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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Inferno Vulpix said:
It's less that there have been too many changes, and more that it's too easy to feel confused about which change is most recent, and that confusion can act as a stumbling block. A clear and 'loud' announcement about the way something works in FtD, followed by a quieter revision, can leave you unsure which version is correct (after all, it's easy to mix up the chronology and think that the loud one might have come later because you remember it better).

Consulting the rules doc is the obvious next step after this, and while sometimes you can't feel 100% certain that the QMs kept that part up to date (When I looked up Nightlight seals they were still presented in their pre-retcon form, which was reasonable given their relative unimportance but caused a bit of confusion) you can often get the right answer out of it. The trouble is that you have to decide to check it, and it's easy to get stuck in [confused] and stop there because you don't know which way to go.

So don't get disheartened if you don't already know the answer, if you look it up there's good odds you'll find it explained in the rules and very good odds that's the most recent version of the rules. It's also okay to make recommendation for small segments of systems in isolation. I don't really know what our long term plans are for Hazou's XP build, but I know that we want stuff like Alertness, Chakra Reserves, Empathy, and Sealing in the short and mid terms, so I felt able to build a short-to-mid-term plan for Hazou's XP.
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On the note of the rules:

@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail Any progress on the next release of them?
 
Rather than keep arguing the point, I constructed a method by which to estimate XP sink over a build.
# -*- coding: utf-8 -*-
"""
Created on Sat Sep 29 16:36:21 2018
@author: Steven
"""
XPrate_per_day = 4
XPreq = [1,
10*11/2,
20*21/2,
30*31/2,
40*41/2,
50*51/2,
60*61/2,
70*71/2,
80*81/2,
90*91/2,
100*101/2,
110*111/2,
120*121/2,
130*131/2,
140*141/2,
150*151/2]

levels = [17, 4, 5, # 1, 10, 20
1, 1, 1, # 30, 40, 50
1, 1, 1, # 60, 70, 80
1, 2] # 90, 100
totalXP = 0
for i in range(len(levels)):
totalXP = totalXP + levels*XPreq

# 100 - Alertness Ranged Weapons
# 90 - Athletics
# 80 - Elemental 1
# 70 - Deceit
# 60 - Chakra Capacity
# 50 - Elemental 2
# 40 - Resolve
# 30 - Empathy, Frozen Skein
# 20 - Physique, Presence, Intimidation, Stealth, Echolocation
# 10 - Rapport, Substitution, Ghost Scales, Z. Reach
# 1 -many techniques/skills
totalXP = totalXP + XPreq[6] # for chakra capacity
totalXP = totalXP - XPreq[5]/2 # for elemental technique at 60
totalXP = totalXP - XPreq[2]/2 # for elemental technique at 20
totalXP = totalXP - XPreq[1]/2 # for elemental technique at 10
"""
levels = [10, 8, 4, # 1, 10, 20
4, 3, 2, # 30, 40, 50
2, 2, 3] # 60, 70, 80

totalXP = 0
for i in range(len(levels)):
totalXP = totalXP + levels*XPreq
# 80 - Alertness, Athletics, Ranged
# 70 - Elemental 1, Deceit
# 60 - Chakra Capacity, Elemental 2
# 50 - Empathy, Resolve
# 40 - Presence/Rapport/Intimidation, Physique, Frozen Skein
# 30 - Presence/Rapport/Intimidation, Elemental 3, Elemental 4
# 20 - Stealth, Substitution, Echolocation, Elemental 5, Elemental 6
# 10 - Rapport, Ghost Scales, P. Hammer, Z. Reaach, 4 techniques/skills
# 1 - Many techniques/ most other skills
totalXP = totalXP + XPreq[6] # for chakra capacity
totalXP = totalXP - XPreq[6]/2 # for elemental technique at 60
totalXP = totalXP - XPreq[3] # for 2 elemental technique at 30
totalXP = totalXP - 1.5 * XPreq[2] # for 3 elemental technique at 20
totalXP = totalXP - XPreq[1]/2 # for elemental technique at 10
"""

totalXP = totalXP * 1.1 # for stunts
lifetimeXP = totalXP
totalXP = totalXP - 1500 # starting XP at age 12
age = totalXP / XPrate_per_day / 365. + 12

Mid-Jonin Keiko: 30 ish years old, 29000 ish lifetime XP (10% allocated to stunts over lifetime). I got both examples to about 29300 +/- 25 - so about as close as Im willing to spend effort on fixing.

# 80 - Alertness, Athletics, Ranged
# 70 - Elemental 1, Deceit
# 60 - Chakra Capacity, Elemental 2
# 50 - Empathy, Resolve
# 40 - Presence/Rapport/Intimidation, Physique, Frozen Skein
# 30 - Presence/Rapport/Intimidation, Elemental 3, Elemental 4
# 20 - Stealth, Substitution, Echolocation, Elemental 5, Elemental 6
# 10 - Rapport, Ghost Scales, P. Hammer, Z. Reach, 4 techniques/skills
# 1 - Many techniques/ most other skills

# 100 - Alertness Ranged Weapons
# 90 - Athletics
# 80 - Elemental 1
# 70 - Deceit
# 60 - Chakra Capacity
# 50 - Elemental 2
# 40 - Resolve
# 30 - Empathy, Frozen Skein
# 20 - Physique, Presence, Intimidation, Stealth, Echolocation
# 10 - Rapport, Substitution, Ghost Scales, Z. Reach
# 1 -many techniques/skills

The specialized build is better at its main focus (Combat - Alertness, Ranged, Athletics, Elemental 1 (some combat or support tech) are better), the same in Deceit and Chakra Capacity, but worse at generally everything else.

I chose high deceit here because it is a good attack and covers two important defenses (Deceit and Empathy). It could be valid to go high in another category (Empathy is second best, followed by Presence and Rapport, or Intimidation if you want a strong attack option)
 
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MadScientist said:
That is a valid concern, especially as the QMs seem to be modelling social combat narratively more often than with rolls (or else Kei would have lost to Hana).
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I have no clue how you can read that update and determine that Hana lost to Kei. Hana got essentially everything she wanted out of Keiko. Not only did she stop a rift from developing between herself and Kei, she managed to boost Keiko's self esteem and make her want to be friends with her. She even managed to poison Mari a little bit, in Keiko's mind. Tell me, is there anything that would hurt Mari more than if Hana could take Keiko away from her?
 
Adept_Woodwright said:
Rather than keep arguing the point, I constructed a method by which to estimate XP sink over a build.
# -*- coding: utf-8 -*-
"""
Created on Sat Sep 29 16:36:21 2018
@author: Steven
"""
XPrate_per_day = 4
XPreq = [1,
10*11/2,
20*21/2,
30*31/2,
40*41/2,
50*51/2,
60*61/2,
70*71/2,
80*81/2,
90*91/2,
100*101/2,
110*111/2,
120*121/2,
130*131/2,
140*141/2,
150*151/2]

levels = [17, 4, 5, # 1, 10, 20
1, 1, 1, # 30, 40, 50
1, 1, 1, # 60, 70, 80
1, 2] # 90, 100
totalXP = 0
for i in range(len(levels)):
totalXP = totalXP + levels*XPreq

# 100 - Alertness Ranged Weapons
# 90 - Athletics
# 80 - Elemental 1
# 70 - Deceit
# 60 - Chakra Capacity
# 50 - Elemental 2
# 40 - Resolve
# 30 - Empathy, Frozen Skein
# 20 - Physique, Presence, Intimidation, Stealth, Echolocation
# 10 - Rapport, Substitution, Ghost Scales, Z. Reach
# 1 -many techniques/skills
totalXP = totalXP + XPreq[6] # for chakra capacity
totalXP = totalXP - XPreq[5]/2 # for elemental technique at 60
totalXP = totalXP - XPreq[2]/2 # for elemental technique at 20
totalXP = totalXP - XPreq[1]/2 # for elemental technique at 10
"""
levels = [10, 8, 4, # 1, 10, 20
4, 3, 2, # 30, 40, 50
2, 2, 3] # 60, 70, 80

totalXP = 0
for i in range(len(levels)):
totalXP = totalXP + levels*XPreq
# 80 - Alertness, Athletics, Ranged
# 70 - Elemental 1, Deceit
# 60 - Chakra Capacity, Elemental 2
# 50 - Empathy, Resolve
# 40 - Presence/Rapport/Intimidation, Physique, Frozen Skein
# 30 - Presence/Rapport/Intimidation, Elemental 3, Elemental 4
# 20 - Stealth, Substitution, Echolocation, Elemental 5, Elemental 6
# 10 - Rapport, Ghost Scales, P. Hammer, Z. Reaach, 4 techniques/skills
# 1 - Many techniques/ most other skills
totalXP = totalXP + XPreq[6] # for chakra capacity
totalXP = totalXP - XPreq[6]/2 # for elemental technique at 60
totalXP = totalXP - XPreq[3] # for 2 elemental technique at 30
totalXP = totalXP - 1.5 * XPreq[2] # for 3 elemental technique at 20
totalXP = totalXP - XPreq[1]/2 # for elemental technique at 10
"""

totalXP = totalXP * 1.1 # for stunts
lifetimeXP = totalXP
totalXP = totalXP - 1500 # starting XP at age 12
age = totalXP / XPrate_per_day / 365. + 12

Mid-Jonin Keiko: 30 ish years old, 29000 ish lifetime XP (10% allocated to stunts over lifetime). I got both examples to about 29300 +/- 25 - so about as close as Im willing to spend effort on fixing.

# 80 - Alertness, Athletics, Ranged
# 70 - Elemental 1, Deceit
# 60 - Chakra Capacity, Elemental 2
# 50 - Empathy, Resolve
# 40 - Presence/Rapport/Intimidation, Physique, Frozen Skein
# 30 - Presence/Rapport/Intimidation, Elemental 3, Elemental 4
# 20 - Stealth, Substitution, Echolocation, Elemental 5, Elemental 6
# 10 - Rapport, Ghost Scales, P. Hammer, Z. Reach, 4 techniques/skills
# 1 - Many techniques/ most other skills

# 100 - Alertness Ranged Weapons
# 90 - Athletics
# 80 - Elemental 1
# 70 - Deceit
# 60 - Chakra Capacity
# 50 - Elemental 2
# 40 - Resolve
# 30 - Empathy, Frozen Skein
# 20 - Physique, Presence, Intimidation, Stealth, Echolocation
# 10 - Rapport, Substitution, Ghost Scales, Z. Reach
# 1 -many techniques/skills

The specialized build is better at its main focus (Combat - Alertness, Ranged, Athletics, Elemental 1 (some combat or support tech) are better), the same in Deceit and Chakra Capacity, but worse at everything else.

I chose high deceit here because it is a good attack and covers two important defenses (Deceit and Empathy). It could be valid to go high in another category (Empathy is second best, followed by Presence and Rapport, or Intimidation if you want a strong attack option)
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Yeah, that seems to agree with my assessment: If you use anything other than the triple-stat or glass cannon builds then someone using those will beat you. If you use socials at a lower stage in the column then those lower-tier socials can't do anything meaningful to an equivalent opponent, although are still useful against weaker opponents. I don't understand what in that you disagree with.
 
eaglejarl said:
That actually got reverted to FATE's "column" standard. We went with the inverted pyramid originally in an effort to be nice because of higher skill ranges. @Radvic them demonstrated that under those rules he could create 2000-XP Kage-killers, so we went back to the normal version.

If you have N skills at level M then you must have at least N skills at level (M-1). All moves must still be legal.
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Adept_Woodwright said:
It's effectively (as in close to) the same - in the old version, the only difference was you could have one extra level in your highest skill.

In the given terms
For N skills at level M, all levels <M must have >= N-1 skills.

(Edit: To be clear, this is what the old rule reduces to, in effect.)

It is impossible to actually construct the inverted pyramid while following the rules.

Probably not worth re-reverting though.
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Adept_Woodwright said:
The more I think about it, this actually reduces to a regular pyramid with a small top column.

Consider the situation: You have 2 level 0 skills and 2 level 1. You want to get high levels as quickly as possible.
A legal move allows 2-1-1
The next legal move is 3-1-1
2-2-1
3-2-1
4-2-1
3-3-1
3-2-2
3-2-1-1
4-2-1-1
3-3-1-1
3-2-2-1
Etc.

The old version actually allows
1-1-1...-1-2
But that is the most top skew it is capable of.
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Cariyaga said:
Uh, aren't we using a proper skill pyramid?
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So, in spirit we are using the Fate Column, but the letter of the rule last time eaglejarl commented resulted in basic pyramid - because of the additional rule that all interim states must also be valid.
 
MadScientist said:
Yeah, that seems to agree with my assessment: If you use anything other than the triple-stat or glass cannon builds then someone using those will beat you. If you use socials at a lower stage in the column then those lower-tier socials can't do anything meaningful to an equivalent opponent, although are still useful against weaker opponents. I don't understand what in that you disagree with.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Mostly in calling them dump stats, which implies they are on the same tier as, say, Examination. If you crush someone with a bunch of social consequences, suddenly your stats at 30-50 start to matter again at a high level of play, while you still wouldn't be able to use them if you had left them in the 10s.
 
@Velorien were the last few social fights (Hana/Mari, Hana/Keiko) rolled for? I know you said you wouldn't publish the rolls for these things but I'd still be interested.

If you didn't, the downside is that it disincentivises (if that's a word) investing in social stats because they can be seen as irrelevant to the story.
 
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Those of us in the shadow cabal discord group were just discussing Hazou's future social growth, and I thought I'd summarize it here for more discussion.

Hazou's current three-stat social build (Deceit, Empathy, Resolve) is alright, but doesn't really suit Hazou well. In particular, his earnest sincerity runs totally counter to a Deceit focus and he's lacking any 'leadership' stats like Rapport or Presence. Narratively, this shapes Hazou for a future where he's got all these skills for lying that he never uses and meanwhile his skills as a 'natural leader' stagnate since he has trouble getting people go along with him unless they're already so inclined.

Under the proposed social stats system, we have two ways to change Hazou's build to get a leadership stat. We can switch out Empathy for Presence, or we can switch out Deceit for Rapport. Neither of those look good. We need Empathy because a lack of it is at the heart of a lot of Hazou's character troubles right now, and we can't dump Deceit because we need it for Roki.

But what if we could dump Roki and switch to another fighting style? You need a 'unique advantage' in order to get one, and Roki is built on using the Iron Nerve to help us make feints. If nothing else, we could take after Akane and develop a Physique-based fighting style leveraging our Pangolin Training Jutsu as our unique advantage (addendum: if we asked Akane about this right now it'd be heckin awkward but we're in no rush. We can wait a year and copy her fighting style once things have settled down between us), but we might have other options too. An Empathy-based fighting style based around the Iron Nerve might be workable, and we may be able to copy Kagome's Explosion Master fighting style too, but the important part is that we have options.

So the question is this: is it worth it to change our fighting style and dump Deceit? We'd leave Deceit higher leveled than the average dump stat, but I don't think we should underestimate the power of an Empathy/Rapport combo for connecting to people and inspiring them to follow you. It also leaves us with a three-stat social build that covers all our bases, so beyond the XP sunk into Roki we don't hit any inefficiencies. Any thoughts?
 
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Adept_Woodwright said:
Mostly in calling them dump stats, which implies they are on the same tier as, say, Examination. If you crush someone with a bunch of social consequences, suddenly your stats at 30-50 start to matter again at a high level of play, while you still wouldn't be able to use them if you had left them in the 10s.
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That's a more reasonable argument (although I think Examination is arguably more useful given that we now have a jutsu that boosts it). My response is this: when I call something a "dump stat" what I mean is "you can level this for the purpose of being a column skill with miscellaneous uses, but not for the purpose of being a high-level skill you use when fighting equivalent opponents". Because the "dump-stat" socials can't be used effectively against equivalent opponents without wrecking your build and putting you in danger.

And yes you might use such skills against opponents you have bludgeoned over the head with major consequences. But you wouldn't use them to win combat. Just to capitalise on the victory that your actual social build has already won you.
 
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Sampatrick said:
I have no clue how you can read that update and determine that Hana lost to Kei. Hana got essentially everything she wanted out of Keiko. Not only did she stop a rift from developing between herself and Kei, she managed to boost Keiko's self esteem and make her want to be friends with her. She even managed to poison Mari a little bit, in Keiko's mind. Tell me, is there anything that would hurt Mari more than if Hana could take Keiko away from her?
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I guess it depends on how much you think winning social combat impacts the status quo. Obviously the part where Kei feels she can't deny Hana's narrative is an effect of dominant social combat by Hana. (Hana's narrative is of course bullshit, though I'm not sure if she herself is aware of it.)

But the bit at the end, where Hana has to admit she shouldn't be competing against Mari regarding influence on Hazo.. I think Hana would have been happier of if it didn't happen. So it wasn't completely one sided.
 
Also - Holy Shit, Keiko takes 6 social stress every time she uses Frozen Skein to (quickly) analyze a plan? The hell have we been doing to her? That's a mild and moderate consequence every use.

I'm guessing we haven't exceeded the non-damaging time-limit yet?

The Best Laid Schemes
The user rapidly lowers themselves into the Frozen Skein and uses that analytical power to optimise their actions in real-time. This is extremely risky, and always carries consequences; the Mori Voice is (relatively) safe to touch if you can meditate your way into it and take your time with questions, but when you need immediate answers your mind is without protection.

The user may trade mental stress for bonus on a roll at a rate of +5 per stress, up to the limit that can be absorbed by their stress track and available Consequences. The maluses from Mental Consequences do not affect them until after the scene ends. Regardless of how large a bonus they gained, after the scene ends the user takes 6 mental stress.
 
Adept_Woodwright said:
Also - Holy Shit, Keiko takes 6 social stress every time she uses Frozen Skein to (quickly) analyze a plan? The hell have we been doing to her? That's a mild and moderate consequence every use.

I'm guessing we haven't exceeded the non-damaging time-limit yet?

The Best Laid Schemes
The user rapidly lowers themselves into the Frozen Skein and uses that analytical power to optimise their actions in real-time. This is extremely risky, and always carries consequences; the Mori Voice is (relatively) safe to touch if you can meditate your way into it and take your time with questions, but when you need immediate answers your mind is without protection.

The user may trade mental stress for bonus on a roll at a rate of +5 per stress, up to the limit that can be absorbed by their stress track and available Consequences. The maluses from Mental Consequences do not affect them until after the scene ends. Regardless of how large a bonus they gained, after the scene ends the user takes 6 mental stress.
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No no, analysing a plan doesn't cause stress. The stress comes from if she uses it to boost her skills. Analysis is free (although requires a calm setting where she can meditate).
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Those of us in the shadow cabal discord group were just discussing Hazou's future social growth, and I thought I'd summarize it here for more discussion.

Hazou's current three-stat social build (Deceit, Empathy, Resolve) is alright, but doesn't really suit Hazou well. In particular, his earnest sincerity runs totally counter to a Deceit focus and he's lacking any 'leadership' stats like Rapport or Presence. Narratively, this shapes Hazou for a future where he's got all these skills for lying that he never uses and meanwhile his skills as a 'natural leader' stagnate since he has trouble getting people go along with him unless they're already so inclined.

Under the proposed social stats system, we have two ways to change Hazou's build to get a leadership stat. We can switch out Empathy for Presence, or we can switch out Deceit for Rapport. Neither of those look good. We need Empathy because a lack of it is at the heart of a lot of Hazou's character troubles right now, and we can't dump Deceit because we need it for Roki.

But what if we could dump Roki and switch to another fighting style? You need a 'unique advantage' in order to get one, and Roki is built on using the Iron Nerve to help us make feints. If nothing else, we could take after Akane and develop a Physique-based fighting style leveraging our Pangolin Training Jutsu as our unique advantage (addendum: if we asked Akane about this right now it'd be heckin awkward but we're in no rush. We can wait a year and copy her fighting style once things have settled down between us), but we might have other options too. An Empathy-based fighting style based around the Iron Nerve might be workable, and we may be able to copy Kagome's Explosion Master fighting style too, but the important part is that we have options.

So the question is this: is it worth it to change our fighting style and dump Deceit? We'd leave Deceit higher leveled than the average dump stat, but I don't think we should underestimate the power of an Empathy/Rapport combo for connecting to people and inspiring them to follow you. It also leaves us with a three-stat social build that covers all our bases, so beyond the XP sunk into Roki we don't hit any inefficiencies. Any thoughts?
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I'm on board.

We have in character reasons to do so and the means to get it done. I was just about to propose mining the konoha academy Taijutsu and other fire country generic styles. Maybe we can get like a mini-tournament going with some clanless genin to practice with us as well.

I wonder if we could make it a mission?
 
Despite the massive XP waste running completely contrary to my last few hours of displayed priorities in this thread, I should state that I'm one of the people on discord who pushed for this.
 
Of note: even if we commit to changing away from Roki and Deceit, we have nothing to lose by sticking with Roki and Deceit until the stat and style we're switching to become superior. Our Deceit is 24 and we've pretty much always won Roki, so it'll take a while before Roki stops being useful.

Physique passively levels itself for us thanks to the Pangolin Conditioning Jutsu so in the fullness of time will easily surpass our Deceit score, but our enemies will level Physique as well, so we may not have a comparative advantage if we switched to a Physique fighting style after our Physique exceeds our Deceit.

Similar considerations affect other fighting styles we might adopt, so I'd like to stress that it's perfectly okay for us to stop putting any XP into Deceit but still use it for our Fighting Style for the foreseeable future.
 
MadScientist said:
Despite the massive XP waste running completely contrary to my last few hours of displayed priorities in this thread, I should state that I'm one of the people on discord who pushed for this.
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Here's an easy explanation for why replacing Deceit with Empathy for a Roki-type fighting style works: Deceit may be opposed by either Deceit or Empathy.
 
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