Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

[Emstar]

OK yeah...I'm going to agree with DAKKA here. I was OK with tournament betting , but gambling is a no-go for me. Especially since we got shit on by the Yakuza a long time ago for that exact thing (cheating). Yes, we worked to clean the slate, but stirring up shit AGAIN for doing the exact thing we've worked to clean up sends a bad message.

Click to shrink...

???

We're doing it to their advantage though, and we're only cheating rich foreign folk.

My (and @DAKKA! 's, I think?) objection is including people other than Noburi,Hazou and Keiko in on this. Why are we inviting half the clan heirs to this?

Ideally? I'd just have Hazou do this, actually. He has the most experience with casino's, has the highest Deceit score, has shown to be decently proficient at disguising himself to civvies, etc.

Inviting the others to this is sorta like that time we put "Yeah so remember: Gotta keep J as the Hokage!" into the post Tipserator plan and Hinata was like "lol no" and Hazou was like "Eegads! How could you!?" while we all facepalmed. Just because they're friends/friendly with us doesn't mean they'd be down to do shady shit with us.

We're "Get tea and cookies and play tabletop games" friends, not "Hey lets go rob rich folk and split the profits with the local mafia" friends.

 

[faflec]

We're doing it to their advantage though, and we're only cheating rich foreign folk.

Click to shrink...

To the Yakuza it might not matter. They have a reputation to uphold, however much of a lie it really is.

Inviting the others to this is sorta like that time we put "Yeah so remember: Gotta keep J as the Hokage!" into the post Tipserator plan and Hinata was like "lol no" and Hazou was like "Eegads! How could you!?" while we all facepalmed. Just because they're friends/friendly with us doesn't mean they'd be down to do shady shit with us.

Click to shrink...

So are....you gonna get rid of that part then?

 

[Inferno Vulpix]

I still have a bad feeling about the gambling plan, for a combination of reasons it's not too easy for me to tease apart. I'd like to spend some time working through my concerns and, if not convince you all of them, hear reasonable counters, but I'm unfortunately too busy for that today.

Therefore, all I can really say about it is that I don't think good things will come from it and I intend to vote against it if possible.

 

[Emstar]

To the Yakuza it might not matter. They have a reputation to uphold, however much of a lie it really is.

So are....you gonna get rid of that part then?

Click to shrink...

Yes.

I still have a bad feeling about the gambling plan, for a combination of reasons it's not too easy for me to tease apart. I'd like to spend some time working through my concerns and, if not convince you all of them, hear reasonable counters, but I'm unfortunately too busy for that today.

Therefore, all I can really say about it is that I don't think good things will come from it and I intend to vote against it if possible.

Click to shrink...

Feel free to voice concerns to/at me over Discord if you don't have the time to unpack things and organizify it all into a post.


Edits:

Okay. Lets try this again. I will not be doing major edits. Copypaste as you desire.

Do not vote for this by username, since we don't have a clear ruling on whether those votes count.

WC:296
[x]Sequitur consilium

• Jiraiya (bring Noburi):
  • Fully inform him on Mari's situation: Hana's involvement, responses, past experiences.
    • Plead not to worsen through rash decisions.
    • Suggest informing Anko and Neira, Mari's friends (?), about her situation.
    • (PREPARE: Consult the clan (sans Mari) for approval/advice.)
    • (Hazou's mentality: upset with Hana, struggles reconciling her actions with his love.)
  • Suggestions on Mist Yakuza (implement provided agreement):
    • Produce Casino Seals to sell. (PREPARE: Consult Keiko regarding estimated quantity.)
    • Cooperate on tournament betting and casino gambling:
      • Gambling: Disguised as a nobleman's son, Hazou cheats rich foreigners in exchange for a cut (50%?).
      • Train under Mari, ask Jiraiya for tips.
  • Kagome's birthday: Remind. Ask to come, if not for long.
• Ask Jiraiya, Hana, Mari, Kagome about tournament:
  • General rules.
  • Information on opponents.
  • Cheating:
    • In general.
    • Starting with Living Roots pre-activated.

• Mari: Keep company. Discuss light topics.
• Kagome: Ask for an Akatsuki Book copy/summary.
• Shikamaru: Lunch with.
  • Exchange book recommendations.
  • Game night: He's lucky he missed it. Did Shiori say anything?
  • Till'n'fills: Small innovation, but helps both civilians and Leaf.
• Noburi: Confide in.
  • So much happening lately: bizarre nightmares, family drama, politics, tournament, Akatsuki, Pangolins...
  • We're glad to have a bro like him seeing it through with us.

• Train:
  • Ebisu.
  • "Wounded-rabbit act": Run by Kagome. Train under Hana.
    • Practice faking injuries across body.
      • (Mechanically: quickly create Fragile Aspects.)
    • Ask for tiny laminated storage seals, fill with pig blood
      • Palm with Sleight-of-Hand, release in-fight/after to fake injury.
  • Blindfighting: Living Roots, Vibrator Seals, Banshee Slayers + Smokebombs.
    • Purchase flashbangs/smokebombs (or test ash/soot-filled macerators: Use SOP).
    • Purchase camouflagable cloth and cloaks (cheap, identical).
      • Test: Wrap seals (Vibrator, Banshee Slayer) around body.
      • Wear Usamatsu's/Tunnelers Friend to breathe.
    • Assess efficacy.

• Other:
  • Improve Vibrator Seals.
  • Prepare for Kagome's birthday.
    • Invite Akane.
      • Remind: She's welcome at the compound!
    • Prepare present.

Click to shrink...

 

[UmbraofChaos]

You know, on further consideration that Kurosawa diplomacy lesson is deadly levels of important. I love power. I recognize that in terms of relative strength we're weak personally and ho boy as an organization and clan we're on tough times so I totally support any attempt to grab at influence, money, and additional power. But goddamn is it apparent that the bonds the team has is not sufficient to keep things together. We're far too fragile emotionally. Except Noburi actually. I might be missing things but he seems to be in really good shape overall. Drama and emotional assaults so far have proven to be more deadly than Zabuza at this point. He's a bit wiser then he was, more composed, but we need a lot more than that. Hopefully with a ton of bloodline cheating. I know that I'm probably not saying anything new but the thought of how bad we need Hazou to have social proficiency but I can only see wonderful things for these messed up children if he got real good at this.

Also yeah, I don't see the point in bringing along a ton of people for the purposes of gambling. It's not a risk free idea but it honestly isn't that dangerous and doesn't violate our morals terribly. The only problem may be the yakuza but as long as we talk to someone in the know about it I can't see this going horribly wrong.

 

[ContextBot]

Why don't we just ask Kagome about selling the pin?

• Ask Kagome: selling Akane's birthday pin for gambling money, is that ok with him?
  • Send Keiko to sell it

Also I know that the Anko/Neira thing is something that we run by the others, but Mari still only knows them for 2-3 months. Even if they don't talk with her about her actual problems I not sure what they are supposed to do, if Mari wanted to party to forget she would already done it and Neira is a Yamanaka, not sure if it's smart to give them any insight into our problems.

I haven't really paid attention for a few pages but how do we want to combine our super team leaf + Neji into the betting? Most of them are also in the tournament?

But people who are not in the exams might want us to place bets for them, with all the money those civilians don't have.

Also the Vibrator seal get's triggered if we use our own jutsu, how is this going to help with detecting people if it gets triggered by our own jutsu like living roots?

 

[Emstar]

You know, on further consideration that Kurosawa diplomacy lesson is deadly levels of important. I love power. I recognize that in terms of relative strength we're weak personally and ho boy as an organization and clan we're on tough times so I totally support any attempt to grab at influence, money, and additional power.

Click to shrink...

Music to my ears!!!

 

[DAKKA!]

OK yeah...I'm going to agree with DAKKA here. I was OK with tournament betting , but gambling is a no-go for me. Especially since we got shit on by the Yakuza a long time ago for that exact thing (cheating). Yes, we worked to clean the slate, but stirring up shit AGAIN for doing the exact thing we've worked to clean up sends a bad message.

Click to shrink...

I am okay with cheating in gambling and betting as long as we have plausible deniability.

Mist shouldn't find out as it'll strain the ongoing diplomatic discussions.

I already mentioned my opinions of the clan kids knowing about it.

Anyone too important shouldn't be pissed off at us for cleaning out their purse.

And we should probably keep in mind that the Yakuza aren't our friends and may use us as a scapegoat if something goes wrong. We as foreigners are ideal targets for this.

So essentially plausible deniability.

 

[Emstar]

I am okay with cheating in gambling and betting as long as we have plausible deniability.

Mist shouldn't find out as it'll strain the ongoing diplomatic discussions.

I already mentioned my opinions of the clan kids knowing about it.

Anyone too important shouldn't be pissed off at us for cleaning out their purse.

And we should probably keep in mind that the Yakuza aren't our friends and may use us as a scapegoat if something goes wrong. We as foreigners are ideal targets for this.

So essentially plausible deniability.

Click to shrink...

If those are your preferences, would you consider voting for my version over Cari's?


Likewise this goes to anyone else who wants to be relatively conservative with the gambling/not have us proposing potentially boneheaded ideas to the J man re: getting half of Leafs clan heirs in on this

 

[UmbraofChaos]

As an addendum to the whole diplomacy deal we need to ask Hana for relationship advice because while our team is great they're really muddling through their own personal romance. I'm sure in Hazou's mind what he would see as an ideal relationship is still his parents' which stood against tremendous external pressure and seemed near perfect from within too. Some insight regarding that would be great once we work out dealing with the boatload of other things. Of course that's a future thing but I'd put it on the list for later considerations.

 

[Kiba]

As an addendum to the whole diplomacy deal we need to ask Hana for relationship advice because while our team is great they're really muddling through their own personal romance. I'm sure in Hazou's mind what he would see as an ideal relationship is still his parents' which stood against tremendous external pressure and seemed near perfect from within too. Some insight regarding that would be great once we work out dealing with the boatload of other things. Of course that's a future thing but I'd put it on the list for later considerations.

Click to shrink...

The whole family drama thing is Hana's fault.

 

[UmbraofChaos]

The whole family drama thing is Hana's fault.

Click to shrink...

Well yes, but I'm talking more romantic relationships and am also tossing it into the future for consideration because of that.

 

[Emstar]

Also the Vibrator seal get's triggered if we use our own jutsu, how is this going to help with detecting people if it gets triggered by our own jutsu like living roots?

Click to shrink...

I believe the point is to make Keiko's suggested modifications so that we can use them to detect different types of techniques and then filter out any reactions it does to our own (like Living Roots, for example).

 

[DAKKA!]

Back to
[x]Sequitur consilium
it is

 

[ContextBot]

As an addendum to the whole diplomacy deal we need to ask Hana for relationship advice because while our team is great they're really muddling through their own personal romance. I'm sure in Hazou's mind what he would see as an ideal relationship is still his parents' which stood against tremendous external pressure and seemed near perfect from within too. Some insight regarding that would be great once we work out dealing with the boatload of other things. Of course that's a future thing but I'd put it on the list for later considerations.

Click to shrink...

Advice sounds good, but Hazou should probably go for a political marriage, Mari and Keiko are doing it, seems kind of unfair if we didn't even try to find out what our options are (we can still try to be romantic towards that girl).

I believe the point is to make Keiko's suggested modifications so that we can use them to detect different types of techniques and then filter out any reactions it does to our own (like Living Roots, for example).

Click to shrink...

That should be clarified in the plans, or is this a placeholder for something to put retroactive in the next plan?

 

[UmbraofChaos]

Advice sounds good, but Hazou should probably go for a political marriage, Mari and Keiko are doing it, seems kind of unfair if we didn't even try to find out what our options are (we can still try to be romantic towards that girl).

Click to shrink...

Oh yeah, I'm not arguing for choice on who to marry. This is more a general idea of what a healthy relationship should look like, what are the pitfalls, how to make it work. Maybe a list. But yeah. Just an idea of how to make things work, regardless of what the thread ends up pursuing.

 

[Emstar]

Pls vote

Edits:

1) Removed Shika talk. Not temporally pressing. (Incidentally, @Roomba my plan has us NOT spending time with Shika. I can haz vote?)
2) Explicitly spending 1-2 days on Improved Vibrator Seal research with Kagome's help.
3) Clarifying that we should try training the blindfighting with Improved Vibrators (pending completion) as per @ContextBot 's recommendations.
4) I am under the 300 wc limit for +1 XP (but ye gods how this was possible is beyond me).

Okay. Lets try this again. I will not be doing major edits. Copypaste as you desire.

Do not vote for this by username, since we don't have a clear ruling on whether those votes count.

WC:286
[x]Sequitur consilium

• Jiraiya (bring Noburi):
  • Fully inform him on Mari's situation: Hana's involvement, responses, past experiences.
    • Plead not to worsen through rash decisions.
    • Suggest informing Anko and Neira, Mari's friends (?), about her situation.
    • (PREPARE: Consult the clan (sans Mari) for approval/advice.)
    • (Hazou's mentality: upset with Hana, struggles reconciling her actions with his love.)
  • Suggestions on Mist Yakuza (implement provided agreement):
    • Produce Casino Seals to sell. (PREPARE: Consult Keiko regarding estimated quantity.)
    • Cooperate on tournament betting and casino gambling:
      • Gambling: Disguised as a nobleman's son, Hazou cheats rich foreigners in exchange for a cut (50%?).
      • Train under Mari, ask Jiraiya for tips.
  • Kagome's birthday: Remind. Ask to come, if not for long.
• Ask Jiraiya, Hana, Mari about tournament:
  • General rules.
  • Information on opponents.
  • Cheating:
    • In general.
    • Starting with Living Roots pre-activated.

• Mari: Keep company. Discuss light topics.
• Kagome: Ask for an Akatsuki Book copy/summary.
• Noburi: Confide in.
  • So much happening lately: bizarre nightmares, family drama, politics, tournament, Akatsuki, Pangolins...
  • We're glad to have a bro like him seeing it through with us.

• Train:
  • Ebisu.
  • "Wounded-rabbit act": Run by Kagome. Train under Hana.
    • Practice faking injuries across body.
      • (Mechanically: quickly create Fragile Aspects.)
    • Ask for tiny laminated storage seals, fill with pig blood
      • Palm with Sleight-of-Hand, release in-fight/after to fake injury.
  • Blindfighting: Living Roots, Vibrator Seals, Banshee Slayers + Smokebombs.
    • Purchase flashbangs/smokebombs (or test ash/soot-filled macerators: Use SOP).
    • Purchase camouflagable cloth and cloaks (cheap, identical).
      • Test: Wrap seals (Vibrator, Banshee Slayer) around body.
      • Wear Usamatsu's/Tunnelers Friend to breathe.
    • Assess efficacy.
    • Try with Improved Vibrators (if completed)?

• Other:
  • Improve Vibrator Seals according to Keiko's suggestions.
    • Spend 1-2 days. Ask for Kagome's help?
  • Prepare for Kagome's birthday.
    • Invite Akane.
      • Remind: She's welcome at the compound!
    • Prepare present.

Click to shrink...

 

[ContextBot]

Pls vote

Edits:

1) Removed Shika talk. Not temporally pressing. (Incidentally, @Roomba my plan has us NOT spending time with Shika. I can haz vote?)
2) Explicitly spending 1-2 days on Improved Vibrator Seal research with Kagome's help.
3) Clarifying that we should try training the blindfighting with Improved Vibrators (pending completion) as per @ContextBot 's recommendations.
4) I am under the 300 wc limit for +1 XP (but ye gods how this was possible is beyond me).

Click to shrink...

Send S-rank Nobby to fetch Akane for Kagome birthday. Make Origami for Kagome birthday?

Still don't like the Anko/Neira stuff but fine.
[x]Sequitur consilium

 

[Kiba]

We're not inviting Honoka?

 

[Lailoken]

The Casino Gambling (with cheating) essentially amounts to petty thievery.

Us discussing of our plans to do so with the clan kids (especially the Hyuga) may be seen as negative social signalling, that our finances are in dire straits as someone who is wealthy would probably not resort to these tactics.

The wealthy may spend lavishly and wastefully as a way of signalling their wealth. What we're doing may signal exactly the opposite of wealth or financial stability.

I am probably looking too deep into it. Either way if the above holds any weight Jiraiya will probably mention it to us.

Also, Neji is coming to Mist? I thought he was out of the running?

Click to shrink...

Grand larceny, if we walk away with the amounts we're hoping for, and while I can see the Clans having a general attitude of such things being beneath them, they are ultimately professional thieves, spies, and assassins along with the "kids will be kids" factor. Remember that ninja children are specifically taught to cheat as a standard part of their childhood games. It's only shameful if you get caught, and then only because you weren't good enough to avoid being caught.

If Jiraiya, Mari, and Nara in that order all sign off on including somebody I'm inclined to believe that they collectively know what they are doing, so there's not much of a risk in raising the possibility.

Neji was a candidate, is family to a current candidate, is still insured, and ultimately wasn't declared persona non grata. I don't see any reason why his permission to attend would have been revoked by Mist.

OK yeah...I'm going to agree with DAKKA here. I was OK with tournament betting , but gambling is a no-go for me. Especially since we got shit on by the Yakuza a long time ago for that exact thing (cheating). Yes, we worked to clean the slate, but stirring up shit AGAIN for doing the exact thing we've worked to clean up sends a bad message.

Click to shrink...

-which is why, before any gambling is done, we come to an arrangement with the big boss yakuza whom we have a very profitable relationship with and who spontaneously raised the fact that the team is making them a lot of money through their role as managers of the enhanced local gambling industry. It's not an unprovoked offer, and if they don't want to play they can simply turn it down.

???

We're doing it to their advantage though, and we're only cheating rich foreign folk.

My (and @DAKKA! 's, I think?) objection is including people other than Noburi,Hazou and Keiko in on this. Why are we inviting half the clan heirs to this?

Ideally? I'd just have Hazou do this, actually. He has the most experience with casino's, has the highest Deceit score, has shown to be decently proficient at disguising himself to civvies, etc.

Inviting the others to this is sorta like that time we put "Yeah so remember: Gotta keep J as the Hokage!" into the post Tipserator plan and Hinata was like "lol no" and Hazou was like "Eegads! How could you!?" while we all facepalmed. Just because they're friends/friendly with us doesn't mean they'd be down to do shady shit with us.

We're "Get tea and cookies and play tabletop games" friends, not "Hey lets go rob rich folk and split the profits with the local mafia" friends.

Click to shrink...

Every additional special ability on the team increases our competitive advantage geometrically, and we have been putting no small effort into building relationships with them to the point of achieving a, "Hey lets go rob rich folk and split the profits with the local mafia", level of friendship. Given the clan alliances and engagement the Nara are not only there, but well into, "Okay, I'll help you cover up the murder of a clan heir", territory.

-and, again, "shady" doesn't mean the same thing to ninja. Theirs is a culture where cheating is a perfectly normal and expected part of every encounter. Heck, most of them don't even think of the civilians being fleeced as fully human.

 

[Cariyaga]

The more this is talked about, the less comfortable I am with this gambling stuff.

 

[Emstar]

Grand larceny, if we walk away with the amounts we're hoping for, and while I can see the Clans having a general attitude of such things being beneath them, they are ultimately professional thieves, spies, and assassins along with the "kids will be kids" factor. Remember that ninja children are specifically taught to cheat as a standard part of their childhood games. It's only shameful if you get caught, and then only because you weren't good enough to avoid being caught.

If Jiraiya, Mari, and Nara in that order all sign off on including somebody I'm inclined to believe that they collectively know what they are doing, so there's not much of a risk in raising the possibility.

Neji was a candidate, is family to a current candidate, is still insured, and ultimately wasn't declared persona non grata. I don't see any reason why his permission to attend would have been revoked by Mist.





-which is why, before any gambling is done, we come to an arrangement with the big boss yakuza who we have a very profitable relationship with and who spontaneously raised the fact that the team is making them a lot of money through their role as managers of the enhanced local gambling industry. It's not an unprovoked offer, and if they don't want to play they can simply turn it down.





Every additional special ability on the team increases our competitive advantage geometrically, and we have been putting no small effort into building relationships with them to the point of achieving a, "Hey lets go rob rich folk and split the profits with the local mafia", level of friendship. Given the clan alliances and engagement the Nara are not only there, but well into, "Okay, I'll help you cover up the murder of a clan heir", territory.

-and, again, "shady" doesn't mean the same thing to ninja. Theirs is a culture where cheating is a perfectly normal and expected part of every encounter. Heck, most of them don't even think of the civilians being fleeced as fully human.

Click to shrink...

I think you're counting on those involved to be rational actors and be swayed by the cost-benefit analysis and the obvious net gain instead of irrational and emotional things like pride, chivalry,crimelord honor, paranoia etc

 

[DAKKA!]

Grand larceny, if we walk away with the amounts we're hoping for

Click to shrink...

The problem here is the if. We'll be competing with other opportunistic ninja. Who knows there may be a whole group of rebellious Kurosawa teenagers spreading mischief.

If we aren't successful it will look bad. We would have roped them into committing petty thievery for pocket change.

I've discussed my other reasons
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest | Page 4682

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest | Page 4681


We have burnt some social capital with some of the clan kids with our bumbling, let's not burn even more.

Neji was a candidate, is family to a current candidate, is still insured, and ultimately wasn't declared persona non grata. I don't see any reason why his permission to attend would have been revoked by Mist.

Click to shrink...

We barely know the guy. I doubt the Hyuga will let him out of the dungeon for some pocket change/ or just because we asked them.

Every additional special ability on the team increases our competitive advantage geometrically

Click to shrink...

Every additonal teenager on the operation increases the potential for drama geometrically (r > 1).

-and, again, "shady" doesn't mean the same thing to ninja. Theirs is a culture where cheating is a perfectly normal and expected part of every encounter.

Click to shrink...

It's perfectly normal as long as it doesn't become public. Greater the number of people who know about it, greater the chance of a leak.

We surely don't want mist to know that we're trying to build diplomatic relations with their criminal elements and engaging in crime while in their village.

It definitely would be convenient for the Hyuga to have as much dirt as possible on us.

 

[Roomba]

1) Removed Shika talk. Not temporally pressing. (Incidentally, @Roomba my plan has us NOT spending time with Shika. I can haz vote?)

Click to shrink...

For the record, I don't mind talking to Shikamaru. In fact, I do think we should thank him for having our back during the exam. Given that he emphatically dislikes going out, perhaps there's a better venue for this than some random cafe, too. We also ultimately didn't ask him why he didn't want to take charge back in the Marsh of Mild Inconvenience.

What I don't want is to talk to him about exam strategy or uplift stuff. I expect that will end in Hazou being talked down to, again, and not lead to anything useful or constructive.

As for the plan, it looks good to me. A point to clarify, the intent of the gambling section is to seek permission from the Mist yakuza and split the proceeds with them, yes?

 

[UmbraofChaos]

Our friendship/closeness with the other clan heirs is really useful. No one clan can stand on their own in Konoha. But I feel that continuing to involve them especially in such a manner runs the risk of overreliance on others, even if it's for greater gains. Perhaps if we were content to make use of the pangolins in their entirety I wouldn't particularly mind as it doesn't really mean too much, but outside of game night there's a level of seriousness to all of this. Some may say yes, some may say no, but sometimes it's important to show that the clan can make gains solely by their own merits. Furthermore, just because we have rapport with them doesn't mean that they're all on our sides. They have their own goals and needs to fulfill for the sake of their own clans and showing our hand to them for the purpose of how we want to gain profits isn't risk free. It simply seems better to handle this ourselves with advice rather than pull on our various resources that have their own strings attached for this.