the U.S. Army were to try to bully Congress, the President, and the judicial system by threatening to send army sharpshooters to kill anyone that opposed him politically. That wouldn't be defined under the U.S. Constitution as treason (I think--I am not a lawyer), but it would be a crime awfully close to it, and it would certainly result in a massive crackdown and presumably a noose around his neck.
Well, the Clans collectively basically are the government of Leaf. If you're going to try to bully them with threats of violence, I think you're in a very similar position to that hypothetical warlord. Even clanless ninja are an important part of Leaf's military might (particularly jonin, of course), and threatening them with lawless violence is in the same general category, I think.
Thanks for the reference! I'm not sure that Minami is correct--she may be an unreliable narrator--but I'm glad to know exactly what she said.
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Nitpick: Tsunade at least is a two time war hero whose family built this village, and Naruto is pretty much Leaf's Captain America.
I'm not sure whether the analogy is accurate here. Leaf isn't really a functioning government, its a band of murdering super-powered asshats that decided things would be a little less crazy if they lived in the same town and prevented each other from dying every week or so.
Raxner
The most dangerous man in an empty room
- Location
- Israel
Sure. It's a bunch of murderous super-powered thugs--but they're thugs that think of themselves as a government and would regard the kind of behavior we're discussing as treason.
By the way, you mentioned that part of the reason for having a Hidden Village is "preventing each other from dying every week or so." Well, if Hyuuga's going to use threats of violence against whole Clans to get his way, doesn't that sort of defeat the entire purpose of being the Village Hidden in the Cucumbers, or whatever? We're pretty much back in the Warring States period.
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