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If the countermeasures are fuinjutsu related, then it's either Itachi, Konan, or Sasori doing it, in increasing order of likelyhood. If it's jutsu related, then it's probably Konan, Kisame, or Itachi. If it's both, then that more or less leaves Konan and Itachi.

[…]

3) How Exactly

So, are the countermeasures ninjutsu or fuinjutsu? I would think that it would be quite difficult to pull off a general purpose summon popper jutsu, that seems like it would be so horrifically unbalanced that the setting constraints would essentially demand that it be impossible to craft. Perhaps in a limited form a jutsu would make sense, but I interpret "meaningful countermeasures" to mean that this is something that can be deployed at battlefield-scale and without much effort in the moment, or could otherwise be prepared on site in advance. I would think sealing would be the better option there, since the chakra diffusion effect is a thing.
Not voting in this, but an observation that I haven't seen anyone make yet. Konan is a chakra entity at least 150 metres across who can control paper - including paper seals - in her radius. Orochimaru explicitly warned us that she uses this to assemble and activate seal arrays on a battlefield timescale.
Naturally, this is not solely a disrupting tool. She rapidly arranges and activates seal arrays mid-combat. She is a jōnin-level sealmaster and consequently has access to a variety of tools. If you recall my note on her intelligence, you will understand why she is exceptionally deadly as a result.

It would surprise me quite a bit if Akatsuki had a seal array that could destroy Summons over massive ranges. It would surprise me a lot less if Konan had some kind of seal array covering one or a few Zones that pops summons who are inside it when activated. Her time is limited by the fact that she acts as Kage of Rain - but we have no idea how much multitasking capacity she has, so that might not be a true limitation for her.

It's also worth noting that Oro described Konan as:
She is quite the genius of ninjutsu creation and perhaps even my equal in that regard. However, where I have spread my attention amongst the elements and beyond, she has focused single-mindedly on her paper-style ninjutsu. She has several particularly lethal tools as a result.
Given Orochimaru's notoriously low assessment of our Sealing skills, I'm going to read that "perhaps even my equal" as "at least an AB higher than me" (given that we've never heard of Oro being especially focused on TH that I recall); Konan sounds like she has TH in at least a 70-slot, maybe higher, enough that the rules the rest of the setting has to follow about what ninjutsu can and cannot do may not meaningfully apply to her. It certainly seems possible that she could design custom techniques intended to work with a seal array she knows how to make.
 
Orochimaru explicitly warned us that she uses this to assemble and activate seal arrays on a battlefield timescale.
But paper sealing as a whole has a lower power ceiling. We've been told that repeatedly. It's the sub-disciplines that carry more impressive power. Paper seals simply cannot channel that much energy, and must pass a high threshold of "why wasn't this invented before now?"

If paper sealing arrays can channel more power, and bypass the second check, then what is the (effective) difference between a Rune and a Paper Sealing Array?
 
Not voting in this, but an observation that I haven't seen anyone make yet. Konan is a chakra entity at least 150 metres across who can control paper - including paper seals - in her radius. Orochimaru explicitly warned us that she uses this to assemble and activate seal arrays on a battlefield timescale.
This is true but only helps with deploying seal arrays, and doesn't modify what seal arrays and paper sealing in general are capable of.
 
It has been a meme for 5 years about how dumb Jiraiya was for not Summoning the other Bosses.
Did the meme include calling Tsunade, Orochimaru, Kakashi, Itachi and Kisame dumb as well?
On a related note, did you know that Mist kills half its ninja students during the exam and that their civilians killed a bunch of their ninja, and that's why going from Mist to Leaf is the best possible option?
Wait, I thought the Katsuyu thing was quest canon, what with her tiny territory on the quest 7th Path map and her enormous size and her willingness to travel to Arachnid slowly by land the moment she heard of the problem and... Well, the rest of my reasons to think this might be due to faulty memory. Was there no indication of this during the battle against the Dragons? Or somewhere else in this quest? Was it just player chatter and my own half forgotten wiki binging from ages ago?

- - -

Unless you had the Iron Nerve, but that was a distraction.
Uh oh. Uh fucking oh. Do any of you think our aunt is a Runecrafting slave now?

A: In private, after everyone else went to bed, Mari approached you about a failsafe. If you die, she is willing to spread the knowledge about Elemental Mastery nukes. Although she does not know the actual jutsu, all that anyone really needs is "if you make a jutsu that cools the air enough, this is what happens" and you're off to the races.
You know what's fun about this? Orochimaru doesn't currently know anything about EM nukes. So we would have to break OPSEC to Orochimaru in order to make him aware of the efficacy of this dead man's switch. On the one hand, Orochimaru is the person who is already the most likely to be able to make all kinds of WMDs, even before we taught him Runecrafting. On the other hand, he could use this betrayal of ours in order to torpedo our relationship with all kinds of people, like Naruto, Tsunade, Shikamaru and maybe even Kei.
is it bad that i am still in favour of destroying the world in case he kills us?, from a player perspective losing team uplift is a game over and the world may as well not exist afterwards. Forcing a win/win or lose/lose scenario is the only way to keep him honest; also considering what orochimaru does, this may as well be considered a mercy kill if oro is the undesputed winner.
Yes. It is bad. There are more Uplift-minded people in the world and Orochimaru isn't anti-Uplift per se. Having Hazō be willing to play chicken with the whole world in order to increase the chance of his personal survival is terrible for his continued characterization. It would make him worse than Pain, by a mile. Orochimaru playing along, only to later find a way to disable our dead man's switch and kill us would make Orochimaru the unironical hero of the story.
This was at effective PS 44.

I think the bigger issue a lot of the playerbase is having is that we have seen zero evidence of these large seal arrays in the story despite having access to the vast majority of Leaf's seals and Jirayia's sealing hoard. As far as I can tell, the main source of information we have on sealing arrays is an ooc comment EJ made a few years ago:

If we had any idea that you could do something as crazy as pushing away all Nature Chakra from an area with paper seals, we would have devoted more time to this technique over the years. Furthermore, the fact that Sasori or Konan could work nature chakra into sealcraft despite not being a summoner, despite Hazo failing to to figure out even the vaguest detail about nature chakra, would break the suspension of disbelief of many players. Personally, I would feel like the Akatsuki are being granted an extra ability that does not make sense with the observed setting (and I have heard other players say the same).
I want to note that, just like Hazō has stumbled upon things in the world (and beyond) that have revolutionized his sealing abilities (more than once), the same can be true with Sasori and Konan. Maybe advanced array-sealing is up there with Minato-sealing and maybe Konan figured out the trick after leaving Jirayia and maybe the XP investment required isn't crippling, it being a stunt or a few research projects instead of a whole new skill.

It would strain my disbelief if Sasori had developed Rift-opening seals and anti-Zoo Rush Seals and done...literally anything else, really.
His sealing skill has been high for longer than Hazō's. And Akatsuki likely knew about Zoo Rush since before Sasori had a good way to go about researching rift seals.
 
Seems plausible that Sasori could invent a sealing array that would block summon or nature chakra from one zone. This would probably be about as difficult as Jiraiya's "block all fire/lightning chakra from the zone" seal arrays.
Given enough setup, or teaching the seal to konan, you could tile a large area with these arrays.

Is this possible? Totally. Did they do so? Unclear.
Critically, Sasori doesn't have SC, and is limited to one project at a time. He also had to re-puppetify his body, aquire new puppets, and work on rift-openers. He probably didn't have time to research a new Jiraiya-tier seal before starting Hazou's rift sealchain, but IDK. Maybe he prioritised it over rebuilding his puppet collection, or he just works faster than I expect.

Given that Kisame's dad was a summoner working alongside the Wakahisa, the Akatsuki should have been able to forsee this strategy even without the BotG, and I feel like the QMs ended up doing us a favour by reminding us that our enemies can invent countermeasures to.
 
Why would Akatsuki actually bother with creating an anti-summoning array? They are literally only 3 summoners who can fight in their level. Plus we're all scrub chunnin so none of are summons will be significant threats to them. And it would shut down summoning for Itachi and Kisame. It's a huge investment for what the threat profile looks like
 
His sealing skill has been high for longer than Hazō's. And Akatsuki likely knew about Zoo Rush since before Sasori had a good way to go about researching rift seals.
My impression is that a powerful countermeasure would need to be static.

I'm also of the impression that the Akatsuki who aren't notably pro-social (for S-rankers, anyway) don't really care about Rain - certainly not enough to go develop complex sealing arrays to defend it, or any other static location.

So the total time he's had to develop this stuff has been since the discovery of the Rift, and during that period he's had a lot of competition for his research-time.
This would probably be about as difficult as Jiraiya's "block all fire/lightning chakra from the zone" seal arrays.
We have those?!
 
Whether or not we're requesting a lore update/interlude, we should start talking about what exactly that meeting looks like with Oro. It's happening soon either way.
Approach via SC, portray our runes as mostly just the ability to defend Leaf from attack/siege so that Leaf will be willing to join in the attack, plus Noburi to enable Boss Rush and Essie Rush. Suggest we team up with leaf ASAP, and assure him that Naruto will play ball(revealing our secret orders if needed).

This does mean downplaying or de-emphasising RER2.0, because we don't want Oro to try a rift assault with just uplift(less likely to succeed, and he'll murder us afterwards).
This isn't a big loss, as we really don't have the stealth to hide for Akatsuki senses while setting up, or the chakra to set up, and the setup for RER2 spam isn't very compatible with the better strategies of teaming up with Leaf for Boss/Essie Rush.
 
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We have the notes, but we haven't researched them. Jiraiya invented them, and their research notes were included in his sealing stash.
To be clear, and without weighing in on how easy something is to research or how strong it is, we were told these are an effect size of like, a zone, same for the others like the see invisibility one.

It's quite different from a massive island spanning array or whatever (in the context of a sealing array being the explanation for Nagi being immune to summons).
 
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To be clear, and without weighing in on how easy something is to research or how strong it is, we were told these are an effect size of like, a zone, same for the others like the see invisibility one.

It's quite different from a massive island spanning array or whatever (in the context of a sealing array being the explanation for Nagi being immune to summons).
I am aware, but they've had plenty of time to just set up hundreds of arrays in every vaguely nearby zone.

See my comment earlier this page:
....This would probably be about as difficult as Jiraiya's "block all fire/lightning chakra from the zone" seal arrays
Given enough setup, or teaching the seal to konan, you could tile a large area with these arrays......
 
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I am aware, and addressed this in my first post on the subject, earlier this page.

Here was the conversation, for your convenience.
I know and saw that already, sorry, I was clarifying for the sake of FS/the original context of whether you could feasibly cover all of Nagi like this (now we can be reasonably certain that was Pain's doing). FWIW I don't think this method is a practical way to do so but it hardly matters now I guess.

The main thrust was "island spanning effects" is not something arrays are known to be able to do, and presumably the assailants would've noticed a million seals scattered everywhere with this strategy anyways.

Seems plausible that Sasori could invent a sealing array that would block summon or nature chakra from one zone. This would probably be about as difficult as Jiraiya's "block all fire/lightning chakra from the zone" seal arrays.
I do not buy this.

Jiraiya actually knew lightning and fire elements pretty well, whereas Sasori is not a Summoner and does not have Sage Mode. Even knowing what nature chakra is after speaking to three of the world's most knowledgeable people on the subject, and being a Summoner in his own right, has not allowed Hazou to interact with it in any way, or even distinguish it from normal chakra with sensory tech or any other tools.

(Also like, Jiraiya is supposed to be better than Sasori at sealing so I'm not sure about comparing their top sealing feats like this but shrug.)
 
I know and saw that already, sorry
np. FWIW, almost immediately after posting I edited my post for more courteousness and better tone. Seems you unfortunately saw it before I could rush in the edit.

I do not buy this.

Jiraiya actually knew lightning and fire elements pretty well, whereas Sasori is not a Summoner and does not have Sage Mode. Even knowing what nature chakra is after speaking to three of the world's most knowledgeable people on the subject, and being a Summoner in his own right, has not allowed Hazou to interact with it in any way, or even distinguish it from normal chakra with sensory tech or any other tools.

(Also like, Jiraiya is supposed to be better than Sasori at sealing so I'm not sure about comparing their top sealing feats like this but shrug.)

Fair, but I still put Sasori researching it within the realm of "seems plausible". Maybe the seal wasn't quite at the limit of Jiraiya's ability, and it seems he researched it ~18 years ago, probably at lower Sealing than he had when Hazou knew him.
 
That said, this is not a minor change and I am quite upset about it. As I'm sure y'all are aware but I want to reiterate for anyone who hasn't considered the implications, this effectively removes Boss Summoning as the tool for which it was advertised (having an essie in a pokéball). It would not have been available to use for the Fire Cave, for the Squirrel Nin, or most of the combats in the quest so far. I expect that pattern to continue. Cannai will not come into play for the virtually any combats whatsoever. I don't care if we can't use him for regular unstags, but if we get jumped by Hidan, having him available to Summon is a literal lifesaver, that's gone.
"Advertised" seems like a bit of a stretch -- have we ever said that Boss Summons would be an essie in a pokeball?

Regardless, I appreciate both the fact that you're sharing this with us and the effort that you put into being kind about it. I'll bring it up with the others and we'll double-check our reasoning.

As an aside, I would be tremendously interested to know how a sealing array might fare against a RER barrage. I prefer to assume 'not well', rendering this largely moot.
We haven't discussed it, but RER2.0 does seem like it would be moderately effective against paper. </understatement>

And Akatsuki likely knew about Zoo Rush since before Sasori had a good way to go about researching rift seals.
Note that Zoo Rush happened in Chapter 469, which was 3 years ago IRL (October 7, 2021) and 2 years ago in game (first half of January, 1070 and it is now March of 1072).
 
I expect that most people will lightbulb-react. (It's what I would do if I could react to my own posts.) Even prior to the definitive QM statement we could have suspected that they saw the Zoo Rush and felt threatened by Leaf, and once they had a meaningful static location to defend it makes sense that they'd develop countermeasures.
You underestimate how little I think of the Akatsuki. Or at least you think too much of them yourself. If they were regularly capable of doing things of impact proportional to the strength of their powers, the setting would look very very different. Therefore they are idiots.
 
"I put a SEAL on a PIECE OF THREAD. Before that, oh Sage, I took a hemisphere and I... oh no, I turned it upside down!!

"What's he going to do next, eat soup with a spoon instead of pouring it on his head and licking at his face? The madman must be stopped! We can never let such heights of ingenuity tarnish the great pillars of ignorance that we have built!
I forgot how good this omake is.
 
Another reason why I wouldn't expect Akatsuki to develop anti-summon capabilities: their existing advantages are already well-suited to beating most non-jonin summons. It's not like they lack large AOE effect (Deidara, Konan). So this would be difficult research to accomplish a task they are already good at.

Meanwhile the simulation so far has never included sealing effects with very large range. Even Jiraiya's hoard, which had high-end "nope" arrays against whole categories of jutsu (sort of like the current situation), couldn't do better than a short range, short duration unwieldy array.
 
I forgot how good this omake is.
Speaking of which ...

@eaglejarl @Paperclipped @Velorien , would it be possible to threadmark (as Apocrypha) the two omakes below? They both seem long enough/amusing enough to merit it, and as it stands it's difficult to find them unless you already know they're there.
Itachi nodded.

"Your words from that time have convinced me that you have too much value to simply eliminate, either for your ongoing contribution to Akatsuki deaths or because you risk becoming an obstacle for our objectives. You may stay in Leaf and continue your work of Uplift. So long as you do not interfere with our plans, we will not interfere with yours.


[...]
There was no time left to think. Itachi was about to leave, and Hazō's answer had to come, fast. He could not condense the absurd amount of thoughts he was considering, unless...

"Yo."

Itachi looked somewhat surprised.

[...]
 
Well I'm too late for it to matter (took a break from the thread for the last week or so), but for a long time my theory on why boss summons don't dominate high level combat had been that there are jutsu (maybe mostly requireing journeyman stunts, since that'd explain why we haven't seen them) that are very hard to defend against but only deal a small amount of damage (e.g. roll attacks at a huge bonus but can only deal a capped small amount of stress, or can inflict stress but not consequences), so the best ninjutsu-specs out there can quickly pop summons, even ones that are overall much stronger than them.
Under this theory, Jiraya would've had some way to defend Ma and Pa against such attacks as long as they stayed close to him, and some few summons, such as the Salamander boss and maybe Mandā, have defenses of their own that make such attacks less effective, which would be why Hanzō of the Salamander could rely on summoning in S-rank combat, but for other summoners it's useful but can't be counted on (even when not up against Akatsuki).


That Pain kid? He's older than you (and also was the most powerful individual in the world at the time)

Hazou's Shadow Clone meets with Oro while Hazou Prime infuses and/or researches runes so dangerous that Hazou reasonably believes failing at such a difficult task could end the world as we know it.

8 people have voted [X] Armageddon Initiative
...

...maybe I need to amend my not-voting habits.

I think the bigger issue a lot of the playerbase is having is that we have seen zero evidence of these large seal arrays in the story despite having access to the vast majority of Leaf's seals and Jirayia's sealing hoard
There are a couple of arrays that affect a single zone we've seen, and it would make sense to me if this happened to be something the Leaf sealing tradition de-emphasized and was more common among Sand- or Rain-trained sealmasters

Furthermore, the fact that Sasori or Konan could work nature chakra into sealcraft despite not being a summoner

This, on the other hand, would be surprising to me

Hazo failing to to figure out even the vaguest detail about nature chakra

I still think we should revisit that with a better research approach. I have some ideas which I should write up at some point.
 
The reason boss summons don't dominate high level combat is simply because they're has never been more than 6 people who could summon one and have enough chakra left to not immediately get killed
And of those people, it was explicitly described as one of their main tricks, so like... it kinda just does show up in high level combat? Where else would Summoning a Boss be?
 
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