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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Radvic said:
I feel like this is true of many irl laws.
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Yeah, fair enough. Though there usually is more context to why they're stupid.

There's usually somebody a law made sense for, a model where it made sense, or some history that explains how the stupid thing happened.

For this, I'm drawing a blank on how it got this way. The best result I can get is they have fundamentally wrong models of economics, but I can't think of a vaguely sensible sounding wrong model that this would make sense under.

Mind, this is more likely a lack of imagination on my part than anything else, or maybe my standard for "sensible sounding" is too high. But please, someone throw me a bone, how could this rule have happened?
 
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Jello_Raptor said:
@eaglejarl, @OliWhail , @Velorien:

I still think the "50% of seals must be sold at market rate" clause in the rules should also specify that the tower has right of first refusal for those fixed rate sales.

This allows them to have much finer control over their supply of seals, allowing them to stock up in more predictable ways. Otherwise, what is the point of the 50% threshold? They're just more likely to have scalpers that resell seals if there's a mismatch between the fixed rate and what the market can actually bear.

The right of first refusal would create a known fixed price supply that Leaf can use in times of war without allowing sealmasters to raise rates due to demand. Hell, leaf can even just buy up those seals and resell them at a slightly higher price putting an artificial price ceiling onto the whole thing.

I just have no idea how this isn't purely nonsensical as written, and right of first refusal is the simplest good I can think of.

Admittedly I think the more "rational" policy for the tower is right of first refusal on all seals at market rate, but can see how that would be negotiated down to the 50% role since it strips so much power from sealmasters.
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Is "this is some sort of stupid political compromise between Ninja and egotistical rich civilians." not good enough rationale?
 
eaglejarl said:
Cool, glad we got sorted.

For the sake of pedantry, I will note that being taxed 40 hours (1 work week) per month (~4 work weeks) is a 25% tax rate. Most people in the USA pay that or more.
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Oh, sure, but sealmasters don't necessarily do sealing all of the time, as I've mentioned. The amount that labor is worth isn't necessarily equal. Clan Sealmaster X might spend 20 hours a week sealing, and the rest of his work week dealing with political bullshit that doesn't directly pay him anything, as an example. Or maybe Sealmaster Y has had a bad month in terms of his health, and has been too sick for most of it to spend much time making seals, but still has to put in his 40 hours of work making them if he doesn't want ninja breathing down his neck to ask where the hell his taxes are.

And perception of fairness matters a lot with respect to how people view taxes. A flat 25% tax on income you actually end up making can seem fair, especially if everyone else is taxed at the same rate, because you're only being taxed on what you actually make, so if you've had a bad month or have had lots of other demands on your time then you're not relatively worse off than anyone else. Being asked to spend 40 hours (or likely more, since most people don't have the Iron Nerve) making explosive tags for no pay, with your own materials (paper and ink aren't free), no matter what your circumstances in the given month are... well, it could be seen as burdensome. Especially in light of the fact that this is a special tax that only applies to sealmasters and nobody else.
 
MMKII said:
Is "this is some sort of stupid political compromise between Ninja and egotistical rich civilians." not good enough rationale?
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Not quite, like what are the options they're compromising between? The tower has all the power on this particular issue, civies don't really care about it either. Seals are too ninja gated to matter much to civilians.

We intend to change that, but for now it's true.

The two parties that really have tension over this is the tower and independent sealmasters.

Edit: The tower wants seals, sealmasters want money. But this compromise doesn't make much sense. The 50% threshold is fine, the fixed price is fine, but adding a right of first refusal would have very high value to the tower, and almost no cost to the sealmasters. So not having the right just leaves value on the table.

It doesn't match the usual smell test of "is this vaguely Pareto optimal?" It shouldn't be too easy for one side to extract more value without cost to the other side.
 
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Wow. Miss a day, miss a lot.

I'm moving to a new state with my wife/child while trying to outrun a hurricane... So my spoons are likely to be limited.

Can we add the truck scroll pitch to the plan? Also, you could just sell the storage seals at auction without doing anything complicated.

Doing the truck scroll proposal would have most merchants immediately looking to get their own truck scrolls or start bidding on the system. If you modify my proposal so that the clan gets a % of the slot bid funds as well as the government, then that neatly solves the money issue while still providing all of the benefits I already pointed out (see Google doc in sig).
 
Jello_Raptor said:
Not quite, like what are the options they're compromising between? The tower has all the power on this particular issue, civies don't really care about it either. Seals are too ninja gated to matter much to civilians
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The problem with what youre saying is that youre approaching this from a cost benefit analysis standpoint. In essence:

You think this policy was brought about because both sides had an actual stake in the issue and tried to work something mutually beneficial out, and not just as spiteful political dickwaving?

*stares at current Earth*

...

...Is this somehow unreasonable?
 
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MMKII said:
The problem with what youre saying is that youre approaching this from a cost benefit analysis standpoint. In essence:

You think this policy was brought about because both sides had an actual stake im the issue and tried to work something mutually beneficial out, and not just as spiteful political dickwaving?

*stares at current Earth*

...

...Is this somehow unreasonable?
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It's just, why pick this hill to die on in particular? It's so pointless, and the political operators so far seem capable of actually advancing their goals.

Also, even spiteful political dickwaving is usually a signaling mechanism, it doesn't make sense to do it the same way if you are signaling to peers (as in a dictatorship) as it does to if you're signaling to hoi polloi.

Edit: This would only make sense as a power move, but it's the party without power doing it. Just, how?
 
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charlesrwest said:
Can we add the truck scroll pitch to the plan?
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You have a kind of unique idea here and are obviously rather invested in it, but tbh it's not very workable at present, and is nowhere near close to being a priority in our present situation. Give it a few updates, and I'm sure we'll be looking into ways to improve our economic standing.
 
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Jello_Raptor said:
Not quite, like what are the options they're compromising between? The tower has all the power on this particular issue, civies don't really care about it either. Seals are too ninja gated to matter much to civilians.

We intend to change that, but for now it's true.

The two parties that really have tension over this is the tower and independent sealmasters.
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Ok, so then between the tower and the sealmasters, is "This is a stupid political compromise which is also relatively easily enforced between the tower and independent sealmasters" a sufficient reason?


Also, one comment which is likely relevant to this and other economic things in the coming updates: I'm pretty sure bookkeeping is a lot harder in MfD than IRL, which likely plays a part in them having less advanced economic concepts. Having things be simpler is almost certainly better.
 
Radvic said:
Ok, so then between the tower and the sealmasters, is "This is a stupid political compromise which is also relatively easily enforced between the tower and independent sealmasters" a sufficient reason?


Also, one comment which is likely relevant to this and other economic things in the coming updates: I'm pretty sure bookkeeping is a lot harder in MfD than IRL, which likely plays a part in them having less advanced economic concepts. Having things be simpler is almost certainly better.
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But then the 50% rule is unenforceable as it. Right of first refusal would become its own accounting mechanism for the tower, since it requires people submitting counts of seals so the tower can choose whether to buy them.

The obvious stable equilibria are no 50% rule and price controls on all sold seals, or right of first refusal.

Edit: this is an environment where unenforceable laws fundamentally undermine the credibility of the ruling power. The more centralized the power, the less laws act as a standard for good behaviour and the more they act as a causus belli for punitive action.
 
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Jello_Raptor said:
But then the 50% rule is unenforceable as it. Right of first refusal becomes it's own accounting mechanism for the tower.

The obvious stable equilibria are no 50% rule and price controls on all sold seals, or right of first refusal.

Edit: this is an environment where unenforceable laws fundamentally undermine the credibility of the ruling power. The more centralized the power, the less laws act as a standard for good behaviour and the more they act as a causus belli for punitive action.
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Your argument towards why its broken now is that someone can just scalp on all the tower rate seals each month and resell half of them later at a higher price?

I can think of one way to absolutely convince the QMs your point is valid:

Ok, lets do it.
 
Jutsu ideas:

Earth Fist:
  • You punch or kick the ground, and nearby an arm of rock erupts out of the ground/stone wall, with the same force as the punch.
  • Mechanically, this would allow for a ranged taijutsu roll. You roll MIN(Taijutsu,Jutsu*2)
  • There must be a path of rock or dirt that you know between you and the target.
    • You don't need line of sight. This works really well with living roots + HLAM.
Earth Armor:
  • You surround yourself with dirt and rocks, creating a suit of armor. Movement becomes nearly impossible, but you can shrug off hits that would have pulped you before.
  • -Jutsu level to physical skills while active. You can redirect physical stress to the armor equal to twice the aspect bonus of the jutsu, before the jutsu breaks.
    • Note this means it is net negative to use this armor in a straight up fight.
Suspended Dust
  • You stomp on the ground, raising a cloud of dust obscuring vision, which you then hold in place, making it hard to move or shoot through.
  • Radius of $ASPECT BONUS zones. Gives a penalty equal to its aspect bonus to all athletics rolls to get through the affected zones, and all ranged attacks shooting through affected zones.
 
MMKII said:
Your argument towards why its broken now is that someone can just scalp on all the tower rate seals each month and resell half of them later at a higher price?

I can think of one way to absolutely convince the QMs your point is valid:

Ok, lets do it.
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The other half is that the tower gets nothing out of the compromise, and a tiny change would make it a really useful safety net for the tower in times of war.
 
Jello_Raptor said:
The other half is that the tower gets nothing out of the compromise, and a tiny change would make it a really useful safety net for the tower in times of war.
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Quite right...

Ah, what was that quote again...


"Be the change you wish to see in the world."

Im all on board, you have just made my bullshit Mercantilism Get Rich Quick Schemes that much easier
 
charlesrwest said:
Wow. Miss a day, miss a lot.

I'm moving to a new state with my wife/child while trying to outrun a hurricane... So my spoons are likely to be limited.

Can we add the truck scroll pitch to the plan? Also, you could just sell the storage seals at auction without doing anything complicated.

Doing the truck scroll proposal would have most merchants immediately looking to get their own truck scrolls or start bidding on the system. If you modify my proposal so that the clan gets a % of the slot bid funds as well as the government, then that neatly solves the money issue while still providing all of the benefits I already pointed out (see Google doc in sig).
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This plan in particular is pretty focused on the Pangolin talk with the rest of the Goketsu. There's only a little on-screen stuff apart from it and with Velorien being low on spoons these days if we tried to add anything more he'd likely have to omit part of the plan (that he has the spoons for the whole Pangolin talk is a bit of an assumption to begin with, it could become a pretty big thing).

That said, we aren't running on much of a time limit for getting stuff done because whenever we're done all the pressing stuff we can just training montage to the end of the month. Even if we can't fit in the truck scroll idea this update or next, we won't go ahead with the rest of the month without having our ducks in a row.
 
MMKII said:
Quite right...

Ah, what was that quote again...


"Be the change you wish to see in the world."

Im all on board, you have just made my bullshit Mercantilism Get Rich Quick Schemes that much easier
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Like if this isn't the case, I'd love to ask Jiraiya to push for the change. It's a cheap way to increase stability of his reign and make money
 
Have we seen the market rates for any of the seals yet? I doubt it'll matter for this update, but it might for the next.
 
Veedrac said:
@eaglejarl Can you confirm whether drawing seals can be sped up, as per Cariyaga's post?
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We still don't have a definitive answer, but right at the moment my Magic 8-ball says "signs point to no".


Jello_Raptor said:
Not quite, like what are the options they're compromising between? The tower has all the power on this particular issue, civies don't really care about it either. Seals are too ninja gated to matter much to civilians.
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Okay, here's an example. Not necessarily what happened, but a possibility.

Clan #1: We want control of the glass trade to River.

Hokage: Get stuffed.

Clan #2: We want to sell whatever seals we want at any price we want.

Hokage: Hell no. Seals are way too dangerous to be unregulated, and way too important to the military for us to not get a steady supply. Also we need to repair the roof at the Academy, so I'm levying a special tax. Also also, all explosive seals can only be sold to the Tower, at a rate we specify.

Clan #2: We are not paying any more tax unless we get our way on seals.

Clan #1: Hey, we'll back you on the seals thing if you back us on the River thing.

Hokage: Neither of those things is happening, gentlemen.

Clan #2: Yeah, I'm down with backing you on the River/seals agreement.

Hokage: Okay, Clan #1, I won't give you control of the glass trade, but I'll give you a 15% tax break on the luxury goods tax. In exchange, you agree to vote that all sealmasters can sell only to the Tower.

Clan #2: Hey, hang on! We had a deal, Clan #1. Break it and we'll never deal with you again.

Clan #1: I don't know, this tax break thing is sounding pretty good... Tell you what. How about you guys can sell as many seals as you want, but half of whatever you sell has to go to the Tower?

Hokage: No way. If they're allowed to set their own prices then they'll use that as leverage every time there's an important vote.

Clan #2: How about if we can sell as much as we want at any price we want, but half of it has to go to the Tower and you get a 10% discount from market rate?

Hokage: Don't make me laugh.

Clan #2: 25%?

Hokage: 50%

Clan #2: Done!

charlesrwest said:
I'm moving to a new state with my wife/child while trying to outrun a hurricane... So my spoons are likely to be limited.
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Yow! Safe travels to you. I hope you get there okay.
 
eaglejarl said:
Cool, glad we got sorted.

For the sake of pedantry, I will note that being taxed 40 hours (1 work week) per month (~4 work weeks) is a 25% tax rate. Most people in the USA pay that or more.
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As a suggestion, why not make the seals tax a percentage of all seals sold in the market? Ex: every time a transaction occurs over seals, 20% of the seals are donated to the Tower. It prevents discouraging Sealmasters from being Sealmasters, which is especially important for "Junior" Sealmasters that may endanger themselves trying to hit their monthly quota early in their career. It prevents a take-off point where 100% of profits go back to the Sealmaster once they've paid off their monthly tax. It also depresses the Seal economy (the more transactions a bag of Seals goes through, the more skimmed off the top for the Tower since it happens every transaction). This encourages accumulation of Seals by large spenders (aka Clans) which fits the current economic context of Clan Ninja vs. Clan-less Ninja

Could also do something such as X% when a Sealmaster sells into the market, Y% for all subsequent transactions involving a seal. Adjust X and Y to control the market as desired, could even adjust those percentages as needs demand (ex: war, etc.)

Edit: which I guess you partially just proposed so it seems I was ninja'd
 
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@eaglejarl

So, in actuality despite the relative plausability of how this simple and spoon friendly arrangement could have come about, you may want to listen to Jello~

Fair warning: When we come through with a game theoretic stategy to crash the explosives tag market into the ground and subsequently price gouge everyone after we control the market, *I* certainly wont be fielding that aspirin bill.

(And by "when we come through with" I mean "get Hazou to do it")

faflec said:
Why explosives and storage seals? Why not make Goo Bomb seal blanks for the tournament or something similar?
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Because we need to remove ourselves from debt and those can easily be sold now?

>using Goo Bombs in the tournament

Well, this is obviously always on the table but do we want to do this? The ~3 times that warnings about Jiraiyas seals being conflated with the source of our competence seem to point to "No" IMO.

Can we try not to Jiraiyas Sealing our way to victory? I dont think it will matter.
 
faflec said:
Why explosives and storage seals? Why not make Goo Bomb seal blanks for the tournament or something similar?
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Explosives and storage seals are common and useful. In particular, we need some explosive seals for the tax. I think we can get somewhere with selling storage seals for dirt cheap to people we want to buy political favor wi clanless ninja as well.

I think we're best off not using goo bombs in the tournament, though I'll agree that we should always carry some around with us. No sense being unprepared in case of trouble.

In fact, it may be worthwhile to update our inventory with what we want to carry around Leaf. Likely, it's got a slightly different optima than the tournament (especially since we aren't not allowed to walk around with SkyWalkers and SkyTowers), and I'm sure the QMs would appreciate having a written "here's our inventory" rather than "Yeah, we'd totally be running around with those seals."
 
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