Point. Well then... "seals that Jiraiya might reasonably have created and not broken the setting with himself".
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Conveniently enough, Jiraiya already had a history of overlooking the obvious-but-lateral sealing innovations, though.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Go for it, with the sole proviso that anything y'all make is fair game for us to use. That means some of it will (probably) be in Jiraiya's hands but some of it might be in the enemies' hands.
Not worth it then. Using the thread's obsessive idea generation to strengthen our enemies seems to be the very definition of shooting ourselves in the foot.
If they're in an enemy's hands, they can be stolen, reverse-engineered, and duplicated... probably for still less effort than trying to research completely new branches of sealing from scratch.
- Location
- Yes.
Couldn't we just make the seals require a Leaf-only seal/jutsu to be broken?
I think doing that would just make sure that it's not Jiraiya who made them. And presumably they'd still be useful.
Only if we know who has them. If we make up seal X because we want it, and we know it didn't go to Jiraiya because we asked him and he said he doesn't have it... what do we do next? Maybe it went to some random sealmaster in Vegetable. Maybe to Hidden Cloud. Maybe the Watchers have it. We don't know where to start looking.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Can we have an idea of what seals we know he specializes in?
e:
Ones we know of: Elemental Barrier techniques, esoteric wind seals (maybe he has a +Athletics seal?)...
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Canonically he understands the jinchuuiki seals enough to at least check them. Then you look at type of seals his student specialized in. Then you look at the types of seals he's given Hazou.
Basically Jiraiya seems to like/understand manipulation of forces and objects. He knows how (or at least somewhat understands) how to use seals to bind giant chakra monsters... I wouldn't be surprised if he has a variation that 'seals' a ninja's chakra system to some low level that allows life but prevents them from using their chakra-based abilities. Chakra storage seals may be a no-no, but no one ever said anything about chakra suppression seals.
I also wouldn't be surprised if he's experimented with seals that move around heat and light in interesting ways, maybe including something that can absorb elemental jutsu.
He doesn't seem to depend directly on seals in combat like Kagome does. Rather, he prefers to create seals that do utility type stuff.
- Location
- Yes.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah, I wasn't sure but I doubted you'd do it if it wasn't a guaranteed win. I figured I had to say something, though -- people got salty when I used some seals that looked vaguely like ones that had been discussed in the thread, and I'm not having that again.
He's seen it, so he can draw the blank. He can't infuse it without doing the research, though.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Hm, so: Absorb Heat seal (reduces effectiveness of fire jutsu. Also makes one cold.), Expel Air seal (for janky movement)...
- Location
- Potato land
Chakra suppression seals of some kind sound like a necessary requirement of keeping sufficiently bullshit ninja contained (for imprisonment, if nothing else), so I wouldn't be surprised if villages already have them. Would require respectable clearance to learn, I imagine.
- Location
- Yes.
That's perfect, thanks.
I propose that our next major research project be on learning the Night Light seal, and making variations on it. The Night Light seal burns up a fuckton of chakra, and since Hazou doesn't think it's a seal failure waiting to happen I will assume that it just dumps the extra chakra safely into the environment or something. If we can figure out a way to make it continuously do the "remove chakra" component instead of having it be a one-time thing when activated, we could make a chakra drainage seal. Useful for fighting high-chakra enemies, can probably be stacked, and further modifications can make it a useful imprisonment tool if we can make it not drain chakra to zero.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Casino seals first.
- Location
- Yes.
Those aren't...those aren't what I would call major research projects. IIRC casino seals take like...a month? Two?
Making seals that mimic part of Vampiric Dew, and can be used to effectively subdue prisoners...that's gonna take a while.
Edit: Come to think of it, does Jiraiya have his own flashbangs? I can't imagine that he doesn't...
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Casino seals are as hard as storage seals by word of QM.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Heat Vampire Seal
This seal draws heat from the area it's facing over the next few seconds. It lasts between 2 and 5 rounds, and reduces the effectiveness of katon (or other fire based glances at stupid boxes) techniques techniques by (QMs choose one) [Sealmaster's Sealing Aspect bonus, user's Athletics Aspect bonus, flat value (4-ish)].
Momentum Gust Seal
This seal expels a burst of (chakra-)air, pushing the user uncontrollably away from the direction it's facing. This seal may be used reactively, and provides a bonus of (QM's choice) [Sealmaster's Sealing Aspect Bonus, User's Athletics Aspect Bonus, flat bonus] to Athletics to dodge attacks that round (or the next round if it is not the user's turn), and a penalty of 1/2 that to attacks, representing the difficulty stabilizing oneself.
Couple seal ideas to start.
@MadScientist I would suggest reconsidering. While it will certainly provide our opponents utility if some of these go to them, it's worth considering that this will also open up research paths for us.
This seal draws heat from the area it's facing over the next few seconds. It lasts between 2 and 5 rounds, and reduces the effectiveness of katon (or other fire based glances at stupid boxes) techniques techniques by (QMs choose one) [Sealmaster's Sealing Aspect bonus, user's Athletics Aspect bonus, flat value (4-ish)].
Momentum Gust Seal
This seal expels a burst of (chakra-)air, pushing the user uncontrollably away from the direction it's facing. This seal may be used reactively, and provides a bonus of (QM's choice) [Sealmaster's Sealing Aspect Bonus, User's Athletics Aspect Bonus, flat bonus] to Athletics to dodge attacks that round (or the next round if it is not the user's turn), and a penalty of 1/2 that to attacks, representing the difficulty stabilizing oneself.
Couple seal ideas to start.
@MadScientist I would suggest reconsidering. While it will certainly provide our opponents utility if some of these go to them, it's worth considering that this will also open up research paths for us.
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
In point of order: quite old WoQM. I would suggest treating it as evidence rather than conclusive proof.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Is the basic (nonelemental) clone a clone technique in the style of the others? That is to say, does it pop when you poke it? I'd assume not given how Shikamaru uses it.
This implies that ninjutsu can be used to create illusory terrain, meaning it's not the sole province of genjutsu.
On which note:
Illusory Wall Seal
This (single) seal creates an illusory wall of what appears to be red granite that ignores the terrain surrounding it just as the basic Clone technique does. Similarly, it does not cast a shadow, though a clever user can find ways to use that property to their advantage.
This seal has a few variants for other material types -- it is an easier seal to research.
---
This one is particularly useful, to be quite honest. Making others think they're in a genjutsu that requires additional chakra to break out of would be useful -- and given that we're the students of Inoue Mari, it's even quite possible that this is the case. That's setting aside its use in blocking sight, of course.
---
Flash Seal
This seal emits a sharp, blinding burst of light. Those in melee with the target get the Aspect [Temporarily Blind] for a number of rounds determined by a SDC of the higher of their Physique or Resolve against 4, as well as a -Aspect Bonus penalty to all rolls.
Base duration: 2 turns + the difference between their SDC and 4. If less than 1, aspect is instead [Dazed] and provides a -1/2 Aspect Bonus penalty for one turn.
[Note: Not too sure about the mechanics for this one. But dunno what else would be appropriate to roll against for this. Suggestions appreciated.]
Ventriloquism Seal
Paired seal that transmits sound from one to the other. They must remain stationary, though there is a delay on their use activation (so enterprising ninja can use them on thrown weapons to psyche enemies out). Distance limit of 20 meters -- the farther the seals
There is a variant that transmits sound in both directions.
No I'm totally not going through the d20SRD why do you ask?
e: Some more:as I look through the Spell Compendium
Amaneunsis Seal
Copies [the specific formulation of black ink targetted by the seal] from the paper it is placed against to the back of the seal. It cannot copy infused seals, and non-infused sealcraft copied as such will cause a sealing failure if an infusion is attempted (as the brushtrokes were not copied, merely the ink). So will the seal it was copied from.
This implies that ninjutsu can be used to create illusory terrain, meaning it's not the sole province of genjutsu.
On which note:
Illusory Wall Seal
This (single) seal creates an illusory wall of what appears to be red granite that ignores the terrain surrounding it just as the basic Clone technique does. Similarly, it does not cast a shadow, though a clever user can find ways to use that property to their advantage.
This seal has a few variants for other material types -- it is an easier seal to research.
---
This one is particularly useful, to be quite honest. Making others think they're in a genjutsu that requires additional chakra to break out of would be useful -- and given that we're the students of Inoue Mari, it's even quite possible that this is the case. That's setting aside its use in blocking sight, of course.
---
Flash Seal
This seal emits a sharp, blinding burst of light. Those in melee with the target get the Aspect [Temporarily Blind] for a number of rounds determined by a SDC of the higher of their Physique or Resolve against 4, as well as a -Aspect Bonus penalty to all rolls.
Base duration: 2 turns + the difference between their SDC and 4. If less than 1, aspect is instead [Dazed] and provides a -1/2 Aspect Bonus penalty for one turn.
[Note: Not too sure about the mechanics for this one. But dunno what else would be appropriate to roll against for this. Suggestions appreciated.]
Ventriloquism Seal
Paired seal that transmits sound from one to the other. They must remain stationary, though there is a delay on their use activation (so enterprising ninja can use them on thrown weapons to psyche enemies out). Distance limit of 20 meters -- the farther the seals
There is a variant that transmits sound in both directions.
e: Some more:
Amaneunsis Seal
Copies [the specific formulation of black ink targetted by the seal] from the paper it is placed against to the back of the seal. It cannot copy infused seals, and non-infused sealcraft copied as such will cause a sealing failure if an infusion is attempted (as the brushtrokes were not copied, merely the ink). So will the seal it was copied from.
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Interlude (AU): The Other Member of the Three
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
It was another ordinary day at Research Facility 13. Unnatural screams echoed in the distance, the pipes overhead hissed and bubbled as hazardous substances sped down them to parts preferably unknown, and Hazō sat at a table sipping herbal tea as he idly debated philosophy with his family.
"On the contrary," Keiko said, "I think it is clear that when the Mizukage refers to 'a life lived with honour', he is referring to adherence to a rigid code of loyalty, incorporating both submission to authority and the avoidance of all forms of betrayal. You will note the reference to punishment, which implies the requirement of meeting defined external expectations."
Hazō shook his head as he put down his cup. "You're only saying that because the same chapter talks about traitors as being the most dishonourable members of any human society. But in context, honour has a broader meaning. It's about how you should conduct your life as a person, both towards other people and in terms of your own thoughts and feelings. Punishment in this case is inherent to the nature of the crime—living dishonourably just has predictable negative effects."
"That's a definition so broad as to be useless. My Vision was intended to be a guide to the specifics of life as a citizen in the Mizukage's Mist, not a vague meditation on ethics."
"You can't be serious," Hazō objected. "Don't you remember what he says in the third section of Chapter 2, in the discussion of proper treatment of one's fellow man? There's a universalisable moral imperative here, not just a narrowly-defined ideology."
"Children," Orochimaru chuckled drily, "what have I told you about taking ethics too seriously? If you want to understand the Mizukage's thinking, you have to take a pragmatic perspective. What is his end goal, and in what ways does he wish to transform his readers in order to achieve it?"
Hazō reached for his teacup again, and found it empty. Orochimaru's unique herbal tea, ideal for relaxing the body and stimulating the mind, was a favourite of everyone on Team Singularity, and Orochimaru was always lamenting how quickly they went through his supplies. The outcast genius lamented a lot of things, few of them seriously. Back when they first joined him after fleeing the Swamp of Death, he'd seen them as little more than walking Bloodline Limits for research, but he'd soon warmed to the idea of assistants who not only shared his fascination with unlimited advancement of the human species but brought plenty of new ideas to the table, to say nothing of Mari-sensei's diplomatic capabilities (social skills not being Orochimaru's strongest point).
As for Hazō, he loved having a mentor who accepted the most extreme and dangerous research proposals for review without flinching, and those augmentations they'd all received over the years weren't half bad either. Meanwhile, Keiko delighted in the constant intellectual stimulation Orochimaru's work provided, and who'd have thought that Noburi would discover such a gift for medical experimentation within himself?
"Bitey," Hazō beckoned their servant of the day, "pour me more tea."
Orochimaru gave a disapproving hiss. "I told you, Hazō, never name your future dissection subjects. It is awkward for all concerned."
"That was Noburi," Hazō said. "He says it's easier to tell them apart that way than if you use a series of numbers. Besides, Bitey doesn't need dissecting. You said the seventh generation—"
But the chakra deathclaw's appendage shook a little as it lifted the teapot, sending tea all over the tablecloth.
"Never mind."
"My bad," Noburi called out, rising up the laboratory stairs. "I really thought we'd got the Iron Nerve properly integrated this time. Keiko gave the schematics the OK and everything."
"Noburi," Orochimaru said sharply, "what have I told you about leaving the labs without complete disinfection? Do you want to end up like my previous assistant?"
"Sorry, Stepfather," Noburi muttered as he retreated. "Save me some tea."
Orochimaru sighed. "That boy has survived longer than any other human ever to enter my workspace, but sometimes I fear it is through luck more than good judgement. Thank you for cleaning the table, Keiko."
"Not at all. It does seem I am partly to blame for the seventh generation's incompleteness. With the Chūnin Exams so close, we cannot afford another disaster like the fifth."
Hazō shuddered as he recalled the last hours of Research Facility 4.
"I just hope it's worth it," he said.
"It will be," Orochimaru said. "Once we brand all of the world's top genin with the self-replicating cursed seal you helped me design, all we will have to do is sit back and wait."
He looked at the chakra deathclaw. "Bitey," he said with distaste, "report to Dissection Subject Storage.
"Now, while we wait for Noburi, perhaps one of you could analyse the Mizukage's assertions on honour from a more goal-oriented perspective? I think it will offer you valuable insight on the subtleties of mental conditioning… which I imagine will come in useful very soon."
-o-
Apologies for delay and lack of canon update. The torch will have to be passed to @eaglejarl this week.
Tua
鸡肉面条汤
- Location
- شوربة الدجاج المعكرونة
This is just immensly quotable. So here is me, quoting it.
We should invent timeline portals so TU and TS can share notes.