- Location
- ...Nice try.
Ah, that's the problem. They needed an animal/vegetable/mineral hybrid.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Ah, that's the problem. They needed an animal/vegetable/mineral hybrid.
Okay, in the absence of new seal descriptions...
[x] Research Hazou: Larger Capacity Storage Seal
It's a good generic piece of tech that will lower TNs on future storage scroll variants, and will probably be useful to us in lots of different ways.
[x] Research Hazou: Larger Capacity Storage Seal
It's a good generic piece of tech that will lower TNs on future storage scroll variants, and will probably be useful to us in lots of different ways.
Rihaku
The Internet
Does Kagome know how many other people might know and/or be able to confirm this? For example, if Rain is really filled with Dummy's chakra, that seems like something it would be possible to, if not falsify, at least make general falsification efforts towards. If the Dummy was Madara, does that mean the blood of Dunny runs through Hazou's veins?
- Location
- Snakesden
We got some evidence for the Rain thing when we briefly tried running through it and Noburi noticed the rain was chakra-infused. Mari said there were rumors of people able to chakra-infuse rain and use it to sense people.
The fact that patrols/missions into Rain inevitably disappear, and that it hasn't been taken over by anyone despite being pretty small, is more evidence that someone powerful is in there.
- Location
- Finland
I'm back from the cabin, so some commentary on the Nara talk.
"Ah. Projectiles. Wait, no - that's not the issue. I've thought about upgrading sensor seals but there are power issues and I don't know enough about ordinary defenses to be sure what needs to be taken into account."
That is to say, in less Nara-speak, point defences are simple. We've got skywalkers, we have to have a million ways to take out an approaching target. The issue is that we need to be able to accurately detect said target at a distance in full three-dimensional battlespace before we can do that. Ordinary radar or chakra radar is one thing, if we can get the resolution high enough, but there's all the ninja tricks that can be combined with Skywalkers starting with countering radar with Henge - they have a lot of infiltration tricks that we don't even know about, and there have to be lots of defences against such tricks that we don't know about and we have to consider how all these combine with aerial mobility. If I had to guess, there'll need to be multiple types of defensive sensors complementing each other, probably combined with actual air patrols to check suspicious activity. I think the only really effective way for many of them is going to be turning the problem of volume into a problem of surface with a dome shield of some type (for sensing, not actual blocking). This is all for suicide bombers and relatively close-quarters stuff, however. For actual aerial bombardment from extremely high, there'll need to be other measures which still have to hinge around preventing enemies from getting in a position to do that, because if we're just defending against the attack itself they'll figure out a way through eventually.
We would need to learn about ninja techniques for operating in low-oxygen environments to figure out the effective height limit of the area we need to cover, but I would assume it is very high. However, we'll quickly arrive in a region where we can basically declare 'anything that moves here is treated as an enemy and immediately vaporized', which eases up limitations on weapons deployment. Of course the main issue is still sensing things, but above the clouds there's little cover to hide behind. (Check for ninja tricks again, however). We probably need to set up these sensor platforms or whatever they are with active countermeasures either in the form of a ninja fast response unit or sufficiently powerful seal-based weaponry, prepared to automatically immediately destroy anything detected in the area.
However, this is all largely unimportant speculation. We don't know enough about what's already been done and what capabilities both sides have, let alone what defenses Leaf has or needs, to be able to contribute real solutions effectively yet. And given that nobody else has Skywalkers yet, there's time.
A puzzled frown. "Huh. I'm not sure whether to be happy or sad for him."
Good for him. I'm glad he had a secure environment to spend so much time in, though I'm sad to hear that he had no peers he thought trustworthy and capable enough to help him. However, our different situations aside, Skywalkers can not be 'countered'. They aren't a single attack or defense, they're a tool that combines with all the other tools available to vastly expand the possible capabilities of the user. That's why they're a paradigm shift and not just a new fancy toy. You can counter someone dropping rocks on you from great height, you can counter people trying to infiltrate your position from above, you can counter recon outposts in the sky. You can't counter the fact that the battlefield is now three-dimensional. It's not possible to come up with every possible combination of techniques with Skywalkers and individually counter each one and then all the counters to the counters and so on, especially when we don't know any more than a small fraction of techniques out there. We have to adapt to the new situation and come up with broad changes in procedure and we'll still be caught off-guard. We need to make use of the new capabilities faster and better than anyone else, and respond to things other people do with the Skywalkers quickly as well. And of course set up the defences against the attacks that we can foresee, which mostly initially will include combining our old defenses with the new three-dimensional environment as best we can.
Raises hands to chest level and extends index finger of left hand upwards. "I've thought on it. The decision was not trivial, but I consider it the best option out of the main two."
Skywalkers are an easy, low-hanging fruit for sealing. It isn't difficult for ninja to come up with WMDs, so the natural assumption was that they already have them and the world is in a state of mutually assured destruction. Skywalkers are special in that they're an adaptive tool instead of a destructive weapon, that can be used for great increases in efficiency without triggering a MAD response. Still, the decision made between hiding ourselves and the techniques until we can, essentially, stop them from being taken from us by anyone who happens upon us and giving them to Leaf in order to use the early adopter advantage to conquer the world before the rest have time to react was a difficult one. Both contain terrible risks to the world. The option to destroy the seals was not considered because, one, it's not like Skywalkers or something of similar impact is difficult to come up with, two, the world has to be saved regardless, so choosing no action is an eventual loss.
Sidenote: The thread, at least, went to great lengths discussing the matter of how our inventions are a danger to the world but how the world is already screwed without intervention and how we need to be extremely careful to limit the damage caused by the next big war as best we can while still figuring out a way to steer the world into a more peaceful era.
"Not quite. I am idealistic, but not that stupid."
War to end all wars only works if the war literally kills everyone. There'll always be conflict. The idea is to create incentives to resolve conflict without war, to mitigate damage caused by war and to increase the quality of life of people in general. In this specific case, the mitigation is what we're aiming for because we calculated that we can't stop the coming war.
"Coincidence."
Obviously. And we'd say that either way. What's the point of this question?
"This. Exactly this is the reason I wish to speak with you, and people like you. Please tell me more."
I am not special. There's plenty of people who don't want humanity destroyed, and yet we're in a situation such as we are. I want to talk over the two competing solutions I've come up with - conquest and cooperation - why I prefer the latter, what the real obstacles are, who are the people who could be convinced to work towards these goals or already are and why the world looks like it does right now. You have this information that I want. Please don't just dismiss me by saying something like that, engage me on this matter. It is literally my chief goal in life to fully understand and then solve this specific problem.
Eyeroll.
Well that's helpful. Thanks.
"Ah. Projectiles. Wait, no - that's not the issue. I've thought about upgrading sensor seals but there are power issues and I don't know enough about ordinary defenses to be sure what needs to be taken into account."
That is to say, in less Nara-speak, point defences are simple. We've got skywalkers, we have to have a million ways to take out an approaching target. The issue is that we need to be able to accurately detect said target at a distance in full three-dimensional battlespace before we can do that. Ordinary radar or chakra radar is one thing, if we can get the resolution high enough, but there's all the ninja tricks that can be combined with Skywalkers starting with countering radar with Henge - they have a lot of infiltration tricks that we don't even know about, and there have to be lots of defences against such tricks that we don't know about and we have to consider how all these combine with aerial mobility. If I had to guess, there'll need to be multiple types of defensive sensors complementing each other, probably combined with actual air patrols to check suspicious activity. I think the only really effective way for many of them is going to be turning the problem of volume into a problem of surface with a dome shield of some type (for sensing, not actual blocking). This is all for suicide bombers and relatively close-quarters stuff, however. For actual aerial bombardment from extremely high, there'll need to be other measures which still have to hinge around preventing enemies from getting in a position to do that, because if we're just defending against the attack itself they'll figure out a way through eventually.
We would need to learn about ninja techniques for operating in low-oxygen environments to figure out the effective height limit of the area we need to cover, but I would assume it is very high. However, we'll quickly arrive in a region where we can basically declare 'anything that moves here is treated as an enemy and immediately vaporized', which eases up limitations on weapons deployment. Of course the main issue is still sensing things, but above the clouds there's little cover to hide behind. (Check for ninja tricks again, however). We probably need to set up these sensor platforms or whatever they are with active countermeasures either in the form of a ninja fast response unit or sufficiently powerful seal-based weaponry, prepared to automatically immediately destroy anything detected in the area.
However, this is all largely unimportant speculation. We don't know enough about what's already been done and what capabilities both sides have, let alone what defenses Leaf has or needs, to be able to contribute real solutions effectively yet. And given that nobody else has Skywalkers yet, there's time.
A puzzled frown. "Huh. I'm not sure whether to be happy or sad for him."
Good for him. I'm glad he had a secure environment to spend so much time in, though I'm sad to hear that he had no peers he thought trustworthy and capable enough to help him. However, our different situations aside, Skywalkers can not be 'countered'. They aren't a single attack or defense, they're a tool that combines with all the other tools available to vastly expand the possible capabilities of the user. That's why they're a paradigm shift and not just a new fancy toy. You can counter someone dropping rocks on you from great height, you can counter people trying to infiltrate your position from above, you can counter recon outposts in the sky. You can't counter the fact that the battlefield is now three-dimensional. It's not possible to come up with every possible combination of techniques with Skywalkers and individually counter each one and then all the counters to the counters and so on, especially when we don't know any more than a small fraction of techniques out there. We have to adapt to the new situation and come up with broad changes in procedure and we'll still be caught off-guard. We need to make use of the new capabilities faster and better than anyone else, and respond to things other people do with the Skywalkers quickly as well. And of course set up the defences against the attacks that we can foresee, which mostly initially will include combining our old defenses with the new three-dimensional environment as best we can.
Raises hands to chest level and extends index finger of left hand upwards. "I've thought on it. The decision was not trivial, but I consider it the best option out of the main two."
Skywalkers are an easy, low-hanging fruit for sealing. It isn't difficult for ninja to come up with WMDs, so the natural assumption was that they already have them and the world is in a state of mutually assured destruction. Skywalkers are special in that they're an adaptive tool instead of a destructive weapon, that can be used for great increases in efficiency without triggering a MAD response. Still, the decision made between hiding ourselves and the techniques until we can, essentially, stop them from being taken from us by anyone who happens upon us and giving them to Leaf in order to use the early adopter advantage to conquer the world before the rest have time to react was a difficult one. Both contain terrible risks to the world. The option to destroy the seals was not considered because, one, it's not like Skywalkers or something of similar impact is difficult to come up with, two, the world has to be saved regardless, so choosing no action is an eventual loss.
Sidenote: The thread, at least, went to great lengths discussing the matter of how our inventions are a danger to the world but how the world is already screwed without intervention and how we need to be extremely careful to limit the damage caused by the next big war as best we can while still figuring out a way to steer the world into a more peaceful era.
"Not quite. I am idealistic, but not that stupid."
War to end all wars only works if the war literally kills everyone. There'll always be conflict. The idea is to create incentives to resolve conflict without war, to mitigate damage caused by war and to increase the quality of life of people in general. In this specific case, the mitigation is what we're aiming for because we calculated that we can't stop the coming war.
"Coincidence."
Obviously. And we'd say that either way. What's the point of this question?
"This. Exactly this is the reason I wish to speak with you, and people like you. Please tell me more."
I am not special. There's plenty of people who don't want humanity destroyed, and yet we're in a situation such as we are. I want to talk over the two competing solutions I've come up with - conquest and cooperation - why I prefer the latter, what the real obstacles are, who are the people who could be convinced to work towards these goals or already are and why the world looks like it does right now. You have this information that I want. Please don't just dismiss me by saying something like that, engage me on this matter. It is literally my chief goal in life to fully understand and then solve this specific problem.
Eyeroll.
Well that's helpful. Thanks.
Last edited:
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Tell your dream to stop reading the fucking story notes!!!
That's nothing. Nobs has one for a jilted ex.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Huh. Even I did not expect that. I'm assuming we can ask Kagome follow-up questions; @eaglejarl, @Velorien, @OliWhail, is that correct?
Now, zeroth priority, i.e. survival. Should we run from Leaf as fast as we can?
Let's assume that Kagome is even slightly correct about Leaf. The Hokage is hiding somethig (such things as scorch squads), and Kagome knows it.
Kagome spoke to Jiraiya about lupchanzen, scorch squads and child-vivisection, who then relayed that to the Hokage. The Hokage laughed it off, possibly winning a deception check against Jiraiya.
The Hokage knows Kagome knows. If Kagome is right, the Hokage has reasons to pay attention to him. Now Kagome said all that.
The room we had this talk in was probably not secure enough to protect from someone on the Sage's level. We were worrying about talking about scorch squads and Tailed Beast breeding programme here, in fear of Leaf hearing it. We then proceed to talk about something even bigger, right next to a hypothetical ridiculously powerful enemy who probably would rather nobody knew it.
So, should we run? Or is it too late for us now?
If it's too late, and my first plan actually did kill us all, know that I have no regrets. FOR CURIOSITY.
Okay, assuming we're not dead, what should we do about the new information? Make a list, of Kagome's claims:
(I think that's everything.)
Things to do with it:
Now, zeroth priority, i.e. survival. Should we run from Leaf as fast as we can?
Let's assume that Kagome is even slightly correct about Leaf. The Hokage is hiding somethig (such things as scorch squads), and Kagome knows it.
Kagome spoke to Jiraiya about lupchanzen, scorch squads and child-vivisection, who then relayed that to the Hokage. The Hokage laughed it off, possibly winning a deception check against Jiraiya.
The Hokage knows Kagome knows. If Kagome is right, the Hokage has reasons to pay attention to him. Now Kagome said all that.
The room we had this talk in was probably not secure enough to protect from someone on the Sage's level. We were worrying about talking about scorch squads and Tailed Beast breeding programme here, in fear of Leaf hearing it. We then proceed to talk about something even bigger, right next to a hypothetical ridiculously powerful enemy who probably would rather nobody knew it.
So, should we run? Or is it too late for us now?
If it's too late, and my first plan actually did kill us all, know that I have no regrets. FOR CURIOSITY.
Okay, assuming we're not dead, what should we do about the new information? Make a list, of Kagome's claims:
- There was a lot more people in the past.
- At one point 'Dummy' was killing 300,000 people per year.
- You need 'lifeforce' to live: it's the reason the 'eternal henge' immortality doesn't work.
- There is an 'original' transformation technique: henge that doesn't drop if hit.
- Charka beasts (partially?) originate from the ninja of the past who messed with original henge.
- There is a method of resurrection/brainwashing: kill people, change brain, put it back, push lifeforce into the body.
- There are 'psychic chakra rockworms' deep beneath the ground.
- There are 'air demons'. 'They like to blow in through your ears and sit in your brain, whispering for you to kill everyone.'
- Tsuchikage is controlled by a chakra beast. (By a psychic chakra rockworm?)
- This is the reason behind Rock's isolationist policy.
- There are mind-controlled ninja in Wind. (By air demons?)
- Nobody from Wind is to be trusted.
- Beer in Sand is laced with mind-control drugs.
- Sand-nin keep drinkable water for themselves and make everyone else drink beer.
- The forehead protectors are originally for defense against sky squids.
- Sky squids eat brain with their tentacles through (preferably) forehead, or anus.
- The Sage of Six Paths had a brother, 'Dummy'.
- They were stupid.
- The Sage of Six Paths and Dummy are effectively immortal.
- Because they can move lifeforce between bodies?
- Immortal through body-surphing and the use of original henge.
- The Sage and Dummy have periods of cooperation, and periods of animosity.
- The Sage's agenda is to bring world peace through niceness.
- Dummy's agenda is to bring world peace through power.
- At one point, the Sage and Dummy tried preaching to unite the world.
- They created major bloodlines to unite people around powerful clans, and created Leaf to unite the clans into villages.
- The Sage is the first mednin.
- He gave everyone chakra.
- He can move lifeforce between bodies.
- He created major bloodlines by encoding special ninjutsu into people.
- Dummy is the jutsu hacker.
- He created Ten-Tails
- He may not know lifeforce-moving.
- He invented the Shadow Clone, the Flying Thunder God, the Poison Vomit.
- The Sage and Dummy didn't know a lot about sealing.
- Ten-Tails was created by Dummy and went rogue.
- Dummy and the Sage worked together to split it into nine Tailed Beasts.
- The Nine Beasts are under Dummy and the Sage's control.
- Senju Hashirama was the Sage, Uchiha Madara was Dummy. Their 'animosity' narrative was artifical. They created Leaf to force the creation of other villages.
- Madara/Dummy's sharingan could do different things because the Sage spliced a lot of various powers into him.
- Sarutobi Hiruzen is the Sage.
- The reason Leaf is so nice is because the Sage brainwashes people (see above).
- Whirlpool was founded by the Sage and Dummy.
- As a R&D station.
- The Sage incoded the Shadow Clone into Dummy's bloodline, which backfired: everyone he touches has their chakra ripped out of them and reformed into clones, which explode.
- Dummy is not ageless at the moment, because he can't touch anyone.
- Dummy's residence is Rain: weather patterns and chakra-saturated rain (and chakra beasts?) are due to his presence.
- Originate from Ten-Tails, who was created by Dummy and split into the bijuu by him and the Sage.
- The bijuu are under the Sage and Dummy's control.
- Jinchuuriki are possessed by the bijuu.
- Yagura is possessed.
- Gaara is possessed.
- It's the reason Sand is 'so big on puppets.'
-
- One-Tail: Sand?
- Two-Tails: Demon?
- Three-Tails: Mist.
- Four-Tails: Is lost?
- Five-Tails: Bear.
- Six-Tails: No record for 50 years.
- Seven-Tails: Unknown.
- Eight-Tails: Cloud.
- Nine-Tails: Leaf.
- Was founded as a R&D station by the Sage and Dummy.
- Whirlpool created lupchanzen: half-animals, half-plants that body-contol people, and obey the orders of their creator.
- Whirlpool was attacked because the other nations learned of the lupcanzen.
- Whirlpool disappeared.
- The lupchanzen are known around the world.
- Nobody mentions them because they don't want people to reverse-engineer them.
- Kages' hats have anti-lupchanzen protection.
- The lupchanzen are split into two factions.
- Faction 1: wants to contact Whirlpool, recruit sealmaster under 'the Watchers' cover.
- Faction 2: wants to kill everyone who hurt Whirlpool.
Things to do with it:
- Figure out how Kagome could have learned/inferred each fact.
- Figure out which facts are probably correct (if any), which are disinformation (if any), and which are delusions (if any).
- Figure out follow-up questions.
-
- Akatsuki.
- Hidden Depths.
- Elaborate on chakra beasts.
- Whirlpool revenants.
- Clan Uzumaki.
- Lupchanzen farms. How the Hidden Villages tamed lupchanzen?
- Why didn't the Sage and Dummy ensure that the lupchanzen would recognize them as their creators? Why they permit the lupchanzen conspiracy to exist?
- Summoners and the summon realm.
- Lifeforce.
- Chakra's nature.
- The world before chakra.
- 'The Devouring Sun.'
- It probably won't hurt to talk about the scorch squads, Muri Fortress, Leaf's Tailed Beast breeding programme and the like. We would hardly be digging themselves deeper.
- Mari's eyes, seriously. It is a good opportunity to ask about it, and it is somehing worth asking about.
- Questions to check Kagome's beliefs for inconsistency.
- Or just ask him how he learned it/figured it out.
-
- Find ways to verify these facts independently from Kagome.
- Possibly through retrospective.
Last edited:
- Location
- Yes.
@Noumeru
- Going to state for the record that if the Hokage is the Sot6P we're screwed already and there's no point in running. Literally, we may as well assume the Hokage isn't the Sot6P and that Kagome is mistake about the Sage's current location.
- Need to ask Kagome about Uzumaki revenants.
- And how lupchanzen managed to be tamed by the Hidden Villages, if they (some?) apparently hate them for wiping the Uzumaki.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
1. I don't think that the Hokage being the Sage is an instant-loss condition. It's possible that we could cooperate with the Sage, or that Kagome is mistaken about his motivations/methodology/capability/etc. in some crucial way.
2. I believe the term was 'Whirlpool revenants', though yes, perhaps we should ask about clan Uzumaki as well.
3. Added.
- Location
- Yes.
Why would he, instead of (say) putting lupchanz in our ears? Or do his kill-rewrite-revive bullshit?
If Kagome is smart enough to deduce that the Hokage is the Sot6P he's smart enough to deduce his motivations sufficiently.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
That processes may have downsides. Brain damage, risk of death, loss of Hazou's special condition (the hivemind).
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- Location
- Finland
Not paranoid enough. What's to say he hasn't already rewritten us? After all, our philosophy basically matches his?
I don't think this is trivially so.
- Location
- Yes.
You do realize this will convince everyone we're crazy and have us locked up/killed, right? No more WMD experiments.
- Location
- Elsewhere
Let me get this straight. According to Kagome:
All that leaves is Hidden Cloud as the the one potential beacon of not-being-run-by-immortal-monsters among the major villages.
In summary, the good guy is actually Orochimaru, and everything else is fucked.
Sand is run by one Bijuu,
Mist is run by another,
Rock is run by a psychic chakra beast,
and Leaf has historically been run by the Sage of Six Paths. In addition, the Sage's brother currently runs Rain and was co-founder of Leaf.
All that leaves is Hidden Cloud as the the one potential beacon of not-being-run-by-immortal-monsters among the major villages.
In summary, the good guy is actually Orochimaru, and everything else is fucked.
Last edited:
- Location
- Finland
Why do you think the Sage would be just one of the top people in Leaf? Or even just in Leaf?
Well obviously Leaf is where he runs his social experiments to make the world more peaceful. But you're right - anyone with power would be suspect. Clearly the Sage is Teuchi. Nobody would ever expect it. Alternatively, he's Kabuto - after all, he's a med-nin.
Rihaku
The Internet
It's actually not clear to me whether Kagome was saying that Sarutobi is SoSP or just a brain-hacked resurrectee of the SoSP. If lupchanzen are Zetsu and Dummy is Madara, SoSP might be Nagato or Naruto.
But there's still so much that doesn't make sense. Why would Sage and Dummy not give themselves admin privileges over the lupchanzen if they were involved in their creation?
But there's still so much that doesn't make sense. Why would Sage and Dummy not give themselves admin privileges over the lupchanzen if they were involved in their creation?
- Location
- Elsewhere
No, no, no. Kabuto is a spy for Orochimaru's resistance group. Just look at his interest in Bloodline traits; now that we suspect that Dummy and the Sage were behind the lion's share of them, his interest gains new meaning.
- Location
- Europe
