Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Roomba · Feb 15, 2019

Is asking Keiko for permission to talk about her with Ami any kind of problem? It seems like a rare and fortuitous near-perfect alignment between our motivation and Hazou's. The necessary condition for us to go through with the marriage is that Ami reconcile with Keiko at least to some extent. Otherwise, it's a no-go. This is also a perfectly reasonable sentiment for Hazou to express, and reflects well on him, not that it's likely for Keiko to see it that way: "I'm not going to marry her if she keeps treating you like this, political benefits be damned."

Incidentally, the hidden motivations are aligned as well: Hazou, I imagine, wants to know how Ami really feels about Keiko, as he's probably repulsed by the idea of marrying someone who betrays their family the way Ami ostensibly did; meanwhile, we know what Ami did and why, and want to give her a way out to reunite her with Keiko. The actions accomplishing both of these are very similar, I think.

Inferno Vulpix · Feb 15, 2019

Let's see, conceptual tech tree for radio seals:
Hazou: "I want to make a <semaphore> seal that makes a bright light another seal can receive."
Hazou: "What kind of light would work best? I wonder what I can get if I tinker with the colour."
Hazou: "Oh whoops it stopped working... or, hold on, the receiver's still picking up signals."
Hazou: "So this invisible light goes through walls, and goes a lot farther than normal light. This is tailor-made for my project."

The biggest leap is getting infrared light when we tinker with the colour, but I feel like we could have him extensively tinker with the colour without much fuss, so maybe?

Kiba · Feb 15, 2019

Inferno Vulpix said:
Let's see, conceptual tech tree for radio seals:
Hazou: "I want to make a <semaphore> seal that makes a bright light another seal can receive."
Hazou: "What kind of light would work best? I wonder what I can get if I tinker with the colour."
Hazou: "Oh whoops it stopped working... or, hold on, the receiver's still picking up signals."
Hazou: "So this invisible light goes through walls, and goes a lot farther than normal light. This is tailor-made for my project."

The biggest leap is getting infrared light when we tinker with the colour, but I feel like we could have him extensively tinker with the colour without much fuss, so maybe?

Careful. Don't want to wander into the x ray spectrum.

faflec · Feb 15, 2019

Is light emitted by a seal considered to be a chakra construct for the purposes of the chakra diffusion problem?

Cariyaga · Feb 15, 2019

faflec said:
Is light emitted by a seal considered to be a chakra construct for the purposes of the chakra diffusion problem?

If it's chakra-light, sure.

Inferno Vulpix · Feb 15, 2019

faflec said:
Is light emitted by a seal considered to be a chakra construct for the purposes of the chakra diffusion problem?

Even chakra constructs can go a long distance, you just can't create them at range. (and, you know, they go away after a while but with light that makes less sense than with rocks) As long as we aren't dealing with light-minutes of distance I think we should be fine even if it is chakra-light.

Tua · Feb 15, 2019

Velorien said:
And yet when Keiko suggests the same thing in reverse...

We should keep The Keiko alive and seek out All The Drama?

How exactly is that different from what we have been doing for years now?

Inferno Vulpix · Feb 15, 2019

Velorien said:
I would love for you to find out the worldbuilding we've done for these things, but I don't know how Hazō would find it out.

On a completely unrelated note, didn't you once leave an open rift to the blade horror dimension somewhere in Iron?

If memory serves, we put a MEW wall in front of the portal and said that these things usually close themselves over time and left.

...

[χ] Make a Summoning Contract with the Rift Denizens.

jy3 · Feb 15, 2019

Inferno Vulpix said:
Let's see, conceptual tech tree for radio seals:
Hazou: "I want to make a <semaphore> seal that makes a bright light another seal can receive."
Hazou: "What kind of light would work best? I wonder what I can get if I tinker with the colour."
Hazou: "Oh whoops it stopped working... or, hold on, the receiver's still picking up signals."
Hazou: "So this invisible light goes through walls, and goes a lot farther than normal light. This is tailor-made for my project."

The biggest leap is getting infrared light when we tinker with the colour, but I feel like we could have him extensively tinker with the colour without much fuss, so maybe?

Kagome: "AAAA! I probably should have told you this earlier, but Do Not Experiment With Colors. There's places where the colors of the Out bled through, and the results are never pretty. Unless you can prove that the color you're trying for maps to a positive number, don't do it."

Noumero · Feb 15, 2019

As is known, I'm collaborating with @Roomba on planmaking for the ~~dates~~ meetings with Ami (all no doubt part of our eldritch conspiracy with Velorien). Here's the current version of our plan:

[too soon] Ami Plan: The Ascended Meme
Wordcount: 470.

Goals:
- Determine how serious Ami is about the marriage.
- Determine whether she is capable of treating you as a proper ally.
To consider:
- Ami's marriage ploy was strangely aggressive, perhaps desperate. Combined with her previous fatalistic comments, could she be signalling that she is in trouble and needs assistance? You really don't want Keiko to deal with her death.
Guidelines:
- Precommitments (overriding priority):
  - Don't talk about OPSEC-sensitive topics. Don't bring up topics of uncertain confidentiality.
  - Avoid commitments aside from those Jiraiya explicitly allowed you to make (if any).
- Maintain mental balance.
- Assume that all displays of emotions are deliberate — whether they're genuine or not. Watch out for mood whiplashes.
- Don't be intimidated by threats: they're bluffs (probably).
Demeanour: calm but serious. Clothes: clan colours.
Check everything below with Jiraiya.

Meet in the pre-established location, then move to the waters for privacy. Split up to get there, if necessary.
- Employ Silence Mines (if approved).
- Have a backup ANBU discreetly watch you from the shore. Inform Ami of this.
Start by establishing a scheme to confirm integrity of letters
- (Example: "nth letter of every sentence follows a pattern".)
- Wondering if Letter #1 was from a third party was a headache. Never again.
Serious discussion:
- Guidelines:
  - Don't let Ami sidetrack you, or continue obfuscating. Be direct.
  - If she is still playing games: calmly say that you'll be waiting for her reply, leave.
- Topics:
  - Does Ami want to join forces with you?
    - For political as well as personal reasons, you're willing to use your status as the clan heir to support her, marriage included if necessary. However, you'd need a clear statement of intent, with no further mindgames.
      - Some of her actions suggest she is in danger. Does she need help?
    - If she lies about this, you precommit to treat her as hostile in the future. Inform her of that.
  - If Ami stated she'd like to work together, bring up Keiko:
    - Whatever Ami did when they met, it left Keiko convinced she hates her. With Ami's level of control, you doubt it's unintentional. Is it true?
    - Letter #1 hurt her. You're partially to blame, for not informing Keiko of the interaction in advance, but Ami is responsible too. Is she is going to treat her with disregard? If so, you're not sure you could be close allies.

If everything goes well:
- Move back to the shore. Have a picnic, make small-talk. Act more relaxed and friendly.
  - Do not forget the precommitments.
  - (Is it cold outside? Plagiarize ISC: bring chairs, a table, warm blankets, an iron barrel filled with fuel, socks filled with heated sand. (And food.))
- Important (relatively): Ask whether she played board games. If no, is she interested?
  - Mind the innuendos.
- Make a cryptic remark about chronology breaking down around her. Don't elaborate.
- Hand her a post-interaction survey.

Look, @Cariyaga, it even lays the groundwork for the Ami Date 3: (Ren x Jiraiya) vs. (Hazou x Ami) Games Night!

@Inferno Vulpix, @MMKII, consider the following changes to your plans:

Put a link to this plan, to get Jiraiya to look it over.
Add a section about asking Keiko's permission to discuss her with Ami/informing Keiko that we'll be discussing her with Ami if certain conditions are met.

Inferno Vulpix · Feb 15, 2019

Noumero said:
Use Silence Mines for better privacy (if approved).

Would this not make it harder for us to communicate? It seems like needless minor OPSEC breach if we're already on the waters.

Noumero said:
Start by establishing a scheme to confirm integrity of letters

(Example: "nth letter of every sentence follows a pattern".)

Wondering if Letter #1 was from a third party was a headache. Never again.

While I'm not inherently opposed to this, it seems like something we should put at the end. It's not so high-priority that we can't afford to risk the meeting ending before we get to it.

Noumero said:
Insist on a clear declaration: "Yes, I need help."

I'd rather not this be phrased as a 'say it' dominance show. We just need to insist that she not obfuscate.

More generally, I think this plan might be focusing a bit hard on the 'Ami is in trouble' focus. It says our assistance still stands if Ami isn't in trouble, but I feel like there's enough probability weight on Ami simply wanting to advance her goals by marrying into the Goketsu, or something like that, that it shouldn't be an afterthought in the plan.

Noumero said:
@Inferno Vulpix, @MMKII, consider the following changes to your plans:

Putting a link to this plan, to get Jiraiya to look it over.

Add a section about asking Keiko's permission to discuss her with Ami/informing Keiko that we'll be discussing her with Ami if certain conditions are met.

@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail, to confirm, would a link to this be held against us wordcount-wise? You've given permission for things like research plans and stuff, but this is a bit different so I'd like to make sure.

If we can use this without killing our wordcount, @Noumero, I should be able to cut a few lines and free up some wordcount, which would make adding a Keiko line easy. If not, I'll figure something out, but I'd rather wait until a ruling.

Vecht · Feb 15, 2019

MMKII said:
We had lunch with her sister without telling her about it. It's not like we trapped her into a marriage contract in front of thousands of people. I'm hard pressed to acknowledge this as anything more than a moderately dickish move.

Even what Shikamaru did was hardly dickish. Keiko is already going to be married off to the Nara (something she consented to over adoption, by the by). He simply moved to secure their marriage before she could be pawned away to a random cousin for political reasons. Keiko needs to get a fucking grip.

Inferno Vulpix · Feb 15, 2019

Noumero said:
Split up to get there, if necessary.

Oh, also, part of the stroll on the bay strategy is that it's meant to look like just-slightly-odd date activity, which with Ami involved means it's perfectly normal. The sight lines are clear so we don't need to worry about someone tailing us and listening in, and so stealthily moving onto the bay just makes it look less like an odd date activity and more like a secret meeting.

And as mentioned (can't remember who), it's gonna be cold so it'd be nice to bring coats and stuff in case Ami wants one.

Lailoken · Feb 15, 2019

Am I the only one who sees a problem with the heir-apparent who is supposed to be under constant jounin guard due to acute danger of kidnapping sneaking away from all security for a secret, unobservable rendezvous in a location perfect for unattributable megalodon attacks followed by immediate shipping out of the country on any of countless boats?

Send her the day of the meeting, but not the time or location. The Mori must have a concept of Schelling points. She wants to play games about modeling each other? Let's see how good she really is.

Long-distance comms are easy. Kidnap a few Kozu and stitch their brains together before chopping up their bodies into itty bitty pieces to serve as the transducers in the handhelds and conditioning the brainpile to act as a network relay.

firestorm440 · Feb 15, 2019

Kiba said:
Careful. Don't want to wander into the x ray spectrum.

Nah that's fine, it'll just give us another superweapon. We don't have enough of those things.

Inferno Vulpix · Feb 15, 2019

Lailoken said:
Long-distance comms are easy. Kidnap a few Kozu and stitch their brains together before chopping up their bodies into itty bitty pieces to serve as the transducers in the units and conditioning the brainpile to act as a network relay.

Even assuming they wouldn't just die (they can detach ears, not survive molecularization), the chakra diffusion problem might get in the way. We'd need to find out if there's a recorded longest range for Kozu body parts from the main body.

And if that works, you could have one Kozu live in Leaf with their ear in Mist, and vice versa, and pay the Kozu enough that they don't object.

Noumero · Feb 15, 2019

Inferno Vulpix said:
Would this not make it harder for us to communicate? It seems like needless minor OPSEC breach if we're already on the waters.

It's something we did the first time, when Noburi proposed it. A minor OPSEC breach for a minor improvement in privacy?

While I'm not inherently opposed to this, it seems like something we should put at the end. It's not so high-priority that we can't afford to risk the meeting ending before we get to it.

Oh no. The last time I decided to put it at the end, it never got done because Ami is too fast, and then the letter happened. It's a work of two minutes at most (probably closer to thirty seconds), and avoids a potential disaster. Something something black chakra swans.

Oh, also, part of the stroll on the bay strategy is that it's meant to look like just-slightly-odd date activity, which with Ami involved means it's perfectly normal. The sight lines are clear so we don't need to worry about someone tailing us and listening in, and so stealthily moving onto the bay just makes it look less like an odd date activity and more like a secret meeting.

Velorien stated that the bay is outside the village bounds. Either or both of us may not want to be seen exiting the village with a foreigner.

And as mentioned (can't remember who), it's gonna be cold so it'd be nice to bring coats and stuff in case Ami wants one.

Valid point; will implement.

More generally, I think this plan might be focusing a bit hard on the 'Ami is in trouble' focus

I agree, actually. @Roomba thinks it's a good way to open/frame the interaction — even if it's wrong, it'll efficiently signal how serious, non-ambiguous, and explicit we want to be.

What about this? @Roomba?:

Does Ami want to join forces with you?

For political as well as personal reasons, you're willing to use your status as the clan heir to support her, marriage included if necessary. However, you'd need a clear statement of intent, with no further mindgames.

Some of her actions suggest she is in danger. Does she need help?

If she lies about this, you precommit to treat her as hostile in the future. Inform her of that.

Lailoken said:
Am I the only one who sees a problem with the heir-apparent who is supposed to be under constant jounin guard due to acute danger of kidnapping sneaking away from all security for a secret, unobservable rendezvous in a location perfect for unattributable megaladon attacks followed by immediate shipping out of the country on any of countless boats?

We are having an ANBU watch us from the shore.

Send her the day of the meeting, but not the time or location. The Mori must have a concept of Schelling points. She wants to play games about modeling each other? Let's see how good she really is.

We're not planning to send her the real location either: we're meeting near a random restaurant first, then moving to the bay, with no paper trail.

Not telling the time seems excessive: if someone could follow us from the "official" meeting place to the real one, this someone could presumably just pay someone to watch our movements all day long.

Inferno Vulpix · Feb 15, 2019

Noumero said:
Velorien stated that the bay is outside the village bounds. Either or both of us may not want to be seen exiting the village with a foreigner.

Ah, that's what you meant by that. I thought we were meeting up on the beach and then splitting up as we go onto the water.

Noumero said:
Oh no. The last time I decided to put it at the end, it never got done because Ami is too fast, and then the letter happened. It's a work of two minutes at most (probably closer to thirty seconds), and avoids a potential disaster. Something something black chakra swans.

Fair enough. I don't really feel like an Ami-impersonator is likely, but it doesn't hurt, per se.

Noumero said:
It's something we did the first time, when Noburi proposed it. A minor OPSEC breach for a minor improvement in privacy?

Eh, it still feels like a needless OPSEC breach, since even without I can't think of a way we could be overheard without knowing, but if you insist.

Noumero · Feb 15, 2019

Inferno Vulpix said:
And as mentioned (can't remember who), it's gonna be cold so it'd be nice to bring coats and stuff in case Ami wants one.

Noumero said:
(Is it cold outside? Plagiarize ISC: bring chairs, a table, warm blankets, an iron barrel filled with fuel, socks filled with heated sand. (And food.))

Enjoy.

Eh, it still feels like a needless OPSEC breach, since even without I can't think of a way we could be overheard without knowing, but if you insist.

The plan does state we ask Jiraiya's permission first. Also, this minor OPSEC breach may signal that we're acting in good faith and are interested in working with her long-term.

firestorm440 said:
Nah that's fine, it'll just give us another superweapon. We don't have enough of those things.

We don't, actually. For all that we joke about it, and for all our designs, we don't really have a lot of working WMDs. Stacked Implosion Seals, Skywalker-assisted bombardment, Elemental Mastery (no immediate access), and...?

eaglejarl · Feb 15, 2019

Inferno Vulpix said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail, to confirm, would a link to this be held against us wordcount-wise? You've given permission for things like research plans and stuff, but this is a bit different so I'd like to make sure.

@Velorien can make his own decision but yes, I would count it against your wordcount. When you've got two entire discrete pieces, like a research plan and an action plan, it's fine to split them up. This is not that, though.

Inferno Vulpix · Feb 15, 2019

Alright, then all we should be getting from Jiraiya this plan is whether we should at all, and the general time and place. That is, enough for the letter to Ami. Then when we do the Ami date plan, we can clear the rest of it with Jiraiya before going.

Noumero said:
Add a section about asking Keiko's permission to discuss her with Ami/informing Keiko that we'll be discussing her with Ami if certain conditions are met.

I'll see about squeezing some extra room out of my plan for this, then.

e: I got rid of the line where we asked how much time we had left in Mist because that isn't that important right now.

Inferno Vulpix said:
Reposting the plan once again, if anyone has anything to say about it let me know.

Word Count: 298
[X] Action Plan: Reasonable Handling of New Information.

Show the letter to Jiraiya. Help him find a clean shirt. In the process, quickly confirm conclusions:

Letter #1 was deliberately leaked through a compromised courier. Implication: Courier #2 wasn't compromised.

Letter #2 leaves us an opportunity to go along with the marriage (if it wasn't leaked), and signals that Ami'll drop it if we won't

Letter #1 was pretty aggressive: likely signals that she strongly prefers the former option. Testing Courier #1 was secondary.

If we run out of time, cover these later.

Tell Keiko and Noburi about the second letter. Pre-empt their concerns, this one's good news.

Let them voice their opinions.

Carefully ask Keiko's thoughts on the potential second meeting.

Ask permission to potentially talk about her with Ami.

Finally get Noburi's full opinion on the situation.

Do something calming and rote to relax a little, like making explosives.

Help Keiko plan for her upcoming fight.

Once Jiraiya returns, discuss the situation (include Noburi and Keiko; high-OPSEC conditions):

Second meeting with Ami. Should it happen? If so:

Should we seek a honest answer regarding whether she's in danger/wants a political marriage?

Would require better OPSEC. A walk across the bay, then a picnic?

We're a bit shaken from recent events. Any advice?

If Jiraiya approves, send a letter. Contents:

Decline the favour.

Set up the second meeting.

Place: "near" a random restaurant.

Time: tomorrow? (Jiraiya's call.)

If Jiraiya allows us outside:

Watch today's matches.

Verify Ami's story.

Persuade Chouji to do the following restaurant sleuthing. Meals on us.

Check this with Jiraiya beforehand.

Visit a few restaurants. Inquire about their history, then ask about:

Connection between Byakuren's Cookbook and Experimental Cuisine.

Byakuren's Cookbook serving large groups of ninja.

Byakuren's Cookbook: name-drop Ami for regulars-only menu.

If anyone talks about Hazou and Ami: no comment.

Noumero · Feb 15, 2019

Inferno Vulpix said:
[X] Action Plan: Reasonable Handling of New Information.

I suggest changing the last section this way:

Clear this section with Jiraiya:
- Watch today's matches.
- Verify Ami's story (if time permits).
  - Byakuren's Cookbook: name-drop Ami for regulars-only menu.
  - Persuade Chouji to visit a few restaurants, inquire about their history. (We're paying.) Points of interest:
    - Connection between Byakuren's Cookbook and Experimental Cuisine.
    - Byakuren's Cookbook serving large groups of ninja.
- If anyone talks about Hazou and Ami: no comment.

This should bring the wordcount down to 291 words, thereby letting you put the Mist stay length question back in. Additionally, that way we don't accidentally leak to Chouji that we're interacting with Ami (by maybe sending him into Byakuren's Cookbook with a mission to namedrop her).

Inferno Vulpix · Feb 15, 2019

Noumero said:
I suggest changing the last section this way:

Clear this section with Jiraiya:

Watch today's matches.

Verify Ami's story (if time permits).

Byakuren's Cookbook: name-drop Ami for regulars-only menu.

Persuade Chouji to visit a few restaurants, inquire about their history. (We're paying.) Points of interest:

Connection between Byakuren's Cookbook and Experimental Cuisine.

Byakuren's Cookbook serving large groups of ninja.

If anyone talks about Hazou and Ami: no comment.

This should bring the wordcount down to 291 words, thereby letting you put the Mist stay length question back in. Additionally, that way we don't accidentally leak to Chouji that we're interacting with Ami (by maybe sending him into Byakuren's Cookbook with a mission to namedrop her).

Reasonable, and implemented:

Inferno Vulpix said:
Reposting the plan once again, if anyone has anything to say about it let me know.

Word Count: 296
[X] Action Plan: Reasonable Handling of New Information.

Show the letter to Jiraiya. Help him find a clean shirt. In the process, quickly confirm conclusions:

Letter #1 was deliberately leaked through a compromised courier. Implication: Courier #2 wasn't compromised.

Letter #2 leaves us an opportunity to go along with the marriage (if it wasn't leaked), and signals that Ami'll drop it if we won't

Letter #1 was pretty aggressive: likely signals that she strongly prefers the former option. Testing Courier #1 was secondary.

If we run out of time, cover these later.

Tell Keiko and Noburi about the second letter. Pre-empt their concerns, this one's good news.

Let them voice their opinions.

Carefully ask Keiko's thoughts on the potential second meeting.

Ask permission to potentially talk about her with Ami.

Finally get Noburi's full opinion on the situation.

Do something calming and rote to relax a little, like making explosives.

Help Keiko plan for her upcoming fight.

Once Jiraiya returns, discuss the situation (include Noburi and Keiko; high-OPSEC conditions):

How long before we leave Mist?

Second meeting with Ami. Should it happen? If so:

Should we seek a honest answer regarding whether she's in danger/wants a political marriage?

Would require better OPSEC. A walk across the bay, then a picnic?

We're a bit shaken from recent events. Any advice?

If Jiraiya approves, send a letter. Contents:

Decline the favour.

Set up the second meeting.

Place: "near" a random restaurant.

Time: tomorrow? (Jiraiya's call.)

Clear this section with Jiraiya:

Watch today's matches.

Verify Ami's story (if time permits).

Byakuren's Cookbook: name-drop Ami for regulars-only menu.

Persuade Chouji to visit a few restaurants, inquire about their history. (We're paying.) Points of interest:

Connection between Byakuren's Cookbook and Experimental Cuisine.

Byakuren's Cookbook serving large groups of ninja.

If anyone talks about Hazou and Ami: no comment.

Kiba · Feb 15, 2019

What's the winning plan?

[X] Action Plan: Reasonable Handling of New Information.

Cariyaga · Feb 15, 2019

If we intend to talk about Keiko during the next meeting (as it seems we do), then I'm going to have to request we ask her this time.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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