- Location
- United States
Why wasn't naruto present for the clan meeting?
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Well if the QMs say picking a superior starting movement doesn't make a meaningful difference in time savings, and we can't ever change the movement and don't really learn anything from repeating the movement, why is this even an argument?
...Oh, I just got why EJ is so annoyed.
Awww poor Kei.
Let's help her be less sad.
Let's help her be less sad.
- Location
- Yes.
MARI: OK.
- Location
- America
I truly don't understand why this would not work.
This is not optimizing an Iron Nerve movement, it's learning a new one.
- Location
- Yes.
So @Noumero @MadScientist should this go in the plan? Not really sure about how it would work, just re-throwing it out there because I forgot last time.
There were some doubt about the idea in that formulation.
- Location
- United States
It sounds like they dislike Hyuga nearly as much as we do, but are under their yoke and can't get out. As in they just need to be free of direct economic control and then they'd already oppose Hyuga.
How much is necessary to do that?
Assuming the issue is that they can't actually afford their debt payments (and Hyuga keeps 'graciously' permitting them to skip a payment in exchange for the remainder of their payments being higher - which makes sense because R2 million was a suspiciously round number compared to our monthly payments) then they:
(a) need a lower overall debt so they can make the new lower payments; or
(b) need a longer repayment period so they can make the new lower payments; or
(c) need a lower interest rate so they can make the new lower payments
Taking over the entire loan is a version of (a), their new lower payments would be R0. Refinancing with us, or a clan loan group, could be (a), (b), or (c).
If Hyuga is truly being that abusive, why wouldn't the Hagoromo have gotten a new loan from literally anybody else. Even the Yakuza sound like they'd be less abusive than Hyuga if the economic control is so strong that the Hyuga have made the Hagoromo into an effective vassal clan.
The only reasons that come to mind are (1) that other clans don't want to oppose the Hyuga like that, (2) that the other clans don't trust the Hagoromo credit and would view any loans to them as a loss, (3) that pride is preventing the Hagoromo from asking for refinancing, or (4) that the premise of getting more debt to pay off a debt with worse terms is literally unheard of and never before considered in MfD.
Can anyone think of other reasons?
Plenty of clans are willing to oppose Hyuga, so I doubt it's (1). If it's (3), we're offering, and they're basically asking for a R360 million gift which would seem more likely to impact their pride. If it's (4) then we're golden, we just thought of it, let's now help essentially everyone with bad loan terms.
If it's (2) Hagoromo just has terrible credit and isn't trusted. Which sounds at least a little strange, but is certainly possible. In which case we don't really trust them to follow through on their side of the agreement, except that it seems to coincide with their own interests.
The main question (which HDK) is how much can they actually afford?
I would like to, yes.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
Their income might be so insufficient to pay off the debt that getting a new loan with something like longer repayment terms wouldn't help. That's the only other things I can think of. Perhaps their income plummeted for some reason, like losing a bunch of key ninja or an investment going belly up. Or maybe some current or prior leader of the clan took out huge loans without considering whether the clan had the income to realistically pay them off.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Check the rules doc (link on first page) for the sections "Hurrying / Being Careful" and "Verifying a Blank".
NB: There is no explicit mention in the section on drawing blanks as to whether you can move up or down the time ladder, which means by default you could move up to three levels in either direction. This is an oversight. The max will be either zero or one.
[EDIT: The reason Hazō has never done this is because you've never put it in a plan and it's both time-consuming and very dangerous.]
@faflec , has there been an explicit statement that the rules have changed or an exception made in this case? If not, then the above method is workable but very time consuming and extremely dangerous. If you pull it off, Hazō will be able to scribe one element of that particular seal in 1 minute from then on.
This is not wrong, but your thinking about the situation is. You seem to view this as "we are doing this super nice thing for them and they should jump at the chance and be super grateful and give us their vote for Hokage AND pay us back all the money."
You're missing the fact that they are taking a massive risk by accepting your deal. You are not the generous noble and they the worthless beggar. They are bringing more to the table than you are, since getting a positively-inclined Hokage will redound to your benefit for years or decades. Getting not-Hiashi might well save all your lives.
The Hagoromo are willing to take the deal. That is a mark of courage and an offer of alliance, not them accepting a favor.
Also, the deal currently being offered is that you give them money. It's not "take over the loan" or anything else that gives you power over them or affects what they do with the money. You can offer them a new deal -- a loan from you, multiple loans from multiple clans, etc -- but the negotiations will start from scratch.
See my response to @Inferno Vulpix below.
In @Radvic 's answer, substitute as follows:
Clan A: Hagoromo
Clan B: Hyūga
Clan C: Gōketsu
Everything he says is correct, modulo the points I made above.
This.
See discussion at top about time ladder. I'm not sure what the latest answer was, but it needs to be incorporated into the rules.
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TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
Thank you for helping me understand the psychology at work. Perhaps the Hyuuga have ways to hurt them even if we cover the debt and Hiashi doesn't become Hokage. If so that might help explain their sense of getting out from under the Hyuuga's control being a big risk. I was thinking that dealing with the debt and getting someone else elected would adequately protect them from significant reprisal, so it wasn't much of a risk.
Do they need a lump sum, or is taking over the monthly payments adequate?
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
To clarify, the danger is that even with exhaustive checking of the seal before infusion, the hasty scribing might have imperfections that aren't caught?
If so that makes sense. At the very least, the conversation in-thread is likely to move away from nagging you, to trying to figure out how we can more quickly scribe a perfect seal reasonably safely the one time.
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- Location
- Yes.
I don't recall so off the top of my head.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
So far as I'm aware, we've said nothing about what their loan payments are. You are supposed to pay them R2mm/month, but that might be more or less than their loan payment.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
Ahhh, I see. That's another subtlety I think we missed. Thanks.
So guys, I think we should probably talk to the Sarotobi and the others in the coalition about the Hugoromo's price for their vote. They should probably be involved, since they stand to benefit too. We can spread out the price, and maybe the others would have the ability to negotiate something better. Or be able to tell if the Hagoromo are demanding way more than the actual loan because they think they can get away with it.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The only way to be certain that a blank is correct is to infuse it. If it's not, you have a seal failure.
Verifying a blank takes on the order of an hour. At the end you are not told that the blank is correct, you are told that you did or did not find a problem. If you want to be confident in a blank that you explicitly chose to scribe sloppily (ie, with a malus equal to your Aspect Bonus), you need to check it multiple times. Since you don't know what the target number on the Calligraphy roll is, you have no way of knowing how likely you are to find a problem -- maybe you only got it originally because you had a bunch of Aspects going for you and got a lucky roll, but it's impossible to get the roll normally. In that case, you will never successfully verify the blank and you will definitely get a sealing failure when you infuse it.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
[X] Action Plan: 
Okay. I think we could at least try to spread the cost around a bit among the other clans that don't want Hiashi so we're not paying the whole thing ourselves. Even if it's just a token amount from some of them. The Sarutobi should really chip in since they're the ones getting the hat though. We could pitch it as 'This is the price they're demanding for their vote. We're willing to help with the cost.' Thoughts?
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- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
So the way it was originally presented to us, IIRC, was that the Hagoromo debts were 2,000,000 Ryo a month if we wanted to take over paying for them. The way I understand it now is that the Hagoromo are offering their support in exchange for us providing them 2,000,000 Ryo a month to help with their debts. This second framing makes me think that what's happening is that the 2,000,000/month influx gives the Hagoromo the financial freedom to, while not escape the debt, escape the state of being beholden to the Hyuuga to stay afloat (potentially they were having a hard time making their payments originally and had to rely on 'the generosity of the Hyuuga' to stay afloat, with the implicit threat that if the Hagoromo ever disobey the Hyuuga the generosity stops)
- Location
- Pacific standard
Woo a total of 3 people on board with my plan! Yes, this works. Mechanically we're attempting a calligraphy roll for a seal we know with a negative modifer to the roll, meaning we can really only do it with fairly easy seals.
This actually makes sense in a lot of ways in universe as well. Jiraiya could easily write seals in combat because his skills are/were/will be so heckin high that even with a huge malus he'll still succeed every time.
We only need to succeed once.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
Yes. Although I think there's at least some possibility that the 2,000,000r is more than the debt because they think they've got us over a barrel and see a chance to turn their problem into a profit. It'd be good if someone (maybe Keiko or Shikamaru) could figure out if that's the case so we're not cheated unnecessarily.
I don't particularly care if they're going to make a profit.