Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- United States
That vote is very important to us. Making sure that the Hyuga can't fuck over a ninja clan is a good thing for Leaf's strength.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
I guess if we need to there's wiggle room to offer them some sort of a discount on the debt if it's so big they're concerned that they just can't pay. We could afford to give them a quarter off or something. The whole amount is too much to ask for the pleasant outcome of not being entirely under Hiashi's thumb in a Hiashi regime, though.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
If we have to pay them a kajillion ryo to get them firmly at our backs, that's fine. Doesn't matter so long as we don't leave them openings to screw us over and Hiashi doesn't find himself with 100 mil right before the election.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
They shouldn't need a huge bribe to accept being liberated from under Hiashi's thumb. They should leap at the chance.
I'm thinking that maybe the debt is so huge they can't pay and that's what's motivating the demand for the whole thing off. That would explain how Hiashi is leveraging it to get them to do whatever he wants. If that's the case then we could negotiate some sort of discount.
Edit: Alternatively, we could negotiate non-monetary payment. There's a lot of things we could do with donated hours of ninja manpower to work on various projects with us, and they'd probably be willing to go for something along those lines if they can't come up with cash. Like the use of a technique hacker or what have you. Or we could trade information or something.
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- Location
- Actually pretty lost
While that makes sense, the following method seems obvious to me:
- Scribe a seal recklessly fast.
- Exhaustively and painstakingly check it over for any faults, even beyond what is usually done for a seal.
- If a fault is found (as it probably will be) go to step 1. Repeat until enough attempts have been made to find a hastily-scrawled seal with an acceptable (read: perfect) level of quality, and use that movement.
Or would a seal drawn recklessly fast still just not actually be that much faster, and you'd need some completely different method of seal creation to meaningfully improve upon it?
- Location
- United States
Or we simply refinance the loan for them and give them a better rate.
Assuming the QMs don't completely change the seal price math that's been proposed that shouldn't be an economical hardship for us.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
The money is to do the liberating bit. It comes out to 2 million ryo a month. This is inconsequential as long as they are on Team Gouketsu (or Greater Team Not Hiashi) afterwards.
What was your first clue?
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Why is there no "you fail reading comprehension" reaction in SV?
For fucks sake!
Playing a YouTube video fifty times does not make it play faster! It is the same fucking length every fucking time!
God, I am so sick of this. THE IRON NERVE REPLAYS AN ACTION PRECISELY AS IT HAPPENED THE FIRST TIME. If there were inefficiencies in the action the first time, they are there every time thereafter. You do not get to optimize an Iron Nerve action -- that's the entire point!
Please, everyone, try to get this through your collective heads.
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That isn't what I meant, though?
If Hazo is accurate, then he is fast. It's always five minute. For everyone else, they will mess up if they get too tired and so forth. Suddenly, that five minutes become ten minutes.
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TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
If we do have to just take over paying the whole loan for them without the Hagoromo owing us anything in return, that'll mean a lot of time (something like 25% to 50% of Kagome and Hazou's time, depending on how the seal math works out) spent making seals that we can't spend on other projects. Maybe some projects will be profitable enough that we'll be able to pay for it with them instead, but then that's money out the door that we could have had to invest in other things.The money is to do the liberating bit. It comes out to 2 million ryo a month. This is inconsequential as long as they are on Team Gouketsu (or Greater Team Not Hiashi) afterwards.
What was your first clue?
I think he wants us to let it rest. Presumably the time we're getting is just the best attempt Hazou's ever managed.
Perhaps I'm genuinely misunderstanding something? My understanding is that the loan has put them under Hiashi's thumb, a situation he's abusing for all it's worth. They very much don't want to be there. Therefore, my thinking goes, they should leap at the chance to owe the same debt to someone else who won't abuse them with it. Such a thing would be a huge improvement in their situation because without the loan held over them Hiashi can't crush them/force them to do things they don't want to do.
Perhaps they can't actually pay the whole loan? That would explain not jumping at the offer of a refinance, and explain how Hiashi is leveraging them, by saying he'll let them skip payments as long as they do what he wants. If that's the case we could perhaps negotiate something, like a discount so the amount is workable for them with some amount of non-monetary repayment they can live with.
Is any of this deeply mistaken?
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I never suggested anything like that.
Refinancing them is giving the Hyuga liquid cash.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Only if you take the position that other sealmasters regularly make mistakes and scrap their faulty seals, reducing their total input. That might not be the case, if it's not strenuous when you have it down. In which case, Hazou's advantage would be the ability to do it for long periods of time without the quality deteriorating just because even easy actions can get screwed up if you do enough of them.
Why would they trust us not to screw them over like the Hyuuga have? They'd be trading one master for another, which only makes sense if they trust us - and for all that the Hyuuga are dicks, we're the ex-Mist-ex-Missing-Nin.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
@TaliesinSkye The problem is we are not getting ownership of the loan. At all. It is not happening.
@eaglejarl From my understanding Hazo's scribing speed is the same as everyone else's, but his actual seal-creation time is lower because his seals do not need to be checked for accuracy, while Kagome's do.
@eaglejarl From my understanding Hazo's scribing speed is the same as everyone else's, but his actual seal-creation time is lower because his seals do not need to be checked for accuracy, while Kagome's do.
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- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I should note that even if I've somehow walked into what is apparently a long-standing argument and come up with a solution without reading the rest of it - which seems unlikely, and I've probably just missed something here - it's entirely possible that this just hasn't occurred to Hazou, or he hasn't deemed the long-term time savings worth the short term time investment just yet, because we've been busy.
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
Let me make sure I understand: your claim is that clan A should jump at the chance to offend clan B (probably the strongest clan) with zero financial improvement for minimal gain to clan A, all because they will now have the same financial burden towards clan C, a new clan which may or may not exist in 2 years. Presumably, in this case either 1) clan A still has the same heavy financial burden, leading to reliance on wealthy clans (like clan B) but while technically paying clan C, or 2) Clan C goes extinct, in which case Clan A likely has the same financial burden towards clan B, putting them right back where they were. Regardless, Clan B will be angered by Clan A's decision to go against clan B, and as clan B is the biggest clan in town, this will have repercussions for clan A. I fail to see why Clan A would possibly want to take this deal, unless it involves actually paying off Clan A's debt.
I am confused.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Do we know that Hazou doesn't need to check his seals at all? There might be faults that can develop even with a perfectly accurate brush technique - a fault in the paper, or the chakra ink flowed a bit oddly, or something - that can be trivially caught by checking, but still take the time. Whereas faults in the scribing process take just as much time to check, but can slip past an insufficiently diligent sealmaster.
EDIT: Sorry @eaglejarl, screwed up a quote.
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
You and your entire family are being jerked around constantly because you owe an enormous sum of money to arguably the Worst Asshat in your entire country.
One of his upstart competitors comes along and offers to effectively absolve you of this debt. In return, you join Team Fuck That Guy, a team you are all too eager to hop onto.
On a scale of 1-10, how indebted do you feel towards this man?
On a scale of 1-10 , how grateful to him do you feel?
On a scale of 1-10, how likely is it that you would cooperate with this individual on a mutually beneficial project if given the chance in the future?
We are effectively bailing these folks out. Do you think they will not feel tremendously grateful towards us for this? Who gives a damn if they don't owe us any money, loyalty and trust is worth that twice over.
Assuming this isn't a massive trap, of course.
TaliesinSkye
Occasional Editor
- Location
- Northeast Ohio, United States
It's about changing the debt from someone who will abuse it to control you, something you deeply resent, to someone who won't.
That said, if they can't actually pay the debt as it stands there's room to negotiate.
*sigh* I guess we can probably afford to pay the whole thing if we really have to. I'd prefer not to blow a substantial portion of our time for a long while on it, though. We should at least try to get some sort of non-monetary repayment of the massive amount out of them for it beyond the vote. I'd be nice to have access to trainers and people with skills we can use like technique hackers.
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- Location
- The state of Paranoia
It takes at least half an hour to check a single seal, right? I don't think that sealmasters check their seals at all past research and the first couple seals after that. If non-Kurosawa sealmasters checked their seals every time, seals would be much more expensive than they are. So I don't think Hazō's sealing is any faster, just less likely to sprout tentacles upon infusion, which we knew already.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Sealmasters don't check their seals for accuracy in regular practice. This is because while it takes 5 minutes to properly draw a seal, it takes on the order of an hour to properly check it for any flaws. A sealmaster gets confident in their ability to scribe the seal correctly each time and then churns them out without exhaustive examination.
Also, re: your earlier topic of Hazou trying to scribe seals faster to gain new IN movements that save time, it's come up many times before with varying non-committal QM opinions. For a while they were leaning towards something matching the time ladder system in FtD rules, but I think the most recent opinion was that it shouldn't be possible at all.