Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- UK
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- He/Him
More of a chakra mech summon, really, especially the complete form used by Madara. The only thing that makes it armour-like is that the user is inside it. At that point, you have to include all of Gaara's sand shells (the ones he uses against Sasuke and Deidara) and maybe even Neji's Heavenly Spin, and then you're basically saying that defensive technique = armour.
Tua
鸡肉面条汤
- Location
- شوربة الدجاج المعكرونة
The thing about canon is how a character will either be fast enough to dodge everything (including Kawarimis that make the viewer think he got hit) or can tank it for dramatic effect so my suggestion would be to not model the gameplay rules too much on canon in this case.
In canon, whatever made more sense for the plot or looked cooler happened; this doesn't mesh with a quest where bad rolls can happen to the best (and statistically will be) because there is no such thing as plot armor. Having a safety net is very, very valuable because of this.
What worries me is that ninjas are super squishy because their offense scales pretty well and has to only win a single roll in most cases and the longer the quest takes, the more likely this is going to go affect us negatively.
EDIT: An alternative would be to have specific armor give penalties to opposing enemy offense rolls. Still would be a deviance from canon but since there is no such thing as a Health Points stat, it might help?
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- Location
- UK
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- He/Him
Squishiness is actually intentional to an extent. Marked for Death was meant to be a quest about low-power missing-nin surviving by being clever, including avoiding the battles they could and stacking the odds for the ones they couldn't. It was never imagined that you'd still be on your first character after two years, having successfully managed to fix your pariah status, your lack of allies and your low firepower on your first try.
Bear in mind that if armour is common, then enemies will have it too, and battles will turn into slugging matches. At that point, you'll be less likely to die and more likely to be wounded, which will lead to long-term impairment and make the quest slower and less fun for everyone.
- Location
- Snakesden
@OliWhail @eaglejarl @Velorien
It seems like this could significantly change the action plan we would have made, as well as the outcome of the battle under the current plan. It also seems like the ideal outcome would be for both the plan and the resulting battle to make as much sense as possible given the state of the world (i.e. jutsu our team has). And it seems like pushing to get the update out by tomorrow might result in a lot of stress. Would you all be amenable to giving us another interlude (or perhaps a retcon-flashback to receiving Pangolin jutsu) tomorrow, and saving the battle for Saturday so there's more time to figure things out?
e: this would be my suggestion even if you categorically rejected the possibility of voting on a new action plan. This situation is just pinging my radar for potential problems. Obviously you know much better than I do how well the battle setup is going, so feel free to disregard this if you think it's well in hand.
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Tua
鸡肉面条汤
- Location
- شوربة الدجاج المعكرونة
Instead of armor, how about a purely defensive stat/jutsu that subtracts from enemy rolls then? For example:
Hazo has 20 Taijutsu dice and 5 Defense dice. The enemy has 25 Taijutsu stats.
Hazo would roll 20d100 vs the enemies 25-5d100. No wound modifier or anything, just making losing due to bad luck less likely.
The new stat/jutsu would have zero offensive bonuses but in return would cost less XP to level than any of the offensive stats to make up for it - unless you make said stat work on all offensive rolls then it could be argued to cost the same or more than leveling Taijutsu.
Basically as it is right now, Taijutsu includes attacking, parrying and dodging. The new stat would just add to parrying/dodging instead without affecting offense.
@Langevin makes a good but unlike him, I am fine without a new vote or lore update (because I wanna see things move along). Just please keep the fact that we made the plan before the changes in mind so cut us some slack where appropriate.
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Of course, you could just let armour, and thus the Goketsu, be rather powerful. It's not as though a simulationist game needs to be rebalanced when the protagonists become stronger than normal characters by exploiting rare resources such as the closely guarded secrets of xenophobic aliens.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That point was actually made just a couple of hours ago in a GM chat, so it sounds like we're on the same page. One problem that we're wrestling with is that when @OliWhail and I approved the pangolin jutsu we were both exceptionally low on spoons and didn't do enough stress testing. Now that we're actually a little more spoonful (in my case because we secured a second pre-seed investment and therefore will no longer be out of business in 2 months) and have our third brain back (looking at you, @Velorien) we are realizing that we didn't do a good job of balancing them. Ghost Scales, for example, would let Noburi or Jiraiya ignore C-class wounds and doesn't have a maintenance cost, so they can have it running 24/7/365. We're revisiting that and checking the others over while we're at it.
We will definitely cut you some slack, yes. (Well, I will if I end up writing the fight. @Velorien is the mean GM, so if he writes it you'll probably all end up dragged off to Hell for a thousand years of eternal torment.)
In other news, I would like to thank everyone for the calm, measured, supportive way you've been reacting to this. I was bracing for a lot of salt, and I really can't explain how much it means to me that people are handling this so well. Thank you all.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
EDIT: Aaaaand, I fail reading comprehension forever. CTJ doesn't affect Int. Never mind, nothing to see here.
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My Condor Training Jutsu proposal boosts DEX and WIT. Are you thinking of my Technique Hacking Training Jutsu from earlier (which boosts INT and WIT)? I thought that one was rejected?
I mean, obviously, I'd prefer the TH Training Jutsu, if we can get it, for the reasons you stated.
- Location
- floating away
Chapter 161.2: The Will of Fire
The distant sound of shouting allowed Megumin to orient herself. She had been separated from her team in the mist, again. Apparently, they weren't going to bother finding her a fourth time. Whatever. Shouting must mean the fighting had started, right? She charged forward.
Megumin, (Awareness 10d100) – (Hiding in the mist 12d100) vs (Hazou Stealth 15d100) (Maybe she should have trained her awareness instead of focusing solely on jutsu.)
Rolled: -30 vs 746
Rolled: -30 vs 746
Megumin, (Awareness 10d100 – Hiding in the mist 12d100 – A class wound 3d100) Vs (Recognize her allies, TN -150) Rolled: -219
Dazed and surrounded by strangers, she wasn't afraid. She knew what to do. She was born for this. The leaf nin didn't have her surrounded- She had them surrounded. … Metaphorically. To the sound of passionate shouts above, she formed her signature hand seals while laying in the dirt.
(Megumin, her favorite thing, Grand Fireball 58d100 – 3d100 A class Wound vs Mist nin Tacmove)
Megumin: 2740
Megumin, Tac move 24d100 -12d100 (prone) - 3d100 (Wound)
519 C- Class... Defeat?
Wakahisa Neruba
1660 C-Class Defeat!
Wakahisa Niburu
1421 C-Class Defeat!
Rock nin who was lost
943 C-Class Defeat!
Clanless Mist Ninja 1
1380 C-Class Defeat!
Clanless Mist Ninja 2
1133 C-Class Defeat!
Clanless Mist Ninja 2
1369 C-Class Defeat!
Mist Anbu Plant:
2643 A-Class Defeat!
Megumin: 2740
Megumin, Tac move 24d100 -12d100 (prone) - 3d100 (Wound)
519 C- Class... Defeat?
Wakahisa Neruba
1660 C-Class Defeat!
Wakahisa Niburu
1421 C-Class Defeat!
Rock nin who was lost
943 C-Class Defeat!
Clanless Mist Ninja 1
1380 C-Class Defeat!
Clanless Mist Ninja 2
1133 C-Class Defeat!
Clanless Mist Ninja 2
1369 C-Class Defeat!
Mist Anbu Plant:
2643 A-Class Defeat!
Hazou stared on in horror at the utter devastation as his new students were consumed by the will of fire.
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- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We've indeed discussed that. But it's not an issue of whether you should have cool stuff as a result of successfully leveraging rare resources. It's an issue of whether the specific cool stuff you've gained is something that should have been available to you.
Here's the thing: in a simulationist game, whatever ability you have, NPCs with similar power levels and/or resource access must naturally have abilities of analogous effectiveness. If you live in a world where a chūnin-ish summoner can get an ability that lets them automatically ignore an attack that would cripple a normal ninja, then that means you live in a world where anyone of similar resourcefulness can get, say, an ability that lets them automatically inflict an attack that would cripple a normal ninja. In other words, if you've obtained a poor man's Earth Spear with your resources, then other highly-advantaged new chūnin out there are walking around with a poor man's Rasen-Shuriken or a poor man's Mangekyō Sharingan. Such a world is a lot more lethal than the world you thought you were living in.
I'd say that we've been the benefactors of jutsu arbitrage. There were pangolins that specialised in armour jutsu creation, but there wasn't an analogue on the human path. I would expect a Yamanaka to be just as terrifying on the summon path if the animal clans lack any telepathy-specialists. If other clans use jutsu types that are rare or non-existent on the human path (as with Pangolins and their armour) then yes, I expect their summoners to be wielding things that look like minor outside context problems in this setting.
Such a world is more dangerous, but if the "non-proliferation, no hacking" stuff is near-universal, and summon scrolls are as rare as we've been led to believe (and Keiko having one as a chunin is an oddity, as the Polemarch implied) then all that means is there are a few extra S-rankers walking around.
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- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I mean as far as I know summoning was a quick path to S-class. Also we are in a world where people can turn into lighting. They can also rewrite reality so they don't die after taking leathal wounds. So I wouldn't say we are unbalancing the world at all.
Over all the only thing that really changes is that we are on an S-Rank trajectory like Naruto and Sasuke in canon
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- Location
- floating away
I mean, if anything is going to put you on the path to being S rank, it's our current situation. We have the Hokage/Toad Summoner/A Sannin/ Legendary Sealmaster as our father, another master sealmaster as our uncle, are a sealmaster ourselves, and the Pangolin Summoner as our sister. Plus, thanks to Noburi (Provided we get some fish.), we can likely train more in a single day than average because of the extra source of chakra.
Makes sense to me. I support the nerfing... if it were that easy to develop such high power jutsu, everyone would do it.
- Location
- floating away
Are there any non-predatory chakra plants?
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The more powerful summoning is, the less plausible it is that Jiraiya let some random missing-nin child keep the scroll. If he was able to turn a strong, loyal Leaf ninja into an instant S-ranker just by giving them the scroll, Jiraiya would have immediately bought it off you (or taken it off your dead body).
As for the other point, you're not unbalancing the world if you have crazy strong techniques. Those are part and parcel of the Narutoverse (even if we've been toning down the more egregious cases). You're unbalancing the world if you have crazy strong techniques at a level which means lots of other people must have them too. Your examples are a Kage and a guy who used biomodification to gain an ultimate Bloodline Limit power ten times. If that power level is something you can attain just by being a highly-advantaged new chūnin, then what does that say about clan heirs, and Bloodline Limit holders, and actual jōnin and above? MfD!Nagato should be able to implement the Eye of the Moon plan just by snapping his fingers.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well even if the pangolin Jutsu aren't as strong as we thought we still will be on the S-Rank curve because Jiraiya is our new dad. In canon at least everyone he taught hit S-rank. So if you don't want to write a story where we are the top of our age rank then will have to keep him busy.
Basically my argument is that we should be have access to top tier stuff and be top tier ninja. I mean in the real world there are tons of people with equivalent starting positions of bountiful resources. Most of those people stay at around the same level of success as they started. Some claw the way up to the top.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Summoners are as a rule very difficult opponents because they generally end up able to summon Jounin-level summons to suit any situation. We can summon Panashe for stealth missions and Panchipama for combat, making Keiko effectively Jounin-tier in stealth and combat. Add in a ninja's standard bag of tricks and strategies and you're facing a very tough opponent, but since I don't think most summoners trade with their clans as much as we do from Skytowers the breadth of what a Summoning Scroll is 'expected' to give you only goes as far as the summons themselves.
Looking at the techniques we've gotten, Earth Armor and Ghost Scales don't seem more secret than you'd expect for useful Pangolin techniques. If these are the sort of things you can expect mid-grade Pangolins using in combat, and the Summon Clans are roughly comparable to regular ninja in terms of power levels (which I think we've seen, since Pankurashun is a military leader there and Jounin-tier, which roughly matches ninja) then you would expect the techniques of Leaf (the secret but not top-secret ones) to be similarly good. So either the techniques we got from the Pangolins are a lot more secret than described, a lot weaker than described, or people like Neji are going to have access to really strong techniques just like us.
Since it's an easier task to reevaluate the techniques we got from the Pangolins than it is to reevaluate the techniques of every ninja we fight, it makes sense to fix things on the Pangolin end, even if it's disappointing for us since it means getting nerfed.