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For what it's worth, I have not really factored in the post that you quoted into my analysis of if Kagome's story is true or not.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
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I will point out that jinchuuriki being complete meat-puppets is one of the points that are most likely to come mainly Kagome's paranoia fueled speculation.
If the bijuu are unfriendly superintelligences, Naruto has had more than enough freedom to wreak complete havok, above and beyond what he would gain by waiting to become Hokage or something. In order for the meatpuppet thing to be true you have to give a plausible explanation of what motive the meatpuppet has for acting like a bratty kid. (remember Jiraiya mistook Hazou for Naruto for a second)
Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
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I am pretty sure he has a good reason to believe this (given he is Kagome); i.e. - there is almost certainly a true thing from this we could glean that would make Kagome think that.
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
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Define "Almost all" and "some basis in truth" more precisely and I might think about taking the bet. As it is those terms are too vague and there are definitions of them that I would rank both above and below 9:1.
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
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Remember, real world conspiracy theorists also start from true facts.
Kagome has the mindset of a conspiracy theorist.
It's more likely that the bijuu have massive influences on the host if the seals wasn't designed properly. Hence the Mizukage being a total jackass.
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
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- Left of Center
Right, that there's a sliding scale of bijuu influence is much more plausible and consistent with our observations. Meatpuppets are not.
Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
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I'd have to go back and reread, but to clarify I would say that with the (possible) exception of a statement or two, everything he says has been prompted by information he has encountered that lead him to generate his hypotheses. Given that we know something about Kagome and how he thinks, we can generate possible data points he might have encountered, and then generate more reasonable hypotheses to explain that data. Further, I don't think this will be exceptionally challenging, given that we know QMs started from canon, and what events they're trying to explain.
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Before we get ourselves killed doing invisible ink experiments: @OliWhail @eaglejarl @Velorien Given what Hazou knows of sealing, is there any reason he can think of that it wouldn't work?
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
Sure, that I believe. That said, there's a gigantic space of possible interpretations for sparse data.
I can absolutely see the actual world being very different from canon and Kagome just happening to come upon an interpretation that looks like canon (40%). This is @eaglejarl we're talking about, he loves trolling us.
Edit: Also keep in mind that the QMs actively detest canon worldbuilding.
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
We never got an answer to the first question.
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Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
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Yes, but conceptspace is unfathomably big to start with. I still think this still narrows it down considerably, to the point that we might have a decent shot at reverse engineering the precise details of the setting (or at least including something that is mostly accurate among a dozen or so other interpretations.)
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
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- Left of Center
I agree with that, with the caveat that similarity to canon at any level smaller than major details (existence of the Sages, high level histories of villages,etc...) and character personalities isn't really evidence for or against any specific interpretation.
Rihaku
The Internet
Hm... the Sage & Dummy prefer to replace kids without families or prominent contacts... in other words, orphans. Wonder if the Sage is Naruto. It would kiiinda explain the weird story Hazou heard about Naruto and Gaara's fight, as well as Jiraiya saying that Hazou resembles Naruto philosophically.
Plus, the Sage is usually the Hokage, and Naruto really wants to be the Hokage. Not nearly enough data to draw anything approaching a reliable conclusion, but on a meta level it would be a somewhat elegant in-universe way to explain Naruto's overpoweredness.
Plus, the Sage is usually the Hokage, and Naruto really wants to be the Hokage. Not nearly enough data to draw anything approaching a reliable conclusion, but on a meta level it would be a somewhat elegant in-universe way to explain Naruto's overpoweredness.
We don't know what the threat will look like, but I think it pretty much confirm what we're going to do anyway.
1) Ninja need to stop fighting each other. It's completely idiotic and an eventual existential threat, a fact that Shikaku failed to contradict.
2) Develop world changing technologies.
3) Increasing the survival rate of civilians, therefore long term growth.
All the conspiracy theories did was shook us out of our complacency and false sense of security. We'll also need to remember not to be like Kagome-sensei who see enemies everywhere, like thinking Kabuto is an enemy agent(maybe or maybe not). It's not good for us to be jumping at shadows and hurting someone innocent after all.
What is Hiruzen's nickname?
"The god of shinobi".
What was Hashirama's nickname?
"The god of shinobi".
What was the Sage's nickname?
Huh?
Huh?!
Naruto being the Sage ('s child) is regular series canon after all. Sort of. In a twisty reincarnation way where Naruto has his "energy" and a predisposition to certain actions, but not actually the consciousness.
Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
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- Snarksville, Snarkland
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- Maybe?
Hm. Okay, again at the risk of just saying this because I'm attached to my previous belief:
When you are interacting with a sufficiently smart person, and you feel a certain way, then the way that you feel is the way that you are supposed to feel.
In other words, "Sure is convenient that Shikaku inhabits a social framework in which he gets to "respect" somebody by putting them off-balance. I wonder who that benefits."
When you are interacting with a sufficiently smart person, and you feel a certain way, then the way that you feel is the way that you are supposed to feel.
In other words, "Sure is convenient that Shikaku inhabits a social framework in which he gets to "respect" somebody by putting them off-balance. I wonder who that benefits."
Nolrai
weak to fangs
- Location
- Porltand
Yes I am pretty sure he acted like that in order to make the revelation you quote happen. It seems like a good course of emotions for hazo to have from his point of view. Be scary and threatening, then get to set himself up as a benevolent not-quite-teacher. Now raw intelligence does not lead that sort of manipulation necessarily (look at Keiko's family) but I see no reason he wouldn't be trained in social interaction and apply his intelligence to it.
See I doubt this, because how would Kagome know? His priors would strongly prefer possession rather than containment, because it's worse. (That's how paranoia works, and why it short term can be a good idea...being that cautious long term has big issues though, especially with how humans don't update on new evidence enough.)
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- Location
- floating away
Yeah, either: A) he meant to manipulate us/put us off-balance and we have to downgrade our assessment of his benevolence, or B) he didn't mean to, and we have to downgrade our assessment of his social intelligence. And we haven't heard anything about the Nara being asocial geniuses like the Mori or whatever, so I'm heavily biased towards A.
Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
I think the answer is "yes", hence: