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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
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- Pacific standard
That's very much a discord phenomenon, I'm afraid. The most recent version of it I can remember resulted in the plan maker requesting literal paragraphs of reasoning supporting a change.
Without reading the rest yet, don't worry. You've got a lock on it.
Yup. I still dislike the word network but it seems to have staying power
Not quite. In order for the daisy-chain mechanic to translate properly you'd instead be attempting to substitute to a normally invalid target that is within one substitution of your seikyū network. The difference is you can't stop at an arbitrary point on the travel path, you need to have an invalid destination with valid transitional points.
Edit: had things backwards, fixed
The ideal would actually be keeping a stack activated on you at all times, then substituting to a seikyū seal directly against your skin to start the chain. Why ever reveal that this is a combination technique?
Again, slightly better to keep the seal on you, substituting to the thing on your person to start the chain
Yup! Chakra magic is wild! This is the one thing that I have confirmation works completely independently of my ideas. You can substitute to climb a ladder, if the ladder has a valid target on each rung.
Correct. The idea here comes from how the narrative and mechanical effects of substiution currently work. You can substitute with up to 2 things before running out of supplementals, 4 if you have your reflexives ready. There's a time, resource, and energy investment- yet you appear instantly all the same. Ninja only get two supplementals, they only have so much magical muscle mass.
Seikyū obeys those rules by having the ninja only front the cost of the entering and exiting substitutions, and having seals do the rest of the work. Each seal obeys those rules by only doing one thing each.
It's kind of a reskinned peasant railgun from DnD, except using actual eldritch machines that break the laws of physics instead of peasants.
It looks like that doesn't work, unfortunately. You confirmed shortly after one of the quotes below that the intent was for substitution seals to have the same limitations as the substiution jutsu, meaning we couldn't cheat the 'solid surface' requirement by using our own body as the seikyū seal's solid surface, then substituting wherever a seikyū seal could be thrown.
Hi unclear on:, I'm Twinnstars, nice to meet you.
No. Same rules, its a bog standard substiution thats been completely gimped to only work on Hazō brand substitution seals.
We probably can't use seikyuu to fly, but it should still be able to follow all the normal substiution rules for gaining and losing elevation (that is, losing elevation is almost always kosher, gaining needs really specific limitations). Telescope+skytower platform +a rope with seikyū seals on little platforms at regular meter intervals should = ability to seikyū to the ground/attached network instantly
Yeah i have no idea on this one until I get more information on how to argue with chakra (finish the technique hacking apprenticeship, lol).
if its easy to make a jutsu for other people to recognize Hazō's substiution markers, yeah other people should be able to use the jutsu if we teach it to them and supply them with thousands of seals. Leaf would fucking love turning all of their jōnin into Minato. Have genin doing nothing but running seikyū highway reset missions.
If its hard to make a jutsu that can be taught rather than a tweak of the substiution jutsu for Hazō's own use, then yay!!! We finally have an s rank trick only Hazō can use! Its punch time!
No, that was a bit of gravy that would let us fly/have ridiculously unimpeded movement. Now we need seikyū inversion/full hiraishin for that. Or maybe just a mod of substiution seals with more forgiving requirements, we'll hopefully see.
The base thing that seikyū relies on is the ability to reach normally inaccessible targets by chaining piecemeal valid targets(climbing the ladder), then doing it on a macro scale by removing the normal costs associated with that bit of magic - the ninja's energy and action economy (enslaving the machines). That's the job of the free energy from seals, thanks.
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- United States
PROJECT UNLOCKED: GitHive
Major differences from Substitution (jutsu) and Substitution (seal):
- Elimination of the mass limits of swapping. The Substitution seal/jutsu have a relatively narrow range of masses where they'll function. Seikyū seals are valid seikyū targets no matter what mass of object they're attached to (or none at all) which leaves 70000 gram Hazou swapping with a 4 gram piece of paper.
- Broadening of the acceptable targets of Substitution seals. Sub seals work on objects. That's sealmaster for "discrete, non-chakra containing" since Hazou contains chakra, and the seals themselves contain chakra, seikyū seals must work on chakra-containing objects.
- Removal of the 2-element nature of the Substitution seal. Seikyū seals do not have a defined number of elements.
- Substitution does not network. Seikyū does, so that you can seikyū to an adjacent Zone, and then emerge anywhere in the network.
- Non-LoS targeting. You cannot Sub (either the jutsu or seal) out of LoS but somehow you can pick where you emerge on the seikyū network without being able to see it.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
I think this is wrong, but I'm far from an expert on this Seikyu thingy that I'm just really reading about now. I hesitate to engage on the subject out of fear of confusing things further... so don't take my attempt at answering you as solid fact. But since twin apparently has you muted, he's not gonna respond to this so here I go.
It seems to me like 1 is implied but may not be strictly necessary for the core function. If each Seikyu seal must be thrown onto a valid 70kg substitution target for the chain to work, that might still be acceptable. Alternatively, if the start and end points are similar in mass, it may not strictly be necessary for each seal along the path to have that same mass if it somehow transfers the 'validity of being a target' to the next part of the chain. Research required.
2 is... yeah idk. Maybe? I'm not sure if broadening is necessarily true, if the Seikyu seals only work with each other that might actually be a narrower range of targets, although yes different. It's a jutsu/seal combo and the basic sub justu lets you swap with things with chakra so I'm not sure whether this would be a significant or meaningful change.
3, I feel this point explains twinnstar's hesitation to use the term network. If it's a single daisy chain creating a path from A to Z, then each seal needs only connect to the one after it and possibly the one before it. and maybe itself or whatever it's placed on if that's a consideration. I'm not sure if it actually needs to connect to the previous seal to be an acceptable target of it. If, someday the technique were to expand from a line into a web with multiple valid destinations, then this might apply. As a first draft, I'm sure we can define it as having 3 or less elements.
The whole concept feels kinda similar to the MARS, tbh. The MARS only needs to connect to 2 other seals, but if one of those is another MARS you can get a massive chain going.
4 and 5 seem to build off of this faulty network idea. I don't think this first draft allows you to emerge 'anywhere in the network'. He explicitly says you couldn't stop at any arbitrary point along the path, you would need to have a specific valid destination. In the case of any Seikyu chain built like a line or road, the only valid destination would be the end of the path. I do think LoS or something similar is still necessary for each segment of the Seikyu to work. As twinnstars himself said, "seikyū relies on is the ability to reach normally inaccessible targets by chaining piecemeal valid targets". So you can get to C, which is invalid, by going through A, which is valid, and from there going to B, which is valid, and now you can get to C, which is valid from B.
You do not 'somehow pick where on the network to go'. You choose to start the chain by substituting with A, a valid target, and naturally arrive at C as a consequence of the Seikyu chain being set up to bring you there. And only there.
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- a
Yandere Yuno force us to give her the Dog summoning scroll?Nearly forgot.
Nooooo
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- Book Fort
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- They/Them
Just gotta get Yuno the Otter Scroll
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- a
You want to.... tell the yandere girl to wait.... for an undisclosed time, probably weeks to months?Just gotta get Yuno the Otter Scroll
Yeah....go ahead
If just you can bring someone, when you summoned yourself to the summon realm huh.
Correct, implied by his posts so far, but not necessary for it to work. I'm not recognizing the minimum requirement for daisy-chaining Sub seals, just what he's saying seikyu seals can do.
It's a difference, I think it qualifies as "substantial" based on how sealing research usually goes, but feel free to disagree.
Shrug. "Daisy-chain Sub seals" is not what was sold to the thread. In fact, when I asked if that's what the idea was, I was told multiple times that I was wrong. So....
Sure, but going from A -> B -> C -> D requires 4 casts of Substitution (jutsu) or 4 2-element seals right now, that's the invalid target referenced. Having the jutsu/seal combo daisy chain is a substantial difference IMO.
Don't really see how you can get around that.
Overall, I definitely agree that designing a single use daisy-chain Sub seal/jutsu combo, while keeping the mass limitation, would be less work. It might even be doable by Hazou with 33 TH and other projects to work on.
It's not what seikyu is supposed to be.
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Huh, the 10 React kind of seems like a "NO" if you only glance at it.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
I can't speak to those previous discussions, I'm just going by what I saw recently between twin and EJ. It's possible you were told 'no' because of how you presented the idea rather than a significant difference in mechanics. Or I'm wrong, sure. Already admitted I'm not an expert.
What matters more is if EJ and the other QMs have a handle on the idea, which after that little Q&A seems likely.
What Seikyu is 'supposed to be' is step 1 in a chain that recreates Hiraishin. If his initial idea of a step 1 is too complex for Hazo to pull off, I'm sure a simpler concept that could eventually lead to Seikyu-as-envisioned would be acceptable. You could complain about it taking more space in the research queue I guess? Seems like a shallow complaint to make before even taking a prep day to examine the idea though.
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- Europe
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He is using it in the most important ways.
This is not the case, it was originally sold as a essie-killing superweapon by itself that would make Hazou the equal of Minato. Or something
Anyway, after a lot of people pointed out the major flaws it was stepped significantly back to its current form.
As it stands, my opinion is that seikyu as it is sold is unlikely to be possible to research with our stats. I'm willing to spend prep days on it, but if they come back "Jiriaya" I'd like to drop it.
Daisy-chained Sub seems potentially (?) possible. But not worth the squeeze to me. Too situational to be worth the research time (how often to do we need to travel 10 Zones in a straight line?). Too vulnerable to disruption to be safe to use (what if an enemy disrupts the chain and traps the new endpoint?).
I'm also willing to spend prep days on those, but again, I'm not excited about them compared to Force Claws, Banshee Lovers, CATEARS, Colored Strobe Seals, Time Runes, Sage Stones, Chakra Potential Runes, EM Nuke Runes, Gamma Ray Laser Runes, Ham Radio Seals....there are more ideas, that's just off the top of my head.
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- UK
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- He/Him
HYPOTHETICAL FRIEND: So, V, what are your players planning these days?
VELORIEN: Oh, the usual. They're going to make elemental nukes, follow up with gamma ray lasers, and then build up to ham radio.
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Don't forget the antimatter! The antimatter is a important step in the plan; comes right after 'macerator filled with really hot water'.
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- UK
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NARRATOR'S VOICE: On that historic day, after many months of research, Gōketsu Hazō finally perfected his most difficult seal yet: a seal that created a macroscopic quantity of antimatter in safe storage conditions.
Unfortunately, it was also the day Hazō discovered he lived in an antimatter universe.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
...
If the idea has changed or been revised a number of times, that's just part of the process. That's pretty normal. Ambitious goals, brought back to reality to make it workable.
If Seikyu is too hard currently, if it needs stats we don't have, then yeah it makes sense to put it off until we have the stats to match it. It's not like I'm even personally invested in the technique, just trying to give it a fair shake.
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- Book Fort
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- They/Them
Or a seal chain to grind up veterancy. Substitution Seals are a good start for that, actually ^.^
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- Washington, USA
How about implementing an explicit well-ordered overall project queue, with a low burden of proof to add new ideas to the far-future end of it, and some sort of procedure to move particular projects forward or back within the queue by, say, one step per vote as priorities shift? If some idea is agreed to be good but gets superceded by short-term concerns, it'll still be at the top of the queue and thus pop in again next time with minimal action required rather than needing to be argued up all the way from scratch, while sketchier "pet projects" churn in a crowdsourced bubblesort.
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I initially read this as implementing an explicit well-ordered overall project grue, which would be a marvellous achievement.
"Well, after three months of beating our heads against the wall, we have to admit that this project isn't going anywhere. Release the project grue! This research never happened, and we actually spent the last three months doing something more useful."
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
On a completely unrelated note, is Hazo β gonna make the Mari of his new timeline cook now that he knows she was faking her incompetence, or is her social wiles gonna get her out of the task yet again?
I wrote it as future tense because I don't think anything has been written on the subject, but it may be more correct to write it as past tense since they've been away from swamp and presumably taking turns cooking for a fair bit by now.
I wrote it as future tense because I don't think anything has been written on the subject, but it may be more correct to write it as past tense since they've been away from swamp and presumably taking turns cooking for a fair bit by now.
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I know this is a joke but this is actually really interesting trivia about physics - you see, there isn't actually a difference.
The reason 'matter' is matter and 'antimatter' is antimatter is pure happenstance. They're the same, just with opposite charge, and 'antimatter' is only notable because 'normal' matter is the predominant type in the universe.
It's actually a important part of physics that things are 'symmetrical' like that. Things are almost perfectly identical across the matter-antimatter divide, except for one or two processes which mirror in space. So the full rule, CPT Symmetry, is that if you flip all the charges to the opposite type, reverse the position in space (mirror it), and flip it's momentum, the resulting system will behave identically to what you started with.
This is actually how I hope to make antimatter, as it turns out. You kinda can't have 'part' of that flip; a physical process has to do the whole thing. So we do the two parts that aren't charge-related, and the charge hopefully follows suite.
So it wouldn't matter if Hazo was made of antimatter; we'd just make normal matter instead.
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Please, please, please could this be a real thing that I can have?
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
Denied.
Man was that a power trip. Woo! I can see why people do it.
Boy howdy, it sure would be a crushing reversal if you went and gave yourself access to this despite me just to spite me. This message brought to you by reverse psychology.