- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well we know shadow clones are a thing. So just need to ask best dad to teach us
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
Well we know shadow clones are a thing. So just need to ask best dad to teach us
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
Refilling our own coils will take a while. Like, it takes our genin ~24 hours to refill their coils if I remember the numbers right. What we can do, is refill everybody off whatever of our enemies we don't kill (assuming we survive/win).
Akatsunami
The Bonetatoist
- Location
- Brazil
On PC, can we get a Pangolin that is able to use it though? Since it is being retconed that we as humans can't have acess to it, can we exchange one of our contracts to someone that can use it, or have Panda learn it/become a relay that we can use to spread the jutsu? It would probably be more expensive chackra wise but still better than just taking it out of the game.
- Location
- floating away
I like that! A tiny pangolin telepath following us around underground, maintaining the link for us. And since it's a natural ability of the summon pangolin, I bet they'd be able to maintain it for a fair while.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Doesn't Noburi need to actively keep the chakra in the water to keep it from leaking out, though? If we sold flasks of chakra water, they'd last so little time that we'd be better off just charging money for on the spot chakra refills.
Which is something we can do, really, but it's a business of a slightly different nature.
- Location
- floating away
Maybe we could do the wakahisa Mojo Jojo on like, chakra deer, and just keep them sedated + hooked up to a huuuge barrel all the time.
It could be a Strategic Chakra reserve.
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- Location
- USA
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
I like the idea, but it is something a good deal of Wakahisa would come up with, so either there are great and terrible logistical issues afoot or Mist's Wakahisa already have one of their own.
Given what I remember of Noburi's Academy days (bullied for refills), Mist doesn't seem like the place where this sort of thing is going on, but that could easily be because the Wakahisa are charging enough that purchasing chakra water doesn't even cross the minds of mere Academy students.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Strategic chakra reserve sounds exactly like something they'd have, though. Not for sale, but for use in extremes.
- Location
- floating away
Most people find that creative body horror solutions to mundane problems don't come naturally to them. Sure, they probably have more biosealing experience than the average ninja clan, but it's a weird and not immediately useful idea, and there aren't that many Wakahisa. I'd be surprised if any ninja out there had actually invested significant effort into it.
- Location
- how about no
I see I am late to the party, but regardless welcome back @Velorien ! As a homecoming gift, allow me to offer my two cents to this discussion.
This is only mostly true; not strictly true... unless you are being very generous with your terms so that 'power levels' includes a simulated person's natural intelligence and 'resource access' encompasses his education as well. Just because Grog the caveman and I have roughly the same physical strength and we both live in some resource rich woods does not mean that Grog will figure out how to create metal tools as quickly as I would given the same amount of time.
But let's be generous and say Grog is an exemplary young caveman with a keen intellect. I agree that if he and I were to stumble upon two steel axes he would probably be able to figure out how to use it just as effectively as I could. He and I would both be able to chop down as many trees to our hearts' content. However, the difference I am trying to distinguish here, is what happens afterwards.
Grog will have plenty of wood to use for his caveman needs and he may even use it for other purposes besides arboricide. However I can examine the axe and from there use it to learn about where it came from and how to make other crude, but still metal, tools in time. I have knowledge that Grog simply doesn't possess and the wherewithal to implement it, just as Hazou has us to give him novel ideas to use in game to give him a huge competitive edge.
So long as we are relying solely on the techniques given to us by NPC's, I agree that they will not give us an overwhelming advantage. That said, knowledge is power and simply having more military spells than your opponent can be the deciding advantage if all else is equal.
I do disagree with this though. We were able to create Skywalkers by taking something everyone else already had written off and adapting it to a new use. It's the difference between telling two people to be creative and then handing each of them a pencil and a piece of paper followed by isolating them from all outside interference, including each other. One might walk out with a deeply moving, yet inventive short story whereas the other might take his piece of paper, fold it into a paper crane, use his pencil to shade it in an unexpected fashion, rip the edges of the paper so that the wings look like they have real feathers, and then use the pencil itself to color the beak and feet after splitting it into workable pieces.
This isn't even going into how the hypothetical proctor never said they had to use the pencil and paper in the first place.
My point is that being not just creative, but truly original is excruciatingly hard. It is much easier to simply follow others' examples and use the same methods that they do to achieve satisfactory results. Real, revolutionary innovation takes daring to spit in the face of conventional wisdom.
Hazou can cheat since he has access to all of our collective brain power and even more indirectly our world's history. Not only are we a Yankee in Kind Arthur's court, we are a Yankee battle wizard with indirect access to the internet in King Arthur's Court. If it weren't for all of the events in the story demanding our attention I would be disappointed in ourselves for not having conquered the Elemental Nations and the rest of the world by now.
Such a world is lethal, sure, but it's still centuries behind ours in terms of technology and other academic advances. All we need is a bit of time to steer Hazou in the right directions so that he can begin unraveling not only the mysteries of chakra, but also rediscovering all of the natural sciences you and I take for granted everyday. It should take him considerably less time too since we already know what to look for and how our normal reality mostly works. Reading as many books about natural philosophy is a good start, so the next step now, if we can find the time, would be to test Hazou on how well he can function as a scientist.
I don't want world changing power handed to us on a silver platter; that's Naruto's shtick. I want Hazou to build a better world through many small yet interconnected inventions that add up to be worth far more than the sum of their parts, like Zeppelins.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
@Velorien @eaglejarl @OliWhail since you are rebalancing pangolin Jutsu should probably consider hitting pangolin flash with the nerf bat. Breaking action economy is more broken than abilities to tank hits.
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
If you had a strategic chakra reserve would you tell people about it? Even your kage?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
On the other hand, that could be the difference between "Pangolin Flash" and "Generic Lightning Chakra Boost #432"; pangolin seem to have defensive techniques dependent on minor actions to sustain, so that'd make them particularly useful to the Pangolin.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well the argument is that we shouldn't have access to anything truly game breaking from the pangolins so need to hit everything with the nerf bat to be balanced at the level QMs wants us to be at
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Yeah, that's fair. TBH though I'd be surprised if there weren't at least a few techniques available that increase the quantity of minor actions available though -- Jiraiya would be on the hunt for them, and might even actively create them himself -- as a sealmaster, they're exceptionally useful to him -- if nothing else.
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- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think you've missed the context of the original discussion. The discussion was on whether it is plausible for Hazō to be able to gain armour ninjutsu from the pangolins, based on the potentially gamebreaking power of armour in a rocket tag setting and what this would imply about the kind of ninjutsu other people can get by leveraging their special resources. Hazō's powers of originality and creativity are not relevant here.
As a separate comment unrelated to your post, I should note that while you guys have put yourself into an amazing position in terms of resource access etc., it is a step too far to treat it as an instant S-rank button. Even Sasuke, an allegedly once-in-a-generation genius with a blatantly OP Bloodline Limit specifically geared towards learning tajutsu and ninjutsu, and access to Orochimaru's vast pool of unique and disturbing knowledge, still needed three years of solid one-on-one training from an S-ranker before he could challenge Itachi (and even then, Itachi was holding back).
I don't think armour is an instant S-rank button, even in it's current form.
GS requires level 50 (1275xp just spent on GS, ignoring attributes, which is more than a 3xp/day ninja earns in a year) to tank C-class wounds. And our builds are already really tight. Assuming we spend a whole 50% of our xp on it - we won't, that would be absurd - then at the 3xp/day that we earn for average plans, we don't reach the level 50 mark for another >2 years. And in those 2 years, our other skills stop growing at the rate they were doing at the moment, because we're only spending half as much xp on them.
And then, once you've got level 50, you need to spend 150CP and a combat action every time you want to use it to tank a new C-class wound. Which for Hazou and Kei is completely unfeasible, especially if they've spent 50% of their xp on GS.
And even after all that, the ability to trade a combat action and 150CP to tank a single barely C-class wound does not an S-ranker make.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Actually, our theory is that pangolins are naturally ridiculously heavily armored and therefore have very few defensive techniques. Pantsā recognized the squishiness of humans and deliberately put you in contact with some of their heavy armor units who DO use defensive jutsu. These aren't super top secret special techniques, but they aren't common either, simply because they don't fit a need that most pangolins have.
Oneiros43, Reading Comprehension:
2d100: 78
TN, understand the discussion: 100
FAIL
Oneiros43, Assume the QMs are Big Meanies:
50d100: 3371
TN, give benefit of the doubt in an internet discussion: 250
CRUSHING VICTORY!
2d100: 78
TN, understand the discussion: 100
FAIL
Oneiros43, Assume the QMs are Big Meanies:
50d100: 3371
TN, give benefit of the doubt in an internet discussion: 250
CRUSHING VICTORY!
I think you're misunderstanding what we've been saying. We aren't trying to balance you at a particular power level, we are correcting a specific mistake (pangolin communication is not a jutsu and therefore is not available to be taught as such) and also trying to keep the setting internally consistent. If the pangolins have plenty of very powerful techniques, especially non-elemental ones, that are teachable to humans then that implies the other clans do as well. If that's the case then every summoner would have access to them and would naturally teach them to other humans. That should have been happening for a thousand years, so the knowledge should be spread pretty widely at this point. The setting that has been shown is not consistent with that.
Yes, there is also the game balance issue that @Velorien talked about, but again that's a question of internal consistency. We've shown and planned for a specific lethality level and are trying to avoid a situation where that level should logically be much harsher than intended.
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The "instant S-rank" comment was aimed more at arguments that being the Hokage's children should instantly put you near the top of the power curve - I don't think GS is literally Earth Spear waiting to happen, or I'd have vetoed it so hard that my voice would have propagated backwards in time to when I didn't have a working computer, for the reasons @eaglejarl just ninja-posted me with. That said, I think the ability to tank wounds at all is pretty powerful - even an A-class wound will cripple a lightly-injured ninja, or kill a moderately-injured one.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That's an entirely valid point. I wasn't paying attention to the "limited by GS level" point, instead being horrified at the "can be put up outside of combat, has no expiration or sustain cost aside from a Quick action." Let us go back and talk a little more.
Okay. Then let's say that Noburi (and it would be Noburi, this tactic is only viable if you already have some kind of insane chakra pool to abuse) only had GS level 49. Or perhaps the enemy managed a victory result of 51. Point is, despite throwing huge amounts of chakra and XP at the problem, and his combat action, he still takes an A-class wound. Two more of those and he's dead.
I get where you're coming from, but I don't feel that this is as broken as you believe.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Incidentally, as mentioned above, Pantokrator's Communion is definitely off the table. It's not a thing that exists, because pangolin communication isn't actually a jutsu.
The current plan is to come up with two non-elemental techniques (as well as the previously stated techniques that were not chosen) and let you vote for which one you want to replace PC with. This would be retroactive to when you learned all the pangolin techniques back in Leaf.
Suggestions are being taken, so if there's anything you want please throw some fluff and/or crunch at us.
The current plan is to come up with two non-elemental techniques (as well as the previously stated techniques that were not chosen) and let you vote for which one you want to replace PC with. This would be retroactive to when you learned all the pangolin techniques back in Leaf.
Suggestions are being taken, so if there's anything you want please throw some fluff and/or crunch at us.
- Location
- USA
To be fair, I think the frustration is more at things being approved and implemented only for them to be changed/taken away without warning down the line. I'm sure these arguments would have been more palatable if they were brought up in the approval phase, whereas now it throws a bitter taste over the jutsu picking due to the approval process losing its credibility. Not that you guys are wrong in any way to change things now for consistency, just that the frustration is probably more based on the unfairness of how it came about. Quite a few players' complaints are that we're now entering a battle with a plan pre-change with the battle being implemented post-change. And that there was nothing we could do on our end to prevent this, what with getting no warning of it and it not being a situation we could plan for under the game's mechanics (unexpected game changes with a locked in plan). Ex: we just lost a jutsu and while we'll get a chance to replace it, we've effectively been handicapped because we're not getting the replacement jutsu in time for this battle (or even to plan with it).
Not that I want the battle delayed at all, the last 2 updates have been buildup updates and I personally would be very sad if this upcoming update with all its promised battle-glory eludes us any longer!
- Location
- Australia
... are you sure about that?
Yet that is clearly occurring. I don't mind, but it is still clearly occurring.
And i don't think anyone has an issue with this except for the large impact is has in rewrites and plans. Create a new communication jutsu and we will roll with it.
And here we go with the balancing. As I said i don't mind that its occurring, but don't claim its not. As for the reason, I think you have some massive disconnect between how powerful a technique is after dedicating half their life/xp to it, vs being one of several techniques (or 1000 in kakashi's case) in a build. Or even some other rando technique with a similar investment level that was substituted instead.
As for proliferation, it has already been shown how large a PITA it is to get the right to teach an ability to a heir, let alone to 'anyone'. We had to basically hand over an empire changing ability to earn 5 such techniques, a couple of which are elemental and not available to everyone in a clan. And to a certain extend Yes a summoner derived Jutsu is powerful, but summoners tend to be some of the most powerful ninja in existence, I do not understand why you are now of the opinion that that is not the case.