Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- Yes.
Who?People forgetting the existence of Haru Yamamoto is going to be a running gag, isn't it?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Huh. I dunno about you guys but I'm feeling a little outclassed, at least if the stats are directly translated between the systems...
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This. You drew them in his style for him to infuse.
I'd really like some sort of answer please, potential implications for civilian industry are rather massive. Given our whole "uplift" goal, that's pretty important.
I'm not sure if you intend it as such, but when I read this what I hear is: "I have a secret plan that's going to be totally awesome and completely break the world but it depends on the QMs making a decision in a specific way, so I'm not going to say what the plan is until they publicly commit to a decision that I can them hold them to."
We'd prefer to avoid that sort of adversarial relationship since it's not going to do anything other than cause unhappiness later on. This is where The Golden Rule applies; the mechanics serve at the pleasure of the simulation, not the other way around, and if that means having to nerf or undo-by-retcon something when we realize that we made a mistake then that's what will happen. This cuts both ways -- on the downside, Radvic's substitution nukes were retconned away because we realized we'd made a mistake in our decision; his trick worked within the rules, but the world couldn't look like it did if his trick worked, so clearly the rules had to change. On the upside, the YouthSuit and BoomSquish incidents were both retconned because the players convinced us that we'd made a mistake in how the world had been simulated. If this secret plan of yours is another nifty trick that works because we didn't sufficiently analyze the implications of a ruling then it's just going to get retconned away, so it would be better to tell us up front so we can work with you on it.
We're happy to let you break the world if you come up with a way to do it that (a) is plausibly within Hazō's mental reach and (b) is not something that would likely have been stumbled on by anyone else in the thousand-ish years of the existence of the Elemental Nations. You (the players) did that when you created skywalkers and used them to buy your way into Leaf -- skywalkers rewrote the balance of power across the face of the continent, causing a chain of dominoes that are still in motion and might plausibly end up with the Lands of Water and Fire merging into a single nation. (De facto or de iure remains to be seen.) It also established a precedent that missing-nin can come in from the cold, which could be an even bigger change in the long term, depending on how it plays out.[1] (It could also cause WWIV, but that's a separate issue.) In short, we don't want to be TheNoFunGuys, we just want to make sure that things are fair for both the PCs and the world.
Anyway, if you want to lay out your idea we're happy to work with you. In-universe Hazō is not going to be able to get a precise measurement because:
(a) No one has ever needed to be really precise about it ("That looks right" is good enough to let the seals activate, so there's no reason to poke further) and,
(b) The EN's tools for measuring angles are very primitive.
[1] Yes, the story is that you were never missing-nin, but everyone in power considers that a polite and paper-thin fiction.
We're trying to translate the numbers directly across, yes. A few things to keep in mind, though:
- Doylist: I'm totally eyeballing these numbers and haven't actually run the math, nor have I calculated her actual XP total. Chalk this up to the 'the following is correct in general but maybe lacking in specific'.
- Watsonian: Hazō has spent a crazy amount of XP on Sealing, Akane on Mechanical Aptitude, Noburi on MedNin, etc. Sakura is very much a one-trick pony in a fight: she goes first, she dodges, she brainzaps, and she needs a teammate to deal the actual finisher. Everyone on Team Uplift is mostly self-sufficient and is suited for a variety of situations. If you guys get pushed out of your preferred engagement envelope you have some things to fall back on. If she does, she's toast.
Are there rules regarding adding or subtracting personality aspects? As opposed to renaming them keeping the same number, I mean.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Nope. Suggestions welcome.
The only thing that springs to mind is "when the QMs agree that it makes narrative sense".
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail does the Iron Nerve ability "Attempt to Verify Any Blank You are Capable of Drawing" still take the time a normal seal inspection takes, or is it as fast as learning the seal pattern would be? Ramifications including the ability to train civilians in calligraphy until they can draw Hazou-style explosive seals and, at the end of every day of work, quickly evaluating every seal blank and infusing the correctly-drawn ones.
Fundamentally, when trying to create a simple, elegant game, I feel that each subsystem needs to have a solid justification to exist - either because it's required to make the world fit together well, or it makes playing the game more interesting. Any skill should then exist for a reason - either because, simulationally, to have people be good or bad at that skill in particular matters, or because players will want to use it in particular to do stuff that's important for the game (Taijutsu is a good example of a very specific skill, while Athletics is a little more of a group of real-life skills that map well together for gameplay purposes, but they're both mechanically relevant and interesting to use as a player. Meanwhile, random example, D&D 3rd's "Use Rope" fails, because it's too niche to be balanced for gameplay purposes, and isn't particularly fun to interact with as a player).
Splitting up Craftsmanship, given the context of the game, feels a little like if you broke Athletics into Run, Dodge, and Jump - while these are different things that people in real life are differently good at, a) these skills aren't really equal under the system, b) a character who's good at one being good at them all feels reasonable, c) and the characters who've used them on-screen have been competent at multiple fields. Performance is in a similar boat - every character who has shown they're good at it has also been good at at least one other social skill, and its use is too niche to really justify it existing separately.
You've actually sold me on Calligraphy as a different skill from Sealing, because it's integrated into the Sealcrafting subsystem in a way we can interact with, make mechanical decisions based on, etc, and the players are very invested in using the Sealcrafting subsystem.
I would also throw out, based on earlier discussion, the idea of grouping Jutsu into categories of some kind, because I think that does the best job of balancing them against the pure combat abilites - otherwise, mechanically, there's no incentive to learn more than one attack Jutsu, but if "Water Jutsu" is a skill (as opposed to Water Whip, Water Bullet, etc) that seems fair across from "Punching" "Throwing" etc. Then jutsu are generally more powerful, but always require Chakra in a way mundane attacks don't. Heck, "Combat Jutsu" would probably be fine as a skill unto itself.
Here's some ideas that I'm variably sure about, but seem worth bringing up for discussion:
Timing options for Jutsu: Instant (happens briefly and is done, may create something long-lasting: Grand Fireball Jutsu, MEW [from true earth]), Combat (duration measured in seconds: Lightning Armour), Scene (duration measured in minutes: Elemental Clones), Indefinite (duration possibly measured in hours, usually based on Chakra spent: Summoning). Blasting Jutsu can't be maintained, though many will apply Aspects to the scene (such as On Fire) or otherwise reshape the terrain; personal Jutsu will last Combat to Scene (anything like Water Whip, which essentially gives you a piece of superiour equipment); only Jutsu that summon or create something independent from you can be Indefinite (preventing the long-term super-buffs).
Similar to what you said about Chakra Regeneration, I'm pretty sure you're not going to count the seconds a jutsu's active for when writing a scene; the important distinction will be "happens and is done", "lasts for a fight", "lasts for a little while", and "lasts for a long time". Also, slotting MEW-ish effects into Instant makes it easier to make them cheap, which I think is correct for how difficult they are to use in-world and how powerful they are as a mechanic (and reflects that they aren't persistent effects renewed by Chakra, but actually new solid objects in the world; like how in D&D you can dispel a Wall of Fire, because it's a spell effect that can be removed, but not a Wall of Stone, because it's actually just a bunch of new rock sitting on the ground).
Declare previous stuff regarding Chakra Boost was more metaphorical, refers to an adrenaline-like rush being a ninja in combat brings, and toss it as a distinctive mechanic.
Bring in the Fate Skill Columns in the sense of the Scaled-Down Checks - ie, can only have at many skills in the 30s as you have in the 20s, as many in the 20s as you have in the 10s, etc. You'd probably have to reduce the XP multiplier, so you're not getting too badly double-dinged on high skills.
Balance attack Jutsu across from appropriately Chakra Boosted mundane attacks, at least for lower-level ones - the world's seems to be set up so that basic to mid-level attack Jutsu are approximately equally useful as a skilled Taijutsu user, and who uses which is mostly based on personal talent and preference.
- Location
- uk
Hm, to be honest I would have expected it to go something like: genin are fairly balanced across mobility/survival skills, and act almost exclusively as scouts, handymen, luggage carriers, couriers etc; chuunin is where some specialisation (i.e. actual significant attack power) starts to show, special jounin (is that a thing?) is basically almost-jounin-level in the chosen attack skill but weak balance, and jounin is fairly balanced again.
In that my mental model was that our characters were actually significantly ahead of the curve in specialisation, comparable to other clan heirs / top-of-class geniuses. Perhaps that's the kind of genin you meant?
Or are the run-of-the-mill genin, the ones that take 5-10 years to hit chuunin (if they live that long), also fairly specialised?
Mechanically I was imagining a context where you have to hit a skill floor in survival / awareness / mobility etc. so that you can handle (run away from) non-ninja threats: environment, run away from wildlife/bandits, etc. At that point you can start actually contributing to day-to-day missions. But, baring exceptional circumstances like a clan support or genius-level aptitude to some particular set of skills, it doesn't make sense to start specialising before you hit that floor - all the effort spent on teaching you specialised knowledge is wasted when you die because you didn't have your basics.
Is this aligned with your model?
ETA: also, a 'standard' way to avoid over-specialisation without modifying ability costs is to make adversaries capable of choosing your defence skill (at a cost). For example, a ninjutsu that creates an explosion that is effectively too big/fast to dodge, and thus has to be defended with endurance; but is comparatively weaker. Existence of such attacks would force anyone to have at least a basic level in all possible defence skills, lest they get taken out by a random genin with the right jutsu.
I don't think the system currently supports something like this, but it might be worth considering. Something like 'adaptable' on a jutsu where you can force the target to defend with a particular skill against a reduced offensive skill (how much it is reduced should be related to how many possible specific skills you can target; something like 1/(n+1) where n is the number of targettable abilities ?).
This kind of forcing manoeuvre should probably require an aspect being placed on the target first, effectively saying that you have figured their weakness out. And now you actually also need some social skills like deception / investigation to figure out mid-combat whether the opponent is concealing an embarrasing lack of points in might/stealth/survival/alertness/taijutsu - or conceal your own weakness - so that you can exploit it.
Last edited:
ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
- Location
- Seattle, WA
I'm not sure if you are taking suggestions on other people's charter sheets, but as someone who has been playing Fate a while, some of these aspects are good, but some seem to narrative but not useful. Polishing aspects is important for major characters.
I really like "A Team Leader Is You...Except Subtle" and "Words Cut Deeper than Kunai"
because even without knowing the backstory, it is clear when they are useful invokes, and it is clear that there are useful situations you would want to invoke them during.
"Struggling to Find My Place", and "Chunin Exam Failure" are both the reverse of that.
Struggling to Find My Place is also implied a bit in I'm not the load. Something like "Less Power, More Control" gets at her special knack, and is a good aspect for someone focused on creating advantages for others to use.
For Chunin Exam Failure, it is just her past history. To me, a better aspect would reflect the why in a character useful and relevant way such as "Overlooked and Underestimated" or "Preparation and knowledge win battles but not glory".
Raxner
The most dangerous man in an empty room
- Location
- Israel
No, not really. We don't care about uplift for doing it; just for talking about it and looking good.I'd really like some sort of answer please
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I don't exactly think that's a fair assertion at all: Personally, I'm scared for the lives of Hazou and his friends on every mission they go out on, and I'm certain that at least a few of the regulars feel the same.
In spite of that I've publically precommitted to spend a minimum of ten percent of our money or time toward that goal.
Raxner
The most dangerous man in an empty room
- Location
- Israel
Very nice...and what have Hazo and Co actually done, exactly?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
They're currently helping arrange for peace between their country of origin and adoption which would spare countless civilian lives directly (collateral damage or intentional targetting of infrastructure) and indirectly (through missions to clear out chakra beasts that would go undone due to a war footing).
If you have any better suggestions for what to do with their time, you're welcome to share.
But as much as it may feel all warm and fuzzy to do so, it is a waste of time (e: and civilian lives) for Hazou to directly build walls when he could, oh, I don't know, teach the heir to one of the major clans of Konoha to value civilian lives more (Yamanaka Ino), develop seals that could benefit civilians (water purification seals), or do as he can to help broker peace between nations that would otherwise war.
Last edited:
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The distinction there is that most people can only attempt to verify blanks for seals that they are familiar with -- i.e., ones that they are theoretically able to infuse. Hazō can verify blanks (e.g.) for the casino seals, which he still has not researched. Kagome could not do that.
And yes, it takes the same amount of time for him as anyone else.
I don't have time to respond to this as thoroughly as it deserves, and it will require significant QM discussion before we can, but I wanted to be sure we had at least acknowledged it.
This is a great post. Thank you for both putting in so much thought on the issue and so much effort on crafting the message. What you're saying makes sense; I don't know if all of it will be adopted but I would be amazed if none of it was.
Regarding specializing: I think we're aligned. My model is that genin spend their time focusing primarily around "how do I stay alive?" As they go up in skill they can afford to branch out more.
As to choosing defenses: it's a very cool idea and I would love to see it used in a commercial RPG. You're right that it would address the issue we're dealing with, but I would probably vote against it because (a) it's a major departure from the Fate / DF system and we're trying to minimize those and (b) it's very open to abuse and would require more playtesting than I'd prefer.
Yoink!
Thanks, those are good and I will steal them. And yes, I knew the ones I had were weak when I wrote them. I was rushing and didn't put enough thought in.
- Location
- uk
Well, that's kinda what D&D saving throws were. Standard attacks go into standard defense (AC) which can be improved in different ways - this is basiclaly like the defender picking his defending skill; special attacks (spells/abilities) hit a specific different skill (reflex/toughness/willpower saves). So the idea isn't 100% new but I understand if you don't want to fork fate straight away
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The problem with this is that chakra and Aspects in no way go together. Chakra is a thing you can spend on physical activities. How do you take advantage of the dark to sneak using chakra? How do you use your knowledge of somebody's psychological weaknesses to convince them of your case using chakra? How do you exploit Kagome's assistance to make a solid security system using chakra?
In short, this is an artefact of the incomplete switch from a chakra stress track to a chakra pool. We're still working that one out.
- Location
- Yes.
[x] Tsunade finds out Jiraiya got married
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
[x] Team Sannin getting drunk
[x] Tsunade finds out Jiraiya got married
[x] What would have happened if the YOUTHSUIT chapter stayed canon
[x] What would have happened if the YOUTHSUIT chapter stayed canon
Last edited:
Winged_One
Head Engineer of ATHENA
- Location
- Low Earth Orbit
Nah, I just don't like posting ideas that are only half-baked and may or may not be viable depending on exact math. As well as not liking to do math when I don't know the exact tolerances I have to hit. Would PMing you my idea, as well as what I see following from it, suffice?