Uh. Okay, so I don't want to take words out of the QMs mouths, but we're all but gotten confirmation that Naraka does not do amnesia/dementia like that... sorta.



So, this is hard confirmation that Jiraiya isn't getting anything more than exp drain if he comes back at all. He's either all there or he's fully dead (probably the former, since we know he was mostly there as of the seance).

This is also fairly strong evidence that this holds true for other Uplift characters, as I can't imagine EJ being any more willing to write Akane with dementia.

And, finally, I'd argue that this is weak evidence that Naraka just doesn't do dementia. Why would, in simulation terms, Jiraiya come back okay but Pain comes back wrong? I don't want to put words in the QMs mouths, since I really like the sentiment they have there, but I also don't see how we could reasonably reach any other conclusion.
I can confirm this to be true - IIRC some people were deeply upset and frustrated at that posibility so much that @eaglejarl had to explain that it would be horrible - narrative or otherwise to have that kind of amnesia thing in this quest. It's a straight up WOG that such a thing would never part of the narrative.
 
I can confirm this to be true - IIRC some people were deeply upset and frustrated at that posibility so much that @eaglejarl had to explain that it would be horrible - narrative or otherwise to have that kind of amnesia thing in this quest. It's a straight up WOG that such a thing would never part of the narrative.
To be very specific, we have denied the possibility of dementia, not amnesia. It is entirely possible that Jiraiya will come back with full cognitive function but also no memory whatsoever of any promises he made or debts he owed you.
 
Feels racist to say they're not dragonriders
I think you already understand why this specific statement is difficult to take seriously, why IC Galbatorix would absolutely have been widely considered the last Dragonrider until Eragon got famous, and why OOC people would generally not not have [the entities in the spoilers] in mind when discussing the Dragonriders specifically.

Even if not, my initial stance is that Eragon was never the last Dragonrider, so big shrug about any of this tangent.
 
To be very specific, we have denied the possibility of dementia, not amnesia. It is entirely possible that Jiraiya will come back with full cognitive function but also no memory whatsoever of any promises he made or debts he owed you.
As long as he comes back with full cognitive function, honestly.

Amnesia is an artistic heartbreaking tragedy that can generate interesting character arcs. Dementia is neither artistic, nor interesting. It's just tragic.
 
I think you already understand why this specific statement is difficult to take seriously, why IC Galbatorix would absolutely have been widely considered the last Dragonrider until Eragon got famous, and why OOC people would generally not not have [the entities in the spoilers] in mind when discussing the Dragonriders specifically.

Even if not, my initial stance is that Eragon was never the last Dragonrider, so big shrug about any of this tangent.
Okay but the Eldúnari have been out of the public perception for centuries, the only people who know about them are some few elves, the dragons that everyone else knew about may have been mindless beasts, but they're an entirely different category of character! I stand by what I said. Literal sentient telepathic rocks deserve to be recognized for their dragonrider status.

/70% shitposting, 30% enjoying the chance to talk about the inheritance cycle/
 
As long as he comes back with full cognitive function, honestly.

Amnesia is an artistic heartbreaking tragedy that can generate interesting character arcs. Dementia is neither artistic, nor interesting. It's just tragic.
I could also see, for instance, people coming back wrong - with their mind intact but evil. A Pet Semetary sort of thing. That would be one way that Pain could feasibly come back as a much bigger problem than he was before.

But uh... Why? Why would that even happen in the first place? This isn't a YA novel. Also I don't think the QMs would particularly care to write evil Akane.

Long story short - yeah. If Pain comes back he's probably a bit depowered but sane has the same sanity as prior to his death. Maybe if we're lucky, his bs-level socials are drained and he can't manipulate Akatsuki as effectively.
 
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But uh... Why? Why would that even happen in the first place? This isn't a YA novel. Also I don't think the QMs would particularly care to write evil Akane
Reminder that Pain didn't just die, he sold himself to the king of hell using an eldritch ritual in exchange for the lives of his friends.

Why on earth would the king of hell be willing to take that deal?

Back but wrong is a worryingly plausible possibility for specifically him.

@Paperclipped @eaglejarl @Velorien I hate to be a bother y'all, but any chance we could get an update on the substiution seal mechanics?
 
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Okay?

The glow around the young man was faint now as he stood at the cave entrance looking down at the battlefield.

"How many more times before we're satisfied?" he whispered.

The survivors stood around him, each ready to strike the second he reneged on their deal. He'd already shown them, very slowly, the hand seals he was going to use.

Pain didn't raise his voice the way ninjutsu users usually did. It was even, so very even.

"Outer Path: Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique."

The abomination rising from the ground was every bit as horrific as he'd described. She didn't doubt for a second that it was a demon king from the Naraka Path, something that could only be summoned by a man who was an abomination himself. She needed only to look into its deep, baleful eyes, which were completely identical to Pain's.

The demon's maw opened wide, as if to consume every corpse on the battlefield in a single desecrating bite. But instead, streams of beautiful green light, like dancing kami who'd accidentally wandered into hell, poured out of its mouth and unerringly towards corpses (or pieces of corpses) wearing black cloaks with red clouds. Before her eyes, bones reattached themselves, were covered in flowing flesh, and finally tightly in skin. Fragments of human being drifted towards a single central point and reassembled. Some had to claw themselves out into the open world while the light briefly sustained them. One man stood up, gazing in bewilderment at his hands as if seeing them for the first time.

"It's over," Pain said loudly but clearly. "Thank you for staying by my side, and for devoting yourselves to a madman's dream. If I can make just one more selfish request of you, my friends… find your own ways to keep that dream alive. Even if there are no shortcuts to world peace, humanity can still do it the hard way."

With that, he fell to his knees, and was dead before he hit the ground.

Down below, seven figures left in silence.
 
Okay look, IMO it is a huge and not particularly justified leap to go from
"demon-like jutsu effect"
to
"Hell exists despite no other evidence, Hell has a King, Pain sold himself to that King in exchange for his friend's lives, and said King is of sufficiently human cognition that he wants to make Pain evil instead of eating his brain or something like the actual Out entities we have examples of."
 
I think you may regret making this claim. Excuse me while I rush off to review the afterlife worldbuilding with the other QMs.

Reposted from Discord to add fuel to the fire. If y'all want to go the route of Evil Akane (or simply Anti-Hazou Akane), then the seeds are already there.

Maybe lean into the "not all antagonists are evil, and not all protagonists are paragons of virtue," thing. Akane's a well-developed character with nuance and depth, so it wouldn't be too stark of a change.

Just leverage the aspects of her nature that would find siding with the Akatsuki to be a good thing --maybe even pepper in some doubt and hesitation on her part to show that she's not wholly convinced that the Akatsuki are in the right, but she's seen Hazou's way of doing things and it's not working (or at least maybe not gast enough to save humanity from its downward spiral).

Lots of ways to achieve the route, imo.

You know, not to encourage your evil QM ways, *buuuuuut...*

Akane's had a long time to introspect while in the Afterlife. Her *one* request of Hazou was that he help support her retaining her own identity --outside of him and his grand plans.

Well, Hazou didn't do a very good job of that, did he? Akane was basically forced to pick up the emotional burden of being Hazou's moral compass, and Hazou-the-character knowingly made a WMD out of her, without consulting her (remember, the QMs said Hazou suspected there was a chance for things to go *very* right with the EM Nuke test, that's why he had unusually severe safety measures in place, rather than his standard ones).

I can't help but wonder, given all of this free time to ponder what-was and what could've-been, if Akane would still love Hazou.

If, after grappling with our effect on her life, if Akane would still choose to be with Hazou, if given the chance to do it all again.

Because I think Akane would still love him. I think that, in her introspection, she would trace the lines of Hazou's past, and discover (or perhaps theorize) how he became the man he is. And she would feel a lot of compassion and respect for that, for who he is and who he was.

But I don't think she could love him in the romantic sense, after that. I don't think Akane would believe they would ever be genuinely healthy for each other, rather than the near-worship that even *Ami* called out as unhealthy.

I think Akane would *understand* Hazou, *know* him... and find him wanting. I think she would respect, love, and sympathize for him, but that it would be twisted and conjoined with a resigned sense of "it was always going to end poorly."

Because a relationship needs more than just love to support it. And I'm not sure if Hazou-the-character was able to provide that for Akane.

I wonder just how Akane will have changed, if we manage to find her in the afterlife.

The wild magic/will of land stuff makes ratfic'ing it hard, even though the grammar magic makes it so fricken tempting

Make the planet eldritch as fuck, and ultimately unknowable by the mortal races. Have Dragons, who were spawned from the planet, itself, be the ones to understand the planet the best, and then lean hard on the eldritch/alien nature of Dragons that book 1 featured.

As for the wild magic... eh, Marked for Death does sealing failures just fine, and that's pretty similar. Have magicians agonize over verbiage and grammar of potential spells for years/decades before trying them out, and spell research being a thing that only Stupid Insane Suicidal people do, with very few success stories.

So most magicians only have a small handful of spells that they default to, and only the truly desperate/stupid would break out an incomplete/unresearched spell.

Have people like Eragon (who comes up with spells on the fly) be shown as stupidly rare, and stupidly lucky. It inflates Eragon's status as a Chosen One Protagonist who has a natural, gut-level understanding of magic while bringing the rest of the setting down to a more reasonable level.

Nooooo, I haven't thought about this for a while, whaaaat?
 
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Okay look, IMO it is a huge and not particularly justified leap to go from
"demon-like jutsu effect"
to
"Hell exists despite no other evidence, Hell has a King, Pain sold himself to that King in exchange for his friend's lives, and said King is of sufficiently human cognition that he wants to make Pain evil instead of eating his brain or something like the actual Out entities we have examples of."
Buggy I respectfully disagree with you on multiple points but don't have time to respond in full right now - the strongest disagreement is on the general nature of Outer entities - it has been a consistent portrayal by every character in the know that the things Out there are *not* positively inclined towards humanity, and any contact with them is a mistake.

There's probability space for the jutsu to be a strange 'summon', the same as his normal combat Summons *except* this jutsu requires he fricken die instead of chakra, for some reason - but at that point I'd question *why* it's different and it loops around to the rest of the Summons being traps to incentivize pain to use that one.


There are things out there smarter than us who hate us, gotta step carefully
 
The other quote we have.
"What was the thing Pain summoned to resurrect the other Akatsuki?" he asked.

"The so-called King of Hell?" Orochimaru clarified without looking away from the seals he was placing on Noda's abdomen. "A dramatised misnomer. Even the Sage was not so foolish as to attempt to summon the King of Hell bodily to the Human Path, much less to save a handful of minions. It would be like inviting Tsunade into my home just to… No, in fact it would be like inviting Tsunade into my home. No elaboration is necessary."

Hazō could have laughed, if it had been possible to laugh as Noda's struggles grew weaker with every drop.

"So what was it?" Hazō pressed.

"No. 5 bonesaw."

"What? Oh."

5 was one of the smaller ones, right? Or was it counted from the other end?

Orochimaru accepted the small, fine-toothed saw without comment.

"A marketplace, I suspect, or perhaps a disposal chute. Pain was ever circumspect about the nature of his powers."
 
Buggy I respectfully disagree with you on multiple points but don't have time to respond in full right now - the strongest disagreement is on the general nature of Outer entities - it has been a consistent portrayal by every character in the know that the things Out there are *not* positively inclined towards humanity, and any contact with them is a mistake.

Which I agree with, except in the nature of what they are. They are not positively inclined to humanity in the same way as Cthulhu. Their morality isn't 'evil', it's 'peppermint'.

We got a POV from the Frozen Skein, kinda. That was not evil, it was eldritch. It straight up thought radically differently from a human being even after going through a 'translation' so to speak.

We've seen the dragons. They would fit right in to one of Lovecraft's works.

We've seen Kurama. Despite being inside of, and interacting directly with Naruto's brain, Kurama had significant difficulty communicating effectively, implying a significantly alien mindset.

We've gotten the lore on out entities like Jashin, they all have strongly a-human goals like "change things".


All of this points to a pretty clear picture. This is not a xanxia world with gods and demons and spirits and heavens and hells. This is a cosmological horror story. There isn't a King of Hell, or a Hell at all; Hell is human. So very, very human. Cthulhu does not make a Hell. Cthulhu doesn't even understand the concept of suffering.



There's probability space for the jutsu to be a strange 'summon', the same as his normal combat Summons *except* this jutsu requires he fricken die instead of chakra, for some reason - but at that point I'd question *why* it's different and it loops around to the rest of the Summons being traps to incentivize pain to use that one.
There's precedent for jutsu having really weird side effects - see TLitF. As are jutsus with oddly specific shapes - see WDB.

Beyond that, I don't know why it summoned something that looked like a demon. It could have been a arbitrary effect of the jutsu, put in for misdirection. It could have been a Out entity that predicted that future worldlines would be better trimmed if it took a certain shape. It could have been a ally of Pain. So on.

But 'King of Hell which Pain made a bargain with' is so highly specific and lacks any other substantial evidence that I find it unlikely.

Not to mention, it didn't do anything. It stood there and did the jutsu thing. It didn't taunt Pain and brag about how his soul is forfeit. Nor did it bargain with him. It didn't leer menacingly at the others nearby. It didn't stick around to eat more souls. It appeared, did one thing, and then vanished. Like a jutsu construct.


There are things out there smarter than us who hate us, gotta step carefully
I agree, I just don't think its likely that one of those things is Satan.
 
Reposted from Discord to add fuel to the fire. If y'all want to go the route of Evil Akane (or simply Anti-Hazou Akane), then the seeds are already there.

Maybe lean into the "not all antagonists are evil, and not all protagonists are paragons of virtue," thing. Akane's a well-developed character with nuance and depth, so it wouldn't be too stark of a change.

Just leverage the aspects of her nature that would find siding with the Akatsuki to be a good thing --maybe even pepper in some doubt and hesitation on her part to show that she's not wholly convinced that the Akatsuki are in the right, but she's seen Hazou's way of doing things and it's not working (or at least maybe not gast enough to save humanity from its downward spiral).

Lots of ways to achieve the route, imo.
I gotta feel like if we do "going through the afterlife makes you Come Back Wrong" type of Evil Akane, we can't be talking about "Akane if, on the worst days of her life, she made worse choices and became the worst version of herself". That kind of Akane can only be arrived at organically, not from a malignant external influence.

So what I think Evil Akane would look like, instead, is someone entirely like Akane in thoughts, values, and demeanor, except with one core value flipped. Noumero joked that Evil Akane would just be Kei, but there's honestly something to that. If you took Akane, everything that makes her who she is, and you replaced her endless sunny optimism with bleak fatalism, what would she be like? Would she stop being able to believe in Uplift, if she lacks the burning will to create a better future? She does not have Kei's cold analytical approach to Uplift, she might simply conclude there's no point in any of it, that it doesn't matter if someone dies now or later because nothing can save them in the end. Ingrain that bone-deep, and you have an Akane that's stopped caring about the value of human life, even as she's kind and thoughtful and entirely mentally present in every interaction. She'd love her family and treasure the time she spends with them, and kill people without hesitation because she can't imagine it as a tragedy anymore.

Or maybe she retains the sunny optimism, but no longer agrees with Hazou's terminal values. Everyone happy and healthy? No way, not if Akane has anything to say about it. With the same zeal she once fought to protect the world's most helpless, she'd instead seek to ruin them. She's again all there, every mental faculty fully present, and she'd know that nobody else shares her values, but she'd find Hazou's vision for humanity just as repugnant as he finds hers. It would be an alien mindset, humans don't think like that, even Hidan dedicates his massacres to something greater than him, but if this Akane is the product of an unearthly alteration to her identity who's to say that it must remain something a human could reasonably be? This Akane wouldn't act like Yuno, unhinged and alienated repressing desires she knows to be wrong. She wouldn't act like Hidan, euphoric in the act of murder. She would still be herself in every respect, kind and optimistic and strong, believing in a bright shining future for the world and willing to put her life on the line to make it real, it'd just be a different future. One that stands against everything our Akane once stood for.

There are lots of ways to write an Evil Akane that Came Back Wrong from the afterlife, but I don't think it'd be a matter of inches and degrees, an Akane sent on the wrong trajectory from a small adjustment to her path. Instead, it'd be as if something deep within her was wrenched into the wrong place, a deeply-rooted contradiction alien to her nature that renders her into something anathema to what she once was. The kind of Akane you don't weep to see her fall down the wrong path, but the kind of Akane you weep because something is capital-w Wrong with her and the real her must be in there somewhere, helpless as this new identity impersonates her so perfectly except for the parts that truly matter. That's what I think is most befitting an external, omnipresent malignant influence like what we've seen of the afterlife.
 
Evil Akane idea: The afterlife is the Infinite Tsukuyomi, and Akane is convinced that nobody should be resurrected/everyone should die.
 
Alls I care about if you do some fucky business with the afterlife to make Akane evil, is it has to be consistent. There has to be a rational cause of some sort. It can be alien, sure. But explainable. It has to make sense in its own context. If Akane comes out evil, fine. But then we get to punch the king of hell (or whatever other cause) in the face.
 
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