Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

[Raxner]

I'm a little curious about the Hagoramo (sp?) loan situation. Why are we talking about handing them money to refinance the debt at all? Why not have Kagome and/or Hazo (probably Kagome) teach a couple of promising young Hagoramos enough sealing that they can make and sell explosive tags? Then the Hagoramo Clan can take care of their own financial issues. Teach a man to fish and all that.

 

[Jello_Raptor]

9 of them are non-founding clans. There are a bunch of other non-founding clans with whom you are also messing.

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So the income stream from the tower is split between all clans? not just council clans? Are you counting clanless jounin as clans for these purposes?

 

[Jello_Raptor]

Outdated by later model. It's 10% non-conditional, the rest into your conditional find that raises the ceiling on how much you can earn by doing missions.

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Wait, so we sell seals to the tower for 10% cash-on-hand and then have to do missions to unlock the other 90% of the seal income?

We basically have to pay twice (Once via sealing, and once via missions) to get 90% of the seal income!?

How does this work for independent/clanless sealmasters? Does the tower actually force them to go on missions to get their money, putting rare and valuable human resources at needless risk? What about clans with a high sealmaster to ninja ratio, which don't have the manpower to keep from risking their sealmasters in missons?

Edit: I understand the tower not wanting to keep a large amount of liquid cash on hand to pay seal masters with and limiting lump-sum withdrawals. But the scheme you mention fucks over sealmasters and the clans their in.

All of which is at odds with the fact that the Tower sees sealmasters as a precious and fragile resource, and makes being an independent sealmaster much less lucrative.

 

[TaliesinSkye]

How you handle the fact that the interest rate is 12.5% yearly over 10 years? How does that compound? or not compound? Is our lump sum interest 125% of our principal?

The simple fact of us having an interest rate, rather than a lump sum for interest makes that not work.

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You can express the same loan by either method. Compounding would have likely been yearly if they did it. Doing it monthly would have been a whole lot of extra work if they even thought of it. Not sure if it'd been invented yet. Some specifics were hard to find in my research.

If they did want to divide up the interest and principle in the payments they would have done an equal share of each through the loan. Differing proportions for each monthly payment is a huge amount of extra work.

There were also loans that didn't do the monthly payment thing and demanded the whole amount at the end, or kept an active account and the borrower paid it off when they wanted to with the amount owed increasing at the rate of interest. Medieval borrowing was weird.

I'm a little curious about the Hagoramo (sp?) loan situation. Why are we talking about handing them money to refinance the debt at all? Why not have Kagome and/or Hazo (probably Kagome) teach a couple of promising young Hagoramos enough sealing that they can make and sell explosive tags? Then the Hagoramo Clan can take care of their own financial issues. Teach a man to fish and all that.

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Because they want a bribe to help us.

Basically, the way they see the situation is that if Hiashi gets elected they'll survive under Hiashi's thumb controlling their every move, but Goketsu will probably be in an even worse position. Also they're worried that if they piss of Hiashi he'll find some way to hurt them even if they no longer have to worry about paying off the loan. Therefore they think they have the leverage to demand an enormous bribe for their vote and deserve it for the risk they're taking on.

I think that we should tell the others in the coalition about what they're demanding and see if they want to pay it together or negotiate or find another vote that will be easier to obtain.

 

[Raxner]

Because they want a bribe to help us.

Basically, the way they see the situation is that if Hiashi gets elected they'll survive under Hiashi's thumb controlling their every move, but Goketsu will probably be in an even worse position. Also they're worried that if they piss of Hiashi he'll find some way to hurt them even if they no longer have to worry about paying off the loan. Therefore they think they have the leverage to demand an enormous bribe for their vote and deserve it for the risk they're taking on.

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I get that part. Allow me to explain my question more clearly.

By handing them a bunch of cash, we help them right away, but we don't make them fundamentally more powerful. "Here's cash, go do stuff with it till it runs out." That's nice, thanks.

By teaching them sealing, we not only get them out from under the Hyuuga's thumb, we also make them enduringly wealthier, hence more powerful. It's more of a favor to them in terms of benefits received, as well as being less of a pain for us in terms of costs incurred.

It seems to me like teaching them sealing is a win-win; it's better for them and it's better for us.

 

[Rihaku]

So the income stream from the tower is split between all clans? not just council clans? Are you counting clanless jounin as clans for these purposes?

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70% of the Clan Benefits pool is paid to the Founding Clans, 30% to the Non-Founding Clans and Clanless Jounin.

For example, if the total pool were 1000 units, the Founding Clans would divide 700 units among their ~300 members and the Non-Founding Clans and Clanless Jounin would divide 300 units among their ~710 members.

 

[TaliesinSkye]

I get that part. Allow me to explain my question more clearly.

By handing them a bunch of cash, we help them right away, but we don't make them fundamentally more powerful. "Here's cash, go do stuff with it till it runs out." That's nice, thanks.

By teaching them sealing, we not only get them out from under the Hyuuga's thumb, we also make them enduringly wealthier, hence more powerful. It's more of a favor to them in terms of benefits received, as well as being less of a pain for us in terms of costs incurred.

It seems to me like teaching them sealing is a win-win; it's better for them and it's better for us.

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People making seals can't make money doing missions at the same time, so it's not all that much of a benefit. There's also all the risks associated with sealing. And they want us to do the work of making money for them so they don't have to.

 

[Byzantine]

Wait, so we sell seals to the tower for 10% cash-on-hand and then have to do missions to unlock the other 90% of the seal income?

We basically have to pay twice (Once via sealing, and once via missions) to get 90% of the seal income!?

How does this work for independent/clanless sealmasters? Does the tower actually force them to go on missions to get their money, putting rare and valuable human resources at needless risk? What about clans with a high sealmaster to ninja ratio, which don't have the manpower to keep from risking their sealmasters in missons?

Edit: I understand the tower not wanting to keep a large amount of liquid cash on hand to pay seal masters with and limiting lump-sum withdrawals. But the scheme you mention fucks over sealmasters and the clans their in.

All of which is at odds with the fact that the Tower sees sealmasters as a precious and fragile resource, and makes being an independent sealmaster much less lucrative.

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No, you are confused: We get cash for seals we sell, but we *also* get a % of the price of other people's skywalker seals, thanks for Jiraiya. That % is what is added to the clan funding from the tower.

 

[Jello_Raptor]

70% of the Clan Benefits pool is paid to the Founding Clans, 30% to the Non-Founding Clans and Clanless Jounin.

For example, if the total pool were 1000 units, the Founding Clans would divide 700 units among their ~300 members and the Non-Founding Clans and Clanless Jounin would divide 300 units among their ~710 members.

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Then if we're fucking with 2 dozen(ish) clans, only 9 of which are on the council, then around 15 clans are both drawing from the 30% pool of income and don't get to vote on the council.

I have trouble seeing why the people on the council would want to share their cash with people not on it.

No, you are confused: We get cash for seals we sell, but we *also* get a % of the price of other people's skywalker seals, thanks for Jiraiya. That % is what is added to the clan funding from the tower.

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That makes more sense, but I'd like QM confirmation on whether that's how it works.

 

[Byzantine]

Then if we're fucking with 2 dozen(ish) clans, only 9 of which are on the council, then around 15 clans are both drawing from the 30% pool of income and don't get to vote on the council.

I have trouble seeing why the people on the council would want to share their cash with people not on it.

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You are still confused. The 17 voting clans don't share, but Hazo slightly exaggerated the number of clans directly affected (Because EJ didn't actually remember the exact count, and it wasn't important.)

 

[Raxner]

People making seals can't make money doing missions at the same time, so it's not all that much of a benefit. There's also all the risks associated with sealing. And they want us to do the work of making money for them so they don't have to.

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That's three points.

First point--I thought you made a lot more money by making seals than doing missions?

Second, sure there's risks involved with doing sealing. That's why you want Kagome teaching you.

Third, they want us making the money so they don't have to? Hard for me to believe. Naras aside, you can't really be a ninja and be lazy.

 

[Emstar]

Just bonding, I believe. @MMKII?

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Ayup.

It's fine. Feed me ideas.

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Mulling over things. Take your pick of:

• Operatives:
  • Mission desk ninja would be good.
    • Ito Ino
      • ???
    • Pregnant woman with the burn scar
      • Visit house; does she need help doing any chores?
    • Guy that hates lightning nin, goes to the soggy tag
      • Gift some beer/rest of that bottle of Kurohige's
    • Captain Skinwaste That slow chap with the reading disability Skinwaste is a bad word.
      • Make friendly smalltalk and appear interested in his existence.
• Team Nakano + Jitto
  • Ask Akane and her parents beforehand if they'd be willing to vouch for us to the clanless. They'll be wary and a bit suspicious of us being "the real deal". No pressure on that, truly.
  • Offer to put them on retainer: they do favors and misc. tasks in their down time in return for some money, seal loadouts, medical care, etc. The offer for them to learn sealing is still on the table, but needs to wait a few weeks while we put out fires.
  • Insert Uplift speech here. We are serious about improving stuff in this world, and we'd like to get them onboard to help accomplish that.

 

[Byzantine]

That's three points.

First point--I thought you made a lot more money by making seals than doing missions?

Second, sure there's risks involved with doing sealing. That's why you want Kagome teaching you.

Third, they want us making the money so they don't have to? Hard for me to believe. Naras aside, you can't really be a ninja and be lazy.

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You can.

That's true, but it's also not really gonna help sell it.

They want a bribe. You tend to want direct bribes.

 

[Jello_Raptor]

You are still confused. The 17 voting clans don't share, but Hazo slightly exaggerated the number of clans directly affected (Because EJ didn't actually remember the exact count, and it wasn't important.)

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Fair enough, but again, I'd like QM confirmation that the two dozen number is not actually reflective of total non-founding clan count. Especially since we know that there are minor clans who don't get council votes.

Also confirmation that non-council clans don't draw money from the Tower's distribution pool.

 

[Kiba]

That's three points.

First point--I thought you made a lot more money by making seals than doing missions?

Second, sure there's risks involved with doing sealing. That's why you want Kagome teaching you.

Third, they want us making the money so they don't have to? Hard for me to believe. Naras aside, you can't really be a ninja and be lazy.

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People making seals can't make money doing missions at the same time, so it's not all that much of a benefit. There's also all the risks associated with sealing. And they want us to do the work of making money for them so they don't have to.

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They are going to vote no, which will mean that the Hyuga will try to retaliate after the election. So no, they aren't trying to be lazy not working for their own money. It's the price they're asking for since they are going to risk their neck out for us.

Also, we aren't going to refinance their loans and make them beholden to us. We are going to be paying off their loan, no strings attached.

 

[Raxner]

They are going to vote no, which will mean that the Hyuga will try to retaliate after the election. So no, they aren't trying to be lazy not working for their own money. It's the price they're asking for since they are going to risk their neck out for us.

Also, we aren't going to refinance their loans and make them beholden to us. We are going to be paying off their loan, no strings attached.

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Ok, fair. Perhaps we can try to build up goodwill by offering to teach a couple of their guys sealcraft for a modest fee, or even for free? This is separate from the paying off their debt thing.

 

[Rihaku]

Wait, so we sell seals to the tower for 10% cash-on-hand and then have to do missions to unlock the other 90% of the seal income?

We basically have to pay twice (Once via sealing, and once via missions) to get 90% of the seal income!?

How does this work for independent/clanless sealmasters? Does the tower actually force them to go on missions to get their money, putting rare and valuable human resources at needless risk? What about clans with a high sealmaster to ninja ratio, which don't have the manpower to keep from risking their sealmasters in missons?

Edit: I understand the tower not wanting to keep a large amount of liquid cash on hand to pay seal masters with and limiting lump-sum withdrawals. But the scheme you mention fucks over sealmasters and the clans their in.

All of which is at odds with the fact that the Tower sees sealmasters as a precious and fragile resource, and makes being an independent sealmaster much less lucrative.

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My current understanding (which may be incorrect) is this:

1) Royalties collected from seals you have patented equal 50% of the gross revenue of those seals sold to the Kage's Office by other sealmasters. Royalty income is in the 10% + 90% format described above. (Though note that 15% of that latter 90% is in Equipment Credit immediately redeemable and 10% of that latter 90% is in various miscellaneous benefits, so only ~65% of the income thereof is actually contingent on fulfilling your mission quota)

2) Income from seals you produce and sell to the Kage's Office directly is paid out as cash.

It's possible that I'm incorrect on 2) and that said income is also paid out in 10% + 90% fashion, in which case Sealing would be considerably less lucrative, but adopting a high chunin or low jounin Sealmaster (if there is an independent one) would become a lot easier, as every independent sealmaster would have massive amounts of unclaimed credit every month just screaming for a clan that can fulfill missions to cash in. Though even independent sealmasters would still be rich, as their 15% equipment allotment and 10% miscellaneous benefits would be massive.

 

[TaliesinSkye]

They are going to vote no, which will mean that the Hyuga will try to retaliate after the election. So no, they aren't trying to be lazy not working for their own money. It's the price they're asking for since they are going to risk their neck out for us.

Also, we aren't going to refinance their loans and make them beholden to us. We are going to be paying off their loan, no strings attached.

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Well, the strings we're attaching are that they support our choices for the hat and ally themselves with us in exchange for the massive bribe. But that's considerably less bad than the strings that Hiashi has attached to them.

Something I'd like to know is how Hiashi might try to hurt them without having the loan or the hat to jerk them around with. That's the missing part of this puzzle. Where exactly is all the risk there coming from? How could Hiashi hurt another clan without doing something that's going to get him prosecuted?

Ok, fair. Perhaps we can try to build up goodwill by offering to teach a couple of their guys sealcraft for a modest fee, or even for free? This is separate from the paying off their debt thing.

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I think you're making the mistake of expecting people to be rational and adopt whatever is objectively the best course of action instead of sticking to what they're accustomed to doing for generations.

Also, don't underestimate the fear of horrible consequences associated with sealing thing. It's considered the specialty with the highest risk of death during training. Mari actually felt horribly guilty about allowing Kagome to train Hazou in something so dangerous, risking his life to benefit the group.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

So, should I include trying to do this, thread? It'd be insanely profitable, if applied to Skywalkers.

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Apparently the process would be very time-consuming. It's something we might want to look at later, but probably not during this critical week?

A question for the thread: We've been looking at things we can do during this week to swing votes, but I don't recall much discussion on what the Hyuuga are doing, beyond declarations they're going to try and kill us. Presumably they're aware that we and other clans are going to try and swing the vote against them, and try and convince more clans to improve their margin of error. Have we put any thought into what this might look like, and how to stop it? Even if Hiashi is sufficiently out of it in hospital he can't do much, he has an entire clan who want him as Hokage making their own moves.

 

[Arctruth]

Interlude: One More Try​

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Oh. Now I'm sad.

 

[Raxner]

I think you're making the mistake of expecting people to be rational and adopt whatever is objectively the best course of action instead of sticking to what they're accustomed to doing for generations.

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I said "offer." Maybe they'll say no. But maybe they'll say yes.

Maybe, having experienced the dangers of clan poverty, they'll jump on the opportunity to have a couple of suitable young members of the Clan learn to make seals and thereby make the Clan more financially stable.

Note that I'm not talking about teaching to research new seals or make exotic seals like skywalkers. Just basic always-in-demand commodity seals like explosive tags.

In any event, even if they say no, they'll still be left with an image of us as people that are trying to help them. The fact that that's a true image is a bonus!

As for Mari's feeling guilty about letting Kagome train Hazo, that's because he was just a cute little genin at the time. We can train Hagoromo chunin.

People do become sealmasters. Not lots and lots of people, but it is something that is on the table for the right ninja.

 

[Byzantine]

Well, the strings we're attaching are that they support our choices for the hat and ally themselves with us in exchange for the massive bribe. But that's considerably less bad than the strings that Hiashi has attached to them.

Something I'd like to know is how Hiashi might try to hurt them without having the loan or the hat to jerk them around with. That's the missing part of this puzzle. Where exactly is all the risk there coming from? How could Hiashi hurt another clan without doing something that's going to get him prosecuted?

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Ninja. He has them killed.

A question for the thread: We've been looking at things we can do during this week to swing votes, but I don't recall much discussion on what the Hyuuga are doing, beyond declarations they're going to try and kill us. Presumably they're aware that we and other clans are going to try and swing the vote against them, and try and convince more clans to improve their margin of error. Have we put any thought into what this might look like, and how to stop it? Even if Hiashi is sufficiently out of it in hospital he can't do much, he has an entire clan who want him as Hokage making their own moves.

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It's been talked about on the discord, but I don't believe us coming to any useful conclusions about what we can do about it. The rumors idea is the best thing we had for countering him, and it's only so-so.

 

[Raxner]

Ninja. He has them killed.

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They're also ninja, and can presumably defend themselves, and also I'm pretty sure that the Tower frowns on that kind of thing. Especially if the Hokage is not somebody named Hyuuga.

 

[Emstar]

Apparently the process would be very time-consuming. It's something we might want to look at later, but probably not during this critical week?

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This would be pretty damn dangerous for us to try to do with anything that isn't mostly trivial to do anyway. Even then its still not the best odds.

Our Calligraphy is shit, we heavily lean on the Iron Nerve for that stuff. I wouldn't waste FP on the rolls at the moment.

 

[Byzantine]

They're also ninja, and can presumably defend themselves, and also I'm pretty sure that the Tower frowns on that kind of thing. Especially if the Hokage is not somebody named Hyuuga.

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Hence why they are willing to take the risk at all. But there is still a chance there will be a shadow war to punish them for it.