Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
We need a "horrified" rating.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Could you be more specific about which parts of the rules you're sceptical about, and/or make suggestions for improvement?
The thing about losing FP is that we also lose Aspects, and some of the impact of Consequences, and those things are important because they facilitate interaction with the environment, tactical options and injury mechanics. I don't think dragging out fights via rerolls is as much as an issue as you believe because FP are a limited resource, and only worth spending on rerolls when the original roll is particularly terrible (otherwise you want to save them up to invoke Aspects). The number of rerolls we anticipate won't be enough to slow combat (also, Fudge dice rerolls are quick and easy).
I see where you're coming from with the narrative vs simulationism trade-off. It's a concern for me as well. But some level of that was inevitable when we decided to move to a crunch-light system that leaned more heavily on QM arbitration over precise, predictable rules. If you have some idea for how to balance the Aspect system without FP as a resource, or for how to make FP more simulationist, we'd be happy to hear it.
- Location
- Yes.
will408914
(slouching towards bethlehem)
- Location
- California
In the Goketsu compound's perfectly normal basement!
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- Yes.
Which one?
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Hello all! PSA: The player-visible version of the rules doc has been updated to match the progress the QMs have made. We're working hard to get this wrapped up ASAP and would love. your help picking through things and giving your suggestions and impressions. We really appreciate those of you who have given your thoughts previously and pointed out places where we messed up - please do keep em coming 
We're getting closer and closer to figuring out exactly how to balance assigning seal complexity, so that should be coming out for you guys to look through soon as well, which I for one am very excited for.
We're getting closer and closer to figuring out exactly how to balance assigning seal complexity, so that should be coming out for you guys to look through soon as well, which I for one am very excited for.
rules doc said:
Hazou said:
Noburi said:
Jiraiya said:
- Location
- Poland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Insightful works well enough.
It's the equivalent of saying "You have stared into the void long enough to convey a small glimpse of it's horrifying beauty."
Or even informative:
"You've been to hell so often that you can accurately describe the position of hairs on Satan's nipples."
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail Here is a mockup of Hazou's character sheet, minus ninjutsu. As you can see, the larger number of skills mean that even modest investment in any but a few will result in a large amount of XP bloat. To address this to some extent, I suggest combining Might and Endurance (as the former likely won't get much use), as well as Cracking and Stealth (as closely-related skills). This will also prevent there from being a 'tax' on traditional ninja work -- B&E would require Stealth as well as Cracking.
e: Whoopsies, I got a look at the QM doc because [redacted]. I only read half a line of QM-only text though, before I realized what I was reading -- nothing too important -- and immediately closed it afterwards.
e: Whoopsies, I got a look at the QM doc because [redacted]. I only read half a line of QM-only text though, before I realized what I was reading -- nothing too important -- and immediately closed it afterwards.
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
While I like the rules for irritants, I have to agree with regard to solid shot -- granted, those stats are for the ranged use of them (See: Range: 1) -- it's possible Solid Shot will be stated up differently if used in melee.
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@OliWhail too since he just asked for feedback
E: Also this was all written before I saw the newest rule version, so maybe some isn't applicable anymore.
In the new system though, combat is much more granular... combattants pick round by round which specific techniques they want to use, how they want to use them (attack vs manouevre vs full defense... etc) exactly how they want to execute them (attack with my right side to tag his "injured left wrist" aspect), how they want to handle the result (FP re-rolls), then the defender decides on consequences, and then you use all these granular combat choices to figure out the result. Rather than using the result to write a complex scene of combat decisions, you're now using the complex play-by-play combat decisions to determine the result. BUT, with all that said, I think it's probably much more fun to play a combat this way, and so if you the QMs who are actually running the combat enjoy it/don't feel encumbered by it, that's what matters.
Gotcha, I could definitely see the fudge rolls being less problematic than I'd initially thought.
Ah yeah, I think you probably still need something like FP to make the system work. As it stands now though, it looks like they're the single most important resource for combat since tagging aspects is HUGE, which is a role that I think chakra should play. Could we not replace FP with chakra points?
Also, FWIW I think that leaning more heavily on QM arbitration actually allows for more simulationism as long as you guys are going for that. Precise and predictable rules can often scale or combine in hilariously unrealistic ways, and I think we'd get more realism if you guys had more power (although I can definitely see why some people who really enjoy finding those clever hacks would find that less fun).
Specific changes I'd advocate for:
E: Also this was all written before I saw the newest rule version, so maybe some isn't applicable anymore.
Ah yeah definitely! So in the old system there was relatively little combat decision making from the character: the character would attempt to TM to their ideal range and would use their highest dice technique, possibly with chakra boost. Every now and then, there would be more complex actions like when Keiko threw a cabinet to intercept the Rock jounin trying to attack Mari during the Joutaro debacle but for the most part you'd roll the dice of the highest dice skill they have available at the range they end up in and then write the flow/actions of combat around that result. This was especially true of multi-combat.
In the new system though, combat is much more granular... combattants pick round by round which specific techniques they want to use, how they want to use them (attack vs manouevre vs full defense... etc) exactly how they want to execute them (attack with my right side to tag his "injured left wrist" aspect), how they want to handle the result (FP re-rolls), then the defender decides on consequences, and then you use all these granular combat choices to figure out the result. Rather than using the result to write a complex scene of combat decisions, you're now using the complex play-by-play combat decisions to determine the result. BUT, with all that said, I think it's probably much more fun to play a combat this way, and so if you the QMs who are actually running the combat enjoy it/don't feel encumbered by it, that's what matters.
Gotcha, I could definitely see the fudge rolls being less problematic than I'd initially thought.
Ah yeah, I think you probably still need something like FP to make the system work. As it stands now though, it looks like they're the single most important resource for combat since tagging aspects is HUGE, which is a role that I think chakra should play. Could we not replace FP with chakra points?
Also, FWIW I think that leaning more heavily on QM arbitration actually allows for more simulationism as long as you guys are going for that. Precise and predictable rules can often scale or combine in hilariously unrealistic ways, and I think we'd get more realism if you guys had more power (although I can definitely see why some people who really enjoy finding those clever hacks would find that less fun).
So my general suggestion would be to take as little of the RPG elements as possible from the system (complex and engaging combat choices, big rewards for staying in-character) while maintaining as much of the balancing and/or mechanics solutions (e.g. using zones to define range, equipment rules for damage, etc.).
Specific changes I'd advocate for:
- Replacing FP with Chakra Points (maybe scaling Chakra Points cost with the level of the stat you're trying to aspect-tag/re-roll)
- Reducing combat choices wherever possible
- E.g. Remove Taijutsu and roll it into Melee and Range
- Keep the old practice of rolling multiple combatants into groups for big fights (how does MC work in the fate system?
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- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
@OliWhail @eaglejarl @Velorien One comment on Fate Points: I think that being able to spend a Fate Point to get a "minor hint or insight from the QMs" might not work out great. From a player perspective, it means we have double the voting to do each update, as we need to determine if we want to vote for an inspiration each update, and we will need to actively vote *not* to buy an inspiration if we don't want one. I expect this will lead to significant player upset and more player infighting/activity, which may quickly become a bad thing. I'm unsure on the rule's exact purpose, but it *seems* like it's intended to act as a way to reduce QM-player interaction (by making it so we need to spend FP to interact with QMs), which if you think it's worth it, I'll trust you, but I'm a little hesitant to support outright.
edit: Also, FP may be hard to balance, as they again incentivize short time-frame plans, since that's a way to farm FP.
edit: Also, FP may be hard to balance, as they again incentivize short time-frame plans, since that's a way to farm FP.
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
On the other hand, it will also encourage player activity to fight for the position they prefer, which while it can lead to infighting, is in itself a valid goal.
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
Right. It will likely polarize the playerbase, with all the attendant pros and cons of polarization.
- Location
- Yes.
We'll be so polarized we'll all distill into a hundred or so different poles, each simultaneously attracting and repelling each other!
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
I think I'm misunderstanding the ninjutsu rules, because this looks broken. It seems like one could just acquire a bunch of techniques which last a stupid long time and cast them, say, once a month, and be pretty set.
For instance, if I'm reading it right, you could make a jutsu which creates armor for you with a timeframe of "a month" (+140 strain) and durability of +20 (+200 strain) which requires a lot of work to satisfy (-30 strain) and only works with an associated element (-20 strain). This technique would have a final strain of +290, which, I think means it costs 29 chakra to cast from the reserve pool? So, basically all the chakra a genin has in a day (if they still wind up with ~30-40 chakra skill levels), but increases their physical stress they can take from 2 to 22 for a month, which seems highly worth it in a high-lethality ninja world.
Similarly, it looks like you could develop a technique which is a mobility boosting technique with a timeframe of "a month" (+140 strain) and a distance of +20 (+200 strain) which effectively grants teleportation (at least, aside from enclosed spaces) and cast it for the same amount of chakra (assuming it has the same requirements.
Similarly, you could just stack these things with month-long effects to grant crazy attack bonuses, so that you roll something like +100 or whatever to all attack and defense rolls, all at the cost of needing to spend ~3-4 days' worth of chakra once a month.
For instance, if I'm reading it right, you could make a jutsu which creates armor for you with a timeframe of "a month" (+140 strain) and durability of +20 (+200 strain) which requires a lot of work to satisfy (-30 strain) and only works with an associated element (-20 strain). This technique would have a final strain of +290, which, I think means it costs 29 chakra to cast from the reserve pool? So, basically all the chakra a genin has in a day (if they still wind up with ~30-40 chakra skill levels), but increases their physical stress they can take from 2 to 22 for a month, which seems highly worth it in a high-lethality ninja world.
Similarly, it looks like you could develop a technique which is a mobility boosting technique with a timeframe of "a month" (+140 strain) and a distance of +20 (+200 strain) which effectively grants teleportation (at least, aside from enclosed spaces) and cast it for the same amount of chakra (assuming it has the same requirements.
Similarly, you could just stack these things with month-long effects to grant crazy attack bonuses, so that you roll something like +100 or whatever to all attack and defense rolls, all at the cost of needing to spend ~3-4 days' worth of chakra once a month.
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
Also, with summoning now having an explicit mechanic for how much it costs to summon someone, it's far easier to optimize for who to make contracts with. Just find the min-maxed pangolins, since they've spent less XP and thus are cheaper to summon and keep around. If it took 27,000 XP to build Zabuza. I'm guessing Zabuza is around the order of magnitude of strength as the biggest Pangolin we've summoned. Zabuza rolled attacks varying from of ~45-65, with a big final attack which rolled 113 in combat. If instead, we found someone who just had invested in taijutsu instead of all the random stuff Zabuza leveled, they could roll centered around 120 every time for a build cost of ~7000, or about a fourth of the amount it would cost to summon Zabuza.
Edit: this is also likely the highly optimal way to build a team: have one super specialist in each topic and never cross train.
Edit: this is also likely the highly optimal way to build a team: have one super specialist in each topic and never cross train.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Nice! Thank you, that's helpful.
Might and Endurance could work well as a combined skill, yeah. Stealth and Cracking definitely do not -- Stealth is about your personal skill at moving quietly and hiding in shadows while Cracking is about disassembling mechanisms and picking locks. Something to think about, though. Thanks for the suggestion.
Well, you're consistent anyway.
In what way has the Iron Nerve been nerfed? It provides exactly the same bonus (+3) on exactly the same set of skills and has exactly the same benefits regarding sealing.
I will grant you that the Vampiric Dew is now only powerful instead of god-tier, game-breaking, 'no point in having teammates' ludicrous. Somehow, you will need to survive that. (Honestly, what we really *wanted* to do was get rid of the mist drain, since that was a bad idea that violated the original conception of the bloodline and we made a mistake when we let the players talk us into it. Unfortunately, that ship has sailed.)
We're open to suggestions -- what would be better? As to the range, the idea is that the rules are the same for either melee or range and the 'Range:1' simply specifies how far you can shoot.
I agree with just about every single point you made. That said, the new system has a couple major advantages over the old one: it's easy and intuitive to use and, speaking as a QM and an author, it's fun. Writing chapters under the old rules was a complete pain in the ass. Designing seals and jutsu was a friggin' nightmare full of aggravation and worry. The new Fated to Die rules (hat tip to @Cariyaga for the name) give us a framework for designing things. It'll never be perfect because magic powers are inherently hard to put in a framework and hard to balance, but at least this gives us something to work with. More importantly, the Aspect system *helps* with the writing instead of getting in the way. Based on a couple of data points (my chapter and @Velorien's) it looks like there are more combat rounds in each fight, but it still took me half the time to work out that Sasuke et al fight than it would have under the old system.
That rule is baked into DF; we didn't create it, we just brought it over. You make good points, though. Let me talk to the others and maybe we'll ditch it.
Hello all! PSA: The player-visible version of the rules doc has been updated to match the progress the QMs have made. We're working hard to get this wrapped up ASAP and would love. your help picking through things and giving your suggestions and impressions. We really appreciate those of you who have given your thoughts previously and pointed out places where we messed up - please do keep em coming
We're getting closer and closer to figuring out exactly how to balance assigning seal complexity, so that should be coming out for you guys to look through soon as well, which I for one am very excited for.
I approve of bringing down the Aspect bonuses, should reduce how swingy FPs are in high-level combat.
Skill List:
I will continue to champion merging Endurance and Might into Physique, because I'm difficult that way
. Wrestling should be Taijutsu, everything else under the Might heading would fit fine in a general "physically tough person" skill.Would Cracking also apply to dealing with Seal-based security? If not, what would?
Splitting up the skills "build traps" and "place traps" when a) they're both Craftsmanship and b) you use just Cracking to oppose them seems unnecessary, though I suppose the advantage it gives the attacker is kinda thematically appropriate.
Performance and Presence don't seem amazingly well differentiated, either - Deceit to trick people, Intimidate for the obvious, Presence for putting on a show or negotiating, and Rapport for being open and honest (plus Conviction and Discipline for social defense, though they're both somewhat versatile) seem like enough social skills.
Technique Hacking is mentioned later in the document as a skill, but isn't actually on the skill list itself. I'm sure it's a special thing, but so's Sealing.
The example for a Scaled-Down Check is against a target number of 50, not 5, which doesn't seem to match the rest of the explanation?
The bit about Chakra Regeneration is good fun
.How's drawing a weapon stand on the action chart? Ranged characters would be pretty hurt if standard weapons took a supplemental action to ready. Seals are OP, so them taking an action's fine by me
.I like the new Ninja Hands.
Macerators using solid shot only doing the same damage as a standard thrown kunai seems a little low. Maybe bump them to Weapon 2? The -3 for activating a seal balances against the increased Weapon value - less likely to hit, but just as bad if they do, and more versatile.
Hmm. I suppose you could oppose Craftsmanship (security) against Alertness and Craftsmanship (traps) against Cracking, but that seems like a crunchier subsystem than needed.
Honestly, I don't actually like Chakra Boosting as a generic technique - I prefer the idea that ninja generally are better because of Chakra, and there's probably a few jutsu that interact with it, but Chakra as a round-by-round variable boost just isn't as interesting or fun as throwing jutsu, and gives better combat advantages a lot of the time for less XP (also, lots of the time, it's not actually a choice, just a matter of "how long until I run dry").
In addition to @Radvic's point about the extended-duration personal Jutsu that break the setting, I feel the current numbers overprice some established ones (like MEW, which comes out absurdly expensive for a mid-range defensive jutsu with utility applications). Maybe have different numbers for utility vs attack vs person boosting jutsu?
I quite like the Genjutsu section. Sealing, too.
...Summoning does look vulnerable to minmaxing, but on the other hand that feels kinda appropriate - summoning a specialist should be easier than a generalist with one comparable skill.
More stuff later, I suppose, but out of time, see you all tomorrow
.
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
One other comment: it looks like specialization is going to be kind of broken in the current form of the mechanics as a far superior strategy to gathering a wide range of skills. I think Fate was built around the idea of skill pyramids, making it mechanically impossible to hyper-specialize. With that gone in the new rules, the clear way to punch above your level is to just min-max and either only take certain challenges, or stay in a group with a bunch of fellow min-maxers (ideally one of whom has min-maxed into all the ally granting armor). For instance, Zabuza was built with a bunch of XP (27,000 I think?), however, if someone just took reasonable levels of Alertness, and Athletics, and then specialized in Taijutsu, they could have a stat breakdown like this:
Alertness: 100 (5050 XP)
Athletics: 100 (5050 XP)
Taijutsu: 120 (7260 XP)
Total: 17,360 XP
Considering the highest Zabuza rolled for anything was 113 in the combat, and he tended to roll closer to 50-60 most of the time, this build seems like it would trash Zabuza's build very effectively (and almost any combat situation really), despite being built with just over half as much XP.
Alertness: 100 (5050 XP)
Athletics: 100 (5050 XP)
Taijutsu: 120 (7260 XP)
Total: 17,360 XP
Considering the highest Zabuza rolled for anything was 113 in the combat, and he tended to roll closer to 50-60 most of the time, this build seems like it would trash Zabuza's build very effectively (and almost any combat situation really), despite being built with just over half as much XP.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
One thing that should be remembered about Macerators is that they let you roll Taijutsu at range. Granted, not with the Ninja Hands bonus, but all the same it lets Hazou use his Taijutsu alongside Keiko using Weapons as opposed to Keiko using Weapons and Hazou having to run into the middle of the fight to use Taijutsu.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Here's a question with regard to summoning @eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail: Is the Chakra cost of summoning set at the time you make the contract? I don't think that's exactly reasonable, but a discount on further growth from the time of the contract would incentivize summoners to build up a roster of summons specific to themselves and help train them: that way, they get a discount on chakra cost for summoning them.
But part of the reason we developed macerators was for a close-range combat boost, which it doesn't do... unless, of course it would be usable as a separate attack, allowing you to make one taijutsu attack (at -3) and one macerator attack?
Either way, you could relatively-easily port over the old-style mechanics by just making a separate Range: 0 macerator attack that gives +9 to Taijutsu (for a total of +6 with the penalty to supplemental actions).
That was already the case before, though?
But part of the reason we developed macerators was for a close-range combat boost, which it doesn't do... unless, of course it would be usable as a separate attack, allowing you to make one taijutsu attack (at -3) and one macerator attack?
Either way, you could relatively-easily port over the old-style mechanics by just making a separate Range: 0 macerator attack that gives +9 to Taijutsu (for a total of +6 with the penalty to supplemental actions).