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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Vecht said:
We could even plausibly cite its necessity for psychological warfare.
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Most recent update: QMs hinting at us increasing our value to Jiraiya is a good way to not get Minami'd in the future.

Immediate player reaction: We call your bluff and we are going to wear youthsuits while we are traveling among the Leaf's elite to embarrass Jiraiya. Also, we are going to try and trip Hiashi with the plausible explanation that we are "training to bypass the Byakugan, just in case". *winking in civil war*
 
MadScientist said:
Alright.

Wordcount: I don't even know anymore

[x] Action Plan: The Power of Love to Go Even Further Beyond
  • While practicing KI with Kei, attempt to project outwards Hazou's own soul. Not a will to destroy, but to protect. Even under the terrifying pressure of Kei's KI, Hazou projects a warmth of (sibling!) love that will melt the ice mirrors and deliver to Kei the spiritual and absolutely-not-physical hug she so clearly needs. If Hazou is mentally sundered by the mirrors so be it, Kei's Killing Intent will not push away his support.
  • Try to grab an hour or so of Jiraiya's time, alone.
    • Mindset: This is going to be the most brutal thing you have ever experienced. Prepare mentally.
    • Ask him about the killing intent thing.
      • What's the deal there?
    • Help us practice resisting it, pretty please?
      • Its a critical vulnerability if some Jonin can just floor us by glaring at us, and then slit our throats.
    • Ask Jiraiya to floor you with a bit of his killing intent.
      • You are the scariest and strongest guy around, sir.
      • Please don't accidentally kill us or break our minds or something, though.
    • Now. Get. Up.
      • You are Hazou Gouketsu ,son of Hana and Shinji.
      • Just one man.
      • Jiraiya is also just one man.
      • If you can't face him in a clash of wills, how will you stand against the world itself?
      • Remember the countless thousands of innocent people barely surviving in this hellhole.
      • Fight like theirlives depend on it. Because theyare depending on you!
      • Giving up simply isn't an option. It never will be, as long as they're on the line.
      • By all the kami in heaven, you will Uplift this world.
      • Embrace the fiery passion of your ideals, forge your iron nerves to steel, and cast your defiance into the teeth of gods and men alike!
      • Stand. Raise your head high and look Jiraiya in the eye.
    • Repeat a few times.
      • Try to at least raise your head and look Jiraiya in the eye.
      • But don't hurt yourself.
  • Ask Jiraiya for intel on our competitors.
  • Make seals.
  • Proceed to the tournament.
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293 words with the edits, down from 332.

  • Practicing KI with Kei: Project outwards Hazou's own soul. Not a will to destroy, but to protect. Even under the terrifying pressure of Kei's KI, Hazou projects a warmth of (sibling!) love that will melt the ice and deliver her the spiritual and absolutely-not-physical hug she so clearly needs. If he's mentally sundered by the ice mirrors so be it, Kei's KI will not push away his support.
  • Grab an hour-ish of Jiraiya's time, alone, if possible.
    • Mindset: Mentally prepare for the most brutal thing you have ever experienced.
    • Ask him about Killing Intent.
      • What's the deal there?
    • Help us practice resisting it, please?
      • It's a critical vulnerability if some Jonin can incapacitate and kill us.
    • Ask Jiraiya to floor you with a bit of his KI as he is the scariest/strongest around.
      • Please don't accidentally kill us or break our minds though.
    • Now. Get. Up.
      • You are Hazou Gouketsu, son of Hana and Shinji.
      • Just one man.
      • Jiraiya is also just one man.
      • If you can't stand against Jiraiya's will, how will you stand against the world itself?
      • Motivation: the countless thousands of innocent people barely surviving in this hellhole, their lives depend on it - on you.
      • Giving up isn't an option, never will be, as long as they're on the line.
      • By all the kami in heaven, you will Uplift this world.
      • Embrace the fiery passion of your ideals, forge your iron nerves to steel, and cast your defiance into the teeth of gods and men alike!
      • Stand. Raise your head high and look Jiraiya in the eye.
    • Repeat a few times.
      • Try to at least raise your head and look Jiraiya in the eye without hurting yourself.
  • Ask Jiraiya for intel on our competitors.
  • Make seals.
  • Proceed to tournament.




Mostly cut filler words and lots of "attempt/try" where possible since that is implied.

I do question the sense/practicality of making seals on-the-go with all of the clan heads around. We shouldn't give them any info about the Iron Nerve's capability of boosting seal making at all so I would urge whoever voted for this to drop this part.

"Proceed to tournament" is also something I was close to cutting because it seems like the obvious thing to do but it's not my plan. :p

Also I am pretty sure that asking Jiraiya for intel was in previous plan(s) so we should have already gotten some OOC/off-screen info earlier, possibly at the time we retcon the training in?
 
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Updated

MadScientist said:
Alright.

Wordcount: 293

[x] Action Plan: The Power of Love to Go Even Further Beyond

    • Practicing KI with Kei: Project outwards Hazou's own soul. Not a will to destroy, but to protect. Even under the terrifying pressure of Kei's KI, Hazou projects a warmth of (sibling!) love that will melt the ice and deliver her the spiritual and absolutely-not-physical hug she so clearly needs. If he's mentally sundered by the ice mirrors so be it, Kei's KI will not push away his support.
    • Grab an hour-ish of Jiraiya's time, alone, if possible.
      • Mindset: Mentally prepare for the most brutal thing you have ever experienced.
      • Ask him about Killing Intent.
        • What's the deal there?
      • Help us practice resisting it, please?
        • It's a critical vulnerability if some Jonin can incapacitate and kill us.
      • Ask Jiraiya to floor you with a bit of his KI as he is the scariest/strongest around.
        • Please don't accidentally kill us or break our minds though.
      • Now. Get. Up.
        • You are Hazou Gouketsu, son of Hana and Shinji.
        • Just one man.
        • Jiraiya is also just one man.
        • If you can't stand against Jiraiya's will, how will you stand against the world itself?
        • Motivation: the countless thousands of innocent people barely surviving in this hellhole, their lives depend on it - on you.
        • Giving up isn't an option, never will be, as long as they're on the line.
        • By all the kami in heaven, you will Uplift this world.
        • Embrace the fiery passion of your ideals, forge your iron nerves to steel, and cast your defiance into the teeth of gods and men alike!
        • Stand. Raise your head high and look Jiraiya in the eye.
      • Repeat a few times.
        • Try to at least raise your head and look Jiraiya in the eye without hurting yourself.
    • Ask Jiraiya for intel on our competitors.
    • Make seals.
    • Proceed to tournament.
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MMKII said:
If Keiko, despite literally being unable to process human social interaction as easily as another human being can, is able to argue Hana (the diplomat with bullshit clan social training and good socials) into a corner, then Mr. "Pretty Damn Far." can defy someones bullshit will-projection a little bit. Especially if Akane can do the same just because she says the words "Youth" under her breath and believes hard enough.
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I guess this is true insofar you can imply anything from falsity.

I thought it was consensus that Keiko did not outmaneouver Hana or argue her into a corner, she just managed to find one thing that they both care about (but not actually convince Hana to want to help, c.f. what happened next?)
 
Current version:

MadScientist said:
Alright.

Wordcount: 295

[x] Action Plan: The Power of Love to Go Even Further Beyond

    • Practicing KI with Kei: Project outwards Hazou's own soul. Not a will to destroy, but to protect. Even under the terrifying pressure of Kei's KI, Hazou projects a warmth of (sibling!) love that will melt the ice and deliver her the spiritual and absolutely-not-physical hug she so clearly needs. If he's mentally sundered by the ice mirrors so be it, Kei's KI will not push away his support.
    • Grab an hour-ish of Jiraiya's time, alone, if possible.
      • Mindset: Mentally prepare for the most brutal thing you have ever experienced.
      • Ask him about Killing Intent.
        • What's the deal there?
      • Help us practice resisting it, please?
        • It's a critical vulnerability if some Jonin can incapacitate and kill us.
      • Ask Jiraiya to floor you with a bit of his KI as he is the scariest/strongest around.
        • Please don't accidentally kill us or break our minds though.
      • Now. Get. Up.
        • Mood: You Say Run.
        • You are Hazou Gouketsu, son of Hana and Shinji.
        • Just one man.
        • Jiraiya is also just one man.
        • If you can't stand against Jiraiya's will, how will you stand against the world itself?
        • Motivation: the countless thousands of innocent people barely surviving in this hellhole, their lives depend on it - on you.
        • Giving up isn't an option, never will be, as long as they're on the line.
        • By all the kami in heaven, you will Uplift this world.
        • Embrace the fiery passion of your ideals, forge your iron nerves to steel, and cast your defiance into the teeth of gods and men alike!
        • Stand. Raise your head high and look Jiraiya in the eye.
      • Repeat a few times.
        • Try to at least raise your head and look Jiraiya in the eye without hurting yourself.
    • Ask Jiraiya for intel on our competitors.
    • Proceed to tournament.
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Anderkent said:
I guess this is true insofar you can imply anything from falsity.

I thought it was consensus that Keiko did not outmaneouver Hana or argue her into a corner, she just managed to find one thing that they both care about (but not actually convince Hana to want to help, c.f. what happened next?)
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Powered by the idea of Mari-sensei experiencing pure despair and loneliness( and naturally the complete rejection of this), she wielded Hana's own narrative like a sword to pen her into grudging tolerance of the formers existence.
Velorien said:
"Not for an instant," Hana agreed. "But if you're willing to go that far, you must believe that you can do a better job of handling that relationship than either of us. Do you think you can understand my feelings better than an experienced, specially-trained adult? Or hers?"

Kei's conviction wavered. How was she supposed to prevail against Hana if Mari-sensei could not?

But to retreat would be to leave Mari-sensei in that dark room.

"I made no such claim," she said, holding tightly onto that image. If she could not have courage, she could at least have the strength of a cornered animal. "But my capabilities are irrelevant. You are hurting someone I love. Whatever 'truth' you've told her, I do not believe it, and I will not allow a liar into my home."
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Velorien said:
She kept imagining Mari-sensei in the dark room. It was the way she could sustain herself in the face of a woman who felt both stronger and wiser than her, and the purity of whose motivations she could not deny. The only way she could withstand any Kurosawa powers Hana might be using, which she could not recognise, and certainly not repel.
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Velorien said:
It was compelling. So painfully compelling. Kei finally understood the terror of the diplomat clan. Hana was presenting a reasonable narrative, one in which everything that happened was both natural and inevitable, and yet that somehow led to "Mari-sensei brought it on herself" and "There is nothing you can do".

What was Kei's narrative? She did not have one. She did not even have a plan. All she had was her anger, and a naïve desire to protect.

She hated this, how her supposedly great intellect invariably failed her in times of crisis, forcing her to grope blindly in the dark against overwhelming odds. Hated herself for being so weak. That narrative was eternal and unchanging.

Kei should just surrender. She had overreached. She had thrown a tantrum and an adult had patiently explained why she was wrong. She had somehow allowed herself to believe that throwing down the gauntlet was the only thing necessary to succeed, after having learned no more than the mere basics of the art of intimidation. She had failed Mari-sensei, both as a pupil and as a rescuer. She would focus on Hazō and let the adults sort out their own mess.
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Velorien said:
Hana's narrative was the only narrative. She had no choice to accept it. But, the thought came to her like one sudden beam of light through the storm clouds, did that necessarily mean defeat?

"Are you focusing on Hazō, Hana?"

Hana blinked. "Of course I am. He's all that matters."

"And Mari-sensei is…" it took Kei a second to make herself say it, "a terrible human being unworthy to be called his parent for innumerable reasons."

"Charitably put, yes."

"Then why are you in competition with her?"

Hana's eyes flared. It was the shattering of a mask that Kei had not even realised was there. "I am not in competition with that woman! I am his mother!"
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Velorien said:
Use Hana's narrative. Draw on its strength since you have none of your own.

"Is Mari-sensei's influence over him greater than yours? You with the truth on your side and her with self-serving lies?"

Hana looked as if she had bitten into an acerbic tomato.

"And how would that be different from the power struggle you claim we're in?"

"Because you would not be lashing out against each other," Kei said simply. "Because you would not be attempting to force Hazō to sever ties with somebody he loves. You should not be threatened by a person you consider incapable of being his mother. On her part, Mari-sensei, or your vision of her, should know that tools can be shared as well as fought over.

"If I have learned anything over two years of bonding with strange people in the wilderness, it is that in a tight-knit group, each member is constantly influencing the personalities of the others. If you wish to join our tight-knit group, then you must accept that you will not be the only influence on Hazō, and that you will be influenced in return."

"Yes," Hana muttered to herself. "Please beat the career diplomat with arguments from human social behaviour."
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Velorien said:
"You call that woman your sensei, right?"

"…Yes?"

"Then by the power that would be vested in me by the Mizukage if I really insisted, I hereby retroactively pronounce you a social-spec in training. I refuse to be out-argued by an amateur."

After Kei was done choking, she forced out, "That cannot possibly be valid by Leaf law."

"If I have the measure of the Hokage after that afterparty, he'll ratify it because he thinks it's funny."

Damn.
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She does so pretty impressively, if I do say so.

(Despite possessing the social skills of "A myopic trout." Her words, not mine.)

So perhaps I'm being hyperbolic a bit when I say "argued into a corner." or use similar phrases ( I do use "Dragonball tier shit" to describe something...) here. Please do not take every word I say at face value. I think its clear contextually that I don't literally mean "She did something impossible! Shonen powers activate!".

As far as it relates to the discussion of "Characters being able to do amazing stuff normally outside their abilities sometimes when they have sufficient motivation.", it's certainly true.
 
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@Oneiros , you wanted to be pinged when we were past the part that focused on Mari's depression. We're there now, and the last two chapters ("Interlude: Potential" and chapter 227) are safe to read.
 
MMKII said:
Powered by the idea of Mari-sensei experiencing pure despair and loneliness( and naturally the complete rejection of this), she wielded Hana's own narrative like a sword to pen her into grudging tolerance of the formers existence.

She does so pretty impressively, if I do say so.

(Despite possessing the social skills of "A myopic trout." Her words, not mine.)

So perhaps I'm being hyperbolic a bit when I say "argued into a corner." or use similar phrases ( I do use "Dragonball tier shit" to describe something...) here. Please do not take every word I say at face value. I think its clear contextually that I don't literally mean "She did something impossible! Shonen powers activate!".

As far as it relates to the discussion of "Characters being able to do amazing stuff normally outside their abilities sometimes when they have sufficient motivation.", it's certainly true.
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I failed to see what Keiko has accomplished, other than boosting her self esteem? Hana didn't bother to fix Mari.
 
Kiba said:
I failed to see what Keiko has accomplished, other than boosting her self esteem? Hana didn't bother to fix Mari.
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Don't just remove all situational context from it and tell me that "An attempt was made to do X, but X was not done. That's all that happened."

Because that's not what happened. At all.

If you think that her failing to persuade Hana to fix Mari was the only thing of note there, I have no idea what to tell you.
 
MMKII said:
Don't just remove all situational context from it and tell me that "An attempt was made to do X, but X was not done. That's all that happened."

Because that's not what happened. At all.

If you think that her failing to persuade Hana to fix Mari was the only thing of note there, I have no idea what to tell you.
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Well. I am even more socially inept than Keiko in this situation. Explain the context?
 
Kiba said:
Well. I am even more socially inept than Keiko in this situation. Explain the context?
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I pretty much do so in the post 5 posts above this one. The one that you quoted?

I'm not sure what else to tell you, other than give a heavily annotated version of that chapter. That, I do not have the time to do (believe it or not :p )
 
MMKII said:
I pretty much do so in the post 5 posts above this one. The one that you quoted?

I'm not sure what else to tell you, other than give a heavily annotated version of that chapter. That, I do not have the time to do (believe it or not :p )
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I think what's being contested is the question whether Hana was actually talked into tolerance of Mari. She might kinda acknowledge it in the conversation, but as soon as she's given opportunity to hurt her more by Hazou, she takes it. Or do you think that the waterboarding and shaming into pretending to be functional was actually well-intended?
 
Anderkent said:
I think what's being contested is the question whether Hana was actually talked into tolerance of Mari. She might kinda acknowledge it in the conversation, but as soon as she's given opportunity to hurt her more by Hazou, she takes it. Or do you think that the waterboarding and shaming into pretending to be functional was actually well-intended?
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It's posssible that Hana saw an opportunity to hurt Mari while also helping her.

However, I doubt Hana has Mari's best interest at heart.
 
Anderkent said:
I think what's being contested is the question whether Hana was actually talked into tolerance of Mari. She might kinda acknowledge it in the conversation, but as soon as she's given opportunity to hurt her more by Hazou, she takes it. Or do you think that the waterboarding and shaming into pretending to be functional was actually well-intended?
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I do think that they would have tolerated each other until we demanded that Hana "fix" Mari.

I do not doubt that Hana's opinions on Mari remain unchanged after Chapter 215. I am not arguing this at all.

I am pointing out that Keiko being able to do what she did is impressive, its efficacy is another matter entirely.
 
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