I am fond of the idea of Joe cutting them out of his life and not listening to a word they say. No one is beyond redemption, but that doesn't mean Joe has to suffer from them anymore, waiting for it to get better. They can find their redemption another way if they are so inclined. Signs are not pointing in that direction, but I would be happy to be wrong.
Joe's supernatural blessing of beauty bleeds through to a degree, but he always goes out in his public identity under a physical glamour, so at best they would see he's been hitting the gym and caring about his appearance.
What I see as more likely is that they think he's been doing both those things because someone is being a corrupting influence on him, trying to 'change him' from the harmless and misguided young man he is into something different. Not sure how they'd sell it, but the first step emotional abusers generally take is to resume attempts to isolate individuals and limit other forms of contact or relationships. Attacking their lifestyle. And so on.
Granted, if every person in the Workshop Crew got their own public identity and depending on how effective bringing their Cape personas to Somer's Rock was, he might reuse this tactic in all interactions with them.
If other individuals are gatekeeping Joe's family from seeing him, they pretty much just have the choice of staying away (or badmouthing Joe to everyone who will listen, on social media, his favorite hangouts, people just outside his immediate social circle).
Or good faith reconciliation but yeah, unlikely.
The rationale for the former behavior can vary, but in my experience it tends to be a vicious circular cyclical sort of victim complex, casting the other person as the villain while ironically leaving the door nudged open for that person to 'apologize' and then resume re-education to 'learn their place'.
Personally, I'd classify his Mom as a narcissist with both his sisters experiencing varying levels of the same behavior, though how much of that was ingrained defense mechanisms or not is debatable, upbringing absolutely plays a role there.
His Dad seems to be the Ur-example of Joe's non-confrontational behavior, it's probably why Joe's Mom married him and why she tried to force Joe into the same mould. Joe's Dad is if not happy, then at least content to play the doormat, but going by Joe always getting into sibling fights with his sisters, his not throwing out that Sphere set even though he was doubtlessly harassed repeatedly about it...
Joe is not a natural doormat. He exhibits some of these tendencies, but they are more the result of low self-esteem and lacking confidence. A constant trait he presents is he's going against the grain. He wants to do it his way, and comes to regret taking other people's advice when his own judgment call could have worked if he trusted his instincts more.
Joe's costume isn't edgy and dark because it was more effective that way. His signature weapon isn't spiky because it was efficient or practical. He's a repressed individual who only doesn't seem to be going overboard because he's flash cloned a megalodon and jumped that instead of a great white.
Escalating, resenting other people who escalate, etc. He's a classic Worm protagonist, come to think of it. Full of contradictions.
If other individuals are gatekeeping Joe's family from seeing him, they pretty much just have the choice of staying away (or badmouthing Joe to everyone who will listen, on social media, his favorite hangouts, people just outside his immediate social circle).
I used to be against the idea of Joe bringing the crew into this, but if he makes them take over interactions, it would be a pretty good idea. His family can rant and rave as much as they want, it's not like they'll get to him. He can just change his own number, and maybe leave the old one for texting Alena if he wants to.
The rationale for the former behavior can vary, but in my experience it tends to be a vicious circular cyclical sort of victim complex, casting the other person as the villain while ironically leaving the door nudged open for that person to 'apologize' and then resume re-education to 'learn their place'.
His Dad seems to be the Ur-example of Joe's non-confrontational behavior, it's probably why Joe's Mom married him and why she tried to force Joe into the same mould. Joe's Dad is if not happy, then at least content to play the doormat, but going by Joe always getting into sibling fights with his sisters, his not throwing out that Sphere set even though he was doubtlessly harassed repeatedly about it...
Big Disagreement. In my personal experience Dad's "not wanting to get involved in the drama" is actually kinda a step-up of Mom's projection of fantasies onto her kids. It's him being so lost in the fantasy that he doesn't want to acknowledge anything bad could possibly occur between the kids. There could also be an element of traditionalism, where he doesn't think it's his job to raise the kids. He could not be as deluded, but still not have any issues with Mom's behaviour. Joe's dad is worse at worst, and at best just playing good-cop while enabling Mom.
I am automatically suspicious of the "good parent" who hasn't left the abuser in these kinds of situations, although to be fair that is due to personal experience.
Joe is not a natural doormat. He exhibits some of these tendencies, but they are more the result of low self-esteem and lacking confidence. A constant trait he presents is he's going against the grain. He wants to do it his way, and comes to regret taking other people's advice when his own judgment call could have worked if he trusted his instincts more.
Joe's costume isn't edgy and dark because it was more effective that way. His signature weapon isn't spiky because it was efficient or practical. He's a repressed individual who only doesn't seem to be going overboard because he's flash cloned a megalodon and jumped that instead of a great white.
Escalating, resenting other people who escalate, etc. He's a classic Worm protagonist, come to think of it. Full of contradictions.
I think Joe's infantilizing treatment from his family is less likely to be copy-pasted from Dad, and more likely to come from him being the family baby, being the youngest kid. But yeah, I agree with this. Joe, as with most traumatized individuals, and really as with most people, is not extremely logical or consistent.
All my worries about manipulation, about the behavior of the gangs and thinkers and competing factions came into focus. They were all centered on the fact that I was a lone player, that I was isolated. One person they had to focus on, to talk around and hold to any statements or commitments. Arriving on my own they could dogpile me with rhetoric and try to rope me into some commitment or obligation. No matter how firm I stood I was an easy target in that situation because I was isolated.
But what if I wasn't isolated? What if I wasn't the only factor that needed to be accounted for? What if I couldn't be ganged up on, pressed, and pressured? What if there were other factors that needed to be accounted for?
So basically Joe is going to go to Somer's Rock with the Workshop crew right? That's what this implies?
Good or bad idea?
I personally don't like it merely because Armsmaster and co. will have a justification for Apeiron being so far ahead: he's working with other Tinker. I don't want Armsmaster's feelings to be spared
I mean, all this means for Joe is that the cabal of tinkers and thinkers think he's such a great leader that they're allowing him to absorb almost all the spotlight. Taking down Lung and ABB. GG.
Revealing he runs his own group, and is confident enough to mostly engage entire teams on his own (as far as anyone knew)? No re.
It's a dramatic big flashy reveal. In hindsight it will make sense that Apeiron is backed by other Tinkers / Thinkers, but timing in such a fashion as to only have their public debut during the big Villain Meet all but ensures everyone is left reevaluating their strategies. Joe might finally get to act on his own initiative instead of staying always reactive.
I think Joe's infantilizing treatment from his family is less likely to be copy-pasted from Dad, and more likely to come from him being the family baby, being the youngest kid. But yeah, I agree with this. Joe, as with most traumatized individuals, and really as with most people, is not extremely logical or consistent.
Hey, @LordRoustabout, if you had to put a number to the amount of Debt the Undersiders owe Joe due to the whole healing thing, what would you estimate it to be? And I'm not looking for an answer along the lines of "numbers of meaningless for this debt, it's all about the control and ability to make them tell him what jobs they are doing, etc., etc." I'm just asking because I'm curious, it doesn't need to be an exact number, just an estimate like "a million", "ten million", etc. Just for fun, you know? Not a serious, indepth answer.
If activated in response to an attack the bounded field could partially encompass the attacking effect, providing a tremendous amount of information. The result was an increase of my Mana parameter and Item Construction skill by one rank for the purpose of creating a countermeasure to the attack.
With this power I had been granted Item Construction A+++. That was literally the highest rank possible before the EX designation had to be used to describe abilities beyond conventional behavior. It was as strong as the skill could get before it basically stopped being Item Construction and started being something else.
I asked this question previously, though there was a discussion that felt like it was derailing a bit. I don't think there was a conclusive answer beyond EX being considered more than a standard rank, but that doesn't make sense to me as its still part of the Fuyuki rank system.
Either way, I'm in agreement with you, from the words of Lord, Joe should be making Countercraft items at the EX range.
EDIT: also, as long as he has the materials in his workshop, they get transported to the Bounded Field where Joe does his work, at least to my understanding. He just has to make the mats in the workshop first.
Natalia seems to be a year older? She's graduating while Joe's year are a year away iirc (First year, Sabah event. 2 years medical withdrawal. 3 years total.).
Natalia seems to be a year older? She's graduating while Joe's year are a year away iirc (First year, Sabah event. 2 years medical withdrawal. 3 years total.).
Somewhat belatedly, but if we touch on the potential constellation of reality from the BCF document, it is unlikely that LR will add it, at least in its entirety. Some of the perks are useless for Joe, some he can implement on his own. Perhaps a few of them will be added to the capstone constellation.
Somewhat belatedly, but if we touch on the potential constellation of reality from the BCF document, it is unlikely that LR will add it, at least in its entirety. Some of the perks are useless for Joe, some he can implement on his own. Perhaps a few of them will be added to the capstone constellation.
"These are my team. Fleet, Survey, Tetra, Lethe, and Lunessa, Witch Princess of the Moon." *team poses in their armor with Garment wearing 'what if Sailor Moon was designed by Victorian dress designers but it was fully sealed power armor?' that has a eternally flowing in the non-existent breeze effect*
Brian: "All this time I thought she was my sister."
"Apeiron here, I've made this bangle that makes it so no one will ever go hungry again. Everyone's bodies will be fully fed and kept at peak condition. Food will now be more of a thing for if you want to enjoy the taste. Exact details involving things like weight loss or gain or muscle boosting are on my website."
"That's amazing, and you will give these out to people for free?"
"What? ...Oh, you think you need to wear the bangle for it to effect you. No, I'm just telling you what it does."
"...."
"Moving on-" *ting* "-this earring makes it so no one will ever get sick again."
Joe's made good progress. And his lack of hate for his family is understandable. As is the very real need to break off from them to heal.
His doctor didn't really get that the small powers added up. Which is reasonable. After all, stacking powers would be hilariously overpowered, right? Hahaha.. oh you just crafted a super powerful thing that can keep me safe in under seven seconds while making it look like a tie clip. Oh.
This was a fantastic chapter and well worth the wait. I love how supportive all of Joe's workshop crew is and I'm also glad that there wasn't too much delay before getting into the core of the chapter.
And what a core it is. This therapy session is an improvement on the previous one you wrote which is impressive because that was already very good. Seeing Joe process everything he's been going through with family things was really good and it just goes to show how much a good therapist and a good social support system can help with mental health. Overall your depiction of mental health issues in this story has been top notch and one of the pillars that makes this story what it is for me.
Like several others I'm really glad Joe will be bringing others with him to Somer's Rock. Personally I expect, Fleet, Survey and Aisha. I could maybe see Tetra but Tetra is maybe too revealing. I don't expect the duplicates or Matrix to be included but I suppose I'll find out.
I do admit that I was getting a bit anxious that Joe wouldn't get into any of the Cape stuff this session. The subtext and I know, you know were well handled but I did really want to see Joe discuss that side of his life and then things were interrupted by Item Construction A+++
As usual you knocked the description of Item Construction A+++ out of the park. I definitely get the sense that you care a lot about Fate as a setting and while I'm not into Fate myself I do get the sense you gave it a good showing from other reactions in this thread. The way Joe used the power at the end of the chapter to make that Tie clip was really good it tied the ability into the rest of the chapter masterfully.
I also appreciate that getting a 600 pointer while with Dr. Campbell was what tipped the balance into talking about the Cape side of things. As much as I might have been looking forward to it I understand that it's a really big step for Joe especially with the implications that come with telling people about these things.
The second half of the therapy session was just as good as the first. Though I have to say Dr. Campbell is a very impressive person to be able to stay relatively calm through all of that. Especially with an explicit mention of the Simurgh. I know she's almost a joke for a lot of us in the Worm fandom what with the common pre-Ward idea that she would somehow be friendly if only Eidolon wasn't controlling her but in universe the Endbringers are a really really big deal and you've always done a good job of conveying that.
As I already said the exploration of the noble phantasm at the end of the chapter did a really good job of tying the relative mundanity of a therapy session to the absurdity that is Joe's life now. I'm looking forward to seeing how the Noble Phantasm will be used in the future.
I'm glad that the elemental tendrils basically went away. If nothing else it substantially reduces the risk that other people will be using Dust against Joe. I expect it's also a weight off of Joe's mind. Now he just needs to subtly conjure a storm and wash away the I field.
I am a bit apprehensive about leaving something made with SSS in the hands of someone who doesn't know the risks but I expect Joe has reason to believe it will be safe.
I look forward to future therapy sessions and it's good that they'll be happening more frequently.
And at the very end we get a teaser to the start of Fleet's adventures in Shardspace. That's something else I'm definitely looking forward to.
On another note, the Reference doc has been updated.
And now to my standard rolls analysis.
Roll 1, Alchemy (200) Missed a 1/6 chance of Mixing Mixtures
Roll 2, Magic (300) 1/5 chance of Synchronicity Event.
Roll 3, Knowledge (400) Lots of possibilities missed here. In total 6/19 clusters would have hit. Personally the one I would have liked to see was Star Trek Skills. We would have gotten four of the six remaining skills which would have had a very high chance of getting us Engineering.
Roll 4, Magitech (500) Missed a 1/8 chance of rolling Technomancy and getting Mage: The Awakening Magic
Roll 5, Crafting (600 - 600) Item Construction A+++ This is, as I'm sure anyone who read the chapter gathered, a very big deal. Across the board enhancements to Joe's body and magic along with dramatic increases in crafting time in certain situations and entire new frontiers opened in terms of what he can make.
Roll 6, Vehicles (100) There was a 1/6 chance of getting Titan Engineering which is a rather minor Giant Robot power at this point. Titanfall's Titans aren't that impressive compared to Joe's current abilities. That said it would also be one more unique 100 point perk crossed off the list.
Roll 7, Time (200) Not even close to getting anything the Time constellation is now 600 points or bust.
Roll 8, Size (300) If this came just one roll later we would have had a two thirds chance between Kerbals and Armmaster's power but with only three hundred points we had no chance.
Roll 9, Vehicles (400) Same as previous. Aside from the single 100 point perk in Titan Engineering Vehicles is all 600 point perks.
@LordRoustabout I notice that there were only 9 rolls in a 20k chapter. I assume that was because of editing passes, will you be following the previous rule and adding an additional 100CP between chapters?
There was a typo where the final roll (Magitech constellation) got cut off. It's been corrected. Joe has 500 points banked going into the next chapter.
I feel like that'd be something Joe would want to avoid since it'd anger the gods to say you're one of Olympus (basically equating yourself to the gods) and since it seems like something hubristic.
I wonder if Dust Weaving being from Garment played a role in that. Garment doesn't see dust as fuel or ammo, but instead as a material for clothing/fashion. It's a part of the outfit and not something that can be scrapped or disposed of or else the outfit is incomplete.
I'm still working to get the next chapter ready, and it's looking to be leaner than the last one. As such, I won't have time to get through all the comments before the next chapter, but I wanted to cover a few in this response.
You know if you are looking for other Unnatural Skills you could use, you could use the supernatural levels of Masonry or Woodworking that creatures like dwarves and elves are noted to possess.
Edit: It just occurred to me that you could also add the Unnatural Skills of Weaving, Drawing, Painting, Glassware and Engineering into the mix as well. If you really want to stretch things you could even give him the skill of Mystiokinesis, which while not a proper forge ability, could serve to supplement his magical talents. Manipulating the Mist is after all one of those innate characteristics of inhuman beings who are just better at it than humans and demigods.
Lord has posted a number of comments over on AO3 today, one of which was on the recurring perk
Minor Blessings/Unnatural Skill. Basically he is going to let this run for the remaining major Greek Gods and then put it away.
The remaining gods are Hermes, Ares, Dionysus, Apollo, Hades, Poseidon, Zeus, and Demeter
Each of those already has an associated minor blessing so we don't need to figure that out.
HERMES: Blessing of Inventiveness (God of invention, makes designing new technology easier)
ARES: Blessing of Telumkinesis (Weapon Omniscience version, know and understand properties of weapons, helps with use and design)
DIONYSUS: Blessing of Brewing (Helps with actual alcohol production, but also related chemistry and alchemy matters)
APOLLO: Blessing of Medicine (God of healing, so improved medical skills and understanding)
HADES: Blessing of Ferrokinesis (Sense and have minor influence on metals)
POSEIDON: Blessing of Hydrokinesis (Mostly focused on hydraulic principles and sensing of flow of liquids)
ZEUS: Blessing of Electrokinesis (Sensing and minor control of electricity)
DEMETER: Hardest to nail down something applicable to the forge, probably something involving biology or life.
The problem is, Lord is out of obvious Unnatural skills. We need to come up with suggestions for eight more of them. Remember, these are Monster skills so for instance "Cooking" would be about cooking monster victims aka people.
My suggestions are:
Singing
Weaving
Seduction
Traps
Building (a home if needed to be more specific)
Stealth
Healing
Teaching
I must object on this point: Hephaestus is Literally his Dad, as a matter of fiat.
Keeping in tune with the Celestial Forge's theme of Crafting, here are all of my suggestions:
Trap-making (comes with baiting traps, knowing the most effective spots to place them, spotting and disabling them)
Painting (includes crafting paints, brushes, color theory stuff, etc.)
Weaving
Sculpting (includes pottery, statues, etc.)
Woodworking?
Architecture
Cooking (including but not limited to the unsettling knowledge of how to prepare and cook humans)
Music (crafting songs, crafting and playing instruments, etc. naturally includes voice/singing as an instrument)
Medicine
The guidelines that I'm using for Unnatural Skills are that the skill is in some way appropriate for the Celestial Forge (involves some aspect of creating something) and has a mythological basis somewhere other than a god or hero. I am also trying to avoid skills that are completely encompassed by broader skills that Joe already has. For instance, Unnatural Skill: Potions would just be a more specific version of Unnatural Skill: Alchemy, same with Unnatural Skill: Smithing and Unnatural Skill: Metallurgy. Skills can overlap, but I'm trying to avoid any ones that are entirely contained in by others.
Of the skills suggested Masonry would be possible, but I would probably define it as Stoneworking to be a bit more general. Woodworking or woodsmanship are also possibilities. Singing has mythological basis with creation and is a common ability in myth so Singing or Music will almost certainly be included. Weaving I have already commented on. Medicine could also work. Something like Painting would be appropriate in terms of creation, but I'm struggling to place any painting myths that aren't directly linked to gods. Teaching is nebulous. It has the mythological basis, but is not directly connected to elements of the Forge. If it was received in isolation it wouldn't help Joe be able to make anything, which is why I'm on the fence regarding it.
An important thing to remember is that Unnatural Skill essentially means Supernatural Skill. It takes abilities beyond what is conventionally possible. Unnatural Skill smith is enough to begin making magic items, and any other skill would see similar supernatural applications, which is something that needs to be considered.
The magical protection would be a novel and useful aspect of that perk, but I'd need to get into the series to understand how that would function, they type of magic it was protecting someone from, and how effective it would be against supernatural abilities of various levels of strength. Could be very useful, but I'd need to get a strong grip on the setting's magic system before I included it.
I just went through and classified Joe's Perks
I labelled them as follows:
Things
Item: Joe gets an item
Facility: Joe gets a warehouse extension
Vehicle: Joe gets a vehicle
Resource: Gives Joe a new material to craft with
Entity: Joe gets a living or at least animate being.
Joe:
Ability: Joe gets a special ability like Beast Change or always knowing where things he crafts are.
Personal: Some change to Joe's Body or person
Skill: Joe gets enhanced skill at some non-crafting ability
System: Joe gets a new system of magic, psychic abilities, techbase etc or enhanced skill at a system he already has. It's only a system if Joe can build on the system to accomplish new things.
Set: Joe gets the ability to craft a fixed set of things.
Understanding: Increases Joe's ability at research, reverse-engineering or design
Crafting boosts
Fiat: Joe's creations get a bonus nobody else can replicate.
Class: Joe gets better at a whole class of crafting
Speed: Something which increases Joe's crafting speed.
Cost: Something which reduces crafting cost.
Quality: Something which increases crafting quality (can't be turned off)
Repair: The ability to repair, salvage or rebuild things.
Later today I'll make a page of the spreadsheet that renders everything in that order
That's really interesting work. I use a less detailed system to track information in my own notes. A important thing to consider is the fact that perks can fall into more than one category, with plenty of them granting multiple types of abilities. As an early example, Black Thumb from Mad Max gives mechanic skills, but also the unique ability to repair or work on vehicles while they're still operating. I've had to split off sections of certain perks in my own categorization of Joe's abilities to make sure I keep track of every applicable power.
@LordRoustabout , Someone over on AO3 pointed out to me that the ancient video game Master of Magic is available on Steam in a form that is compatible with modern computers. As I fear I am old enough to have fond memories of playing that game when I was younger and poorer than I am now, I gave it a try. The graphics are horrible, of course, but the gameplay is still interesting if you give it a try. To be frank, I remember it being fairly easy but it was kicking my ass for awhile there this time around. It shouldn't be tooo much of a time sink, esp. to get the hang of the two perks from that jump. One of the freebies, Place of Power, might be a bit OP in Worm since it allows one to cast magic on the worldwide scale. As for the magic system.. Meh, it isn't really necessary to use the perks, but hey, there are rules to bring it into other worlds if you want in the jumpdoc.
I'm aware of the game, but didn't know it was available on Steam. It didn't particularly interest me when I first looked into it, but I can take another look at some point. I think the main challenge would be integrating a magic system like that into a new setting. I already have a few properties I'm trying to work through, so I don't know when I'll be able to get to that one.
He really needs to get some brainwashing power. Then he can erase all his mental problems and character flaws. Create some magical ring or even magical potion that grants him permanent Gamer Mind but better. No negative emotions, no mental problems. 100% ideal godlike mind, to stop wasting time on small problems and use his abilities to their maximum potential.
Well if you can use magic to improve your body why not heal your mind? It is a normal human desire to be well and healthy. Fixing some flaws like need for sleep, small attention span is just a bonus. I refuse to believe that supergenius cant find a way to push his agenda without killing people. Social manipulation is a thing.
I've commented on this before, but there is a very good reason that Joe had been avoiding this kind of thing. Once you change the way you think you can no longer accurately predict what your future actions will be. It is a place where the slippery slope applies since the first part of altering your mind would involve eliminating the problem you have with altering your mind. After that, you cannot predict what kinds of future changes will be made. This was the exact path that Joe was on from his original trigger, and it is the kind of thing that can lead to a very dark place.
There is a very good example of this from Empowered. Neurospear, a telepath who edited his own mind, initially as a means of coping with his powers, but eventually taking him in new and disastrous directions.
I get that there's a desire for immediate results, but Joe is working to change his mind the hard way, through therapy, self-reflection, and building a positive support network. That is much harder than just going in and editing his mental hardware, but it is the kind of thing with checks to make sure that you don't end up going off the deep end, which is a major concern for Joe.
Ok, I have to say something. I usually lurk, but holy frick, when I saw the words about how he gets a rank-up when countering something, that brings his Mana up by a rank, so, D if I'm differentiating Mana from Magecraft.
But connected to his Item Construction?
That turns into Rank EX+++ (if the +'s are kept on rank-up)
Still, as Joe said, Rank EX is something that becomes more after Rank A+++. To even get to the point of EX, let alone the plus modifiers, his Items are superbly powerful. Like, I'm not sure it's close to Excalibur, but he could make a darned good try to replicate it (considering his supplemental powers that make him a Divine craftsman of some form? It may even be possible to make a True Excalibur, but I'm not super knowledgeable about the conceptual weight ascribed to the Sword of Promised Victory).
EA probably is still out of his reach, because EA cheats.
Momentary Edit: So I realized that a Noble Phantasm probably has a bit more to it than just making the Item that the Phantasm is manifested through. Could anyone clarify if Joe could make the true Noble Phantasm Excalibur, or would it just be a "sword?" I'm not super sure if I should ping Lord to ask the question, I want to be polite in terms of net etiquette.
There's not a clear answer to what happens when a skill is ranked up past A+++. The thing is, EX rank doesn't necessarily mean more powerful so much as that the ability in question doesn't function according to 'normal' metrics. Sometimes it works out to the same thing, but there are generally other factors in play. A good example would be Richard I's EX Agility which is based on the fact that his Godspeed skill increases his agility the longer he spends on the battlefield. A servant with A++ agility could blitz him at the start of the fight, but would eventually find themselves outmatched. EX means there are other factors in play that complicate the situation. You don't put pluses on an EX rank skill because any details of their strength would be specific to what justified that EX rank.
That said, Countercraft's rank-up of Item Construction A+++ was indeed intended to bring the skill into the realm of EX. This doesn't mean that Joe can recreate EX ranked Noble Phantasms or anything like that. What it means is that it's taking the Item Construction skill beyond conventional limits since there isn't really a standard power level above A+++ (unless you count (star) level, but that's complicating things). Countercraft is intended to allow the user to counter an attack directed at them. That can mean almost anything from building a weapon to use against the wielder of the attack, making a suit of armor or shield to tank the hit, some kind of mystic code to counter a spell, or just being able to avoid taking the hit. Given the possible attacks that could be thrown around in the Nasuverse there are some where there is no reasonable way to survive them using normal equipment. That's where the rank up comes in to play. With Countercraft activated and a base skill of Item Construction A+++ as long as there is something that can be produced that would deal with the problem, the user would have the skill to make it. Now, having the materials or mana would be another matter, but they would at least be able to attempt to make something. Basically, it lets the user take Item Construction beyond its usual limits, but only in response to an attack. It is very much the trump card of that Noble Phantasm and the kind of thing that would quickly deplete resources, both materials and mana, if used repeatedly.
Additionally, there are still limits, even when going beyond what should be possible with Item Construction. Powerful items can have ruinous mana costs, meaning even if they could be made they might not be able to be used properly. Also, in some cases your options are limited even with the ability to make almost anything. If your staring down Ea you're only real hope is going to be somehow escaping with your life.
I tried to design this as something that could actually function as a servant in a Holy Grail War without any of the other supporting abilities from the Forge. The idea was that Mystic Codes would be produced to compensate for the Crafter's weak stats and Countercraft could be used as a response to other Servant's trump cards. It wouldn't be an easy class to work with and would depend heavily on the master for supplies to feed crafting efforts, but with enough support it could at least be a functional class.
To clarify, these are the limits and characteristics of the servant power when taken in isolation. Adding in the rest of Joe's forge abilities gives a very different story. This power synergizes with Joe's other abilities to an insane degree, taking it to a much, much higher level
+'s are also kinda misused by the fate fandom in general. They're not direct powerups, they're conditional ones. Most of the time it doesn't really come up, even in canon, but however many +s only give their boosts in the right situation. 'Course, for this MC it's practically meaningless. EX is on point, though. It doesn't actually mean 'stronger than is measurable', it means '??????'. That can mean absurd power, but it can also mean 'my speed functions via clenching my buttcheeks so hard space swaps my position with where I want to be'.
The new editions of the Servant Supplement do treat pluses as conditional modifiers, but the older one that I was using treated them as direct powerups. While that's not correct by Nasuverse standards, it is how things function for Joe based on the source of his abilities. As such, Item Construction A+++ is a more powerful version of Item Construction A, with the powerup not limited to any specific conditions.
Joe has millisecond single-item improvement cycles. If his goal is unicron I'd wager under ten minutes, probably less than 1.
The literal hardest and most time consuming part of the entire activity would be to actually reach the decision to make it intelligent with a soul.
It was a plot point in the previous chapter about his resource efficiency means he can use 1 item and get a much better version out it, that is potentially bigger than he started.
Joe does technical work at a rate of about 35 hours per second and can count as a team of 100 people while he works. That's enough to bring small scale crafting projects into the millisecond range, particularly with his skill level, but large powers still take time. Not to say he can't build a robot planet, but you start seeing projects take minutes to complete when Joe hits naval warship scale. Planetary is going to take much longer than that.
Bandit Gunsmith's ability to use a single item as materials for a larger project (at least when all of Joe's resource perks are taken into account) is only useable for weapons and defensive items, and also has no impact on crafting time, only crafting materials. It's significant, particularly when working with projections, but it's not something that will help him get a Death Star built (unless you're only talking about the main gun).
Well, I have powered through all of the story posts and the non apocrypha threadmarks. I still haven't caught up on reading the whole thread (or just Lord's posts as the thread is quite large) but I am loving this! I wished I had found this earlier, but I am rarely on SV.
This story is really one of my favorites, fighting in position in the top 5. Where exactly it lies there I don't know as things continually shift, but know this story has a special place in my heart @LordRoustabout
Wow, this chapter was oddly intense in a satisfying way. I keep enjoying how you tease the grimderp anticipation of worm and then let us down gently into a path that has things going wrong without being excessively blown out of proportion. How things that could be or would be blown out of proportion get their bubble burst by some of the virtues of humanity like trust, friendship, duty, honor, and restraint. I'm grateful that there are worthwhile people pursuing worthwhile goals in sane manner and that these people interact with each other.
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As for Joe dealing with "minor" issues being a major help...
Have you ever been carrying something large and heavy but within your capability, but it's dragging a cord and all of a sudden the cord gets caught on furniture? It's one of those tiny things that just makes the load suddenly problematic. It's like when the bale of hay is just slightly off-center and so starts to teeter off the wagon. It's a minor issue, but it's compounding major ones and the whole thing will be reasonably manageable once the minor issue is removed from play.
I feel the a lot of time overly grim situations result from compounding effects that could have easily been resolved through minor acts of compassion, communication, or just basic agency from characters. That's not to say that it's unrealistic, as there are entire psychological models about how problems can spiral out of control despite them being the responsibility of any number of people (actually, often having dispersed responsibility is a big factor, as everyone thinks someone else will deal with the situation). One of the things I've enjoyed as something of an unintentional theme in the story is how Joe has facilitated other people's ability to make a difference in the situation. Not just in major cases, like empowering Chen, but little things like making sure charitable efforts didn't fall apart at the first generator failure, or providing opportunities for people to step up and manage their own problems. In canon the situations were consistently beyond what anyone could reasonably handle and when you finally got Taylor stepping into a position to make a difference she didn't trust anyone's judgement but her own. Joe has the advantage of wielding a level of power that can trump even the bleakness of Worm, but a lot of the time it's applied lightly, just enough to bridge other people's efforts.
Your point about 'minor issues' was exactly what I was going for in the chapter. Joe doesn't feel like the small stuff is significant enough to be worth focusing on, but knows that it can trip him up at a critical time. He doesn't feel great about that, but is at least able to try to address the problem rather than ignore it in favor of 'real issues'.
So, he brings the hammer down, and in that moment, he's back in Avalon, where he learned his craft from the Fae in the exact same situation that was described when he got Master Craftsman. Time doesn't matter there, in any normal sense of the word. While he's there, he can summon materials from his workshop for the crafting he's about to do, and his hammer then can become ANY tool he learned to use while he was in Avalon the first time. Range for that is self, since he's the only one going under that particular function of the Noble Phantasm. Mana is going to depend on what he needs to do: If he's going to just be building one simpler item, it shouldn't eat up too much mana, though with his Mana at E he will definitely be feeling it. All crafting perks that don't rely on situations where he would be outside of Avalon for can apply. Beauty perks, quality perks, runecraft, his thaumaturgy knowledge, and if he elected to use Elven Enchantment, Name the item, or Sing to the Unseen, those would be options for him. Other things like trying to use the Skyforge would only work if he already had the material prepared beforehand, no Skyforge is in Avalon, sadly.
Once he's done, however long it takes, he comes back with the finished product. Zero time has passed for any observers, and while time surely passed for Joe, it was in a timeless space where normal mortal limitations aren't brought into play.
The bigger use of this is should be be attacked by something bigger. Let's say he's found March and she's doing some really janky attempt to kill him with her version of Sting. He invokes his NP and uses the Countercraft option. Same situation happens, only it now includes details about the attack trying to hit him in depth, and lets him consider, design, and build a counter for that attack all while it's currently en route to his not-so-squishy flesh. He completes a work, this time instead of being for whatever purpose struck his fancy, this time it's a dedicated work against whatever he is facing, and for the purposes of facing this his Mana and Item Creation stats went up. Mind you, Item Creation was already maxed out at A+++. This is the true power of his Noble Phantasm and that's the one that will eat through his Mana, even boosted up a rank, pretty fast. That said, Countercraft is straight up broken as an ability. Facing the Golden Beam of Death? Countercraft, now you have Anti-Stilling protection, or just straight up Scion-killing weaponry if you decided that was a better bet. Simurgh showing up? He already had defenses, but this will give him the time and capacity to make something that would most likely protect an entire city because, of course, she targets an entire city and he's one of those targets. He gets an item that he puts down and activates and the Simurgh won't be able to do anything with her telekinetic tricks. Since she uses those to warp people's minds, no scream, no Simurgh bombs, no chunks of buildings flying at you.
Similar results can be expected for other Endbringers if Joe shows up to them. On top of that, the way this Noble Phantasm works, he could literally be a split-second away from getting squashed by Levi or his water echo and be able to review the information, design a countermeasure, and create it before those strikes hit home.
EDIT: So with further Discussion on the Discord I've come to the conclusion that this is basically Avalon: The Crafting Station with a focus on being able to make something when used instead of hiding out in Avalon instead and preventing any sort of combat damage. If he hadn't rolled Master Craftsman before this perk there would likely be nowhere NEAR the level of synergy present with the perk. Probably would have some similar benefit but not remotely as powerful because he didn't have any sort of patron he learned from beforehand such as the Fae. But, he did learn and that synergy is really brought to the forefront when you're looking at the description of his experience of getting the perk, being in the therapy session, being in Avalon, and being in the Throne of Heroes at the same time.
I can see why Lord took another week on this chapter, and it was well worth it!
That was a very adept summation of the way the Mystic Forge functions. Just a few points of clarification and some additional details.
The hammer's ability to turn into any crafting tool isn't limited to when the bounded field is activated. Joe can manifest it as any tool he wants, a hammer is just convenient and synergizes with his Demigod powers. Any portion of his Noble Phantasm could be manifested freely in the event he wants to make something without activating the effect. He could pull out anvils, crafting tables, crucibles, alchemists sets, or any form of equipment, effectively giving him a mobile workshop. Not that mobile, of course, since you aren't going to be setting up a workbench in the middle of a fight.
Mana cost scales primarily with the size of the item being worked on, since that is setting the bounds of the field. After that comes the complexity of the work. The more Joe has to interact with something the more mana the activation is going to draw. After that the effective time is a distant third in terms of mana cost. The easiest things to make are things that just need to be set up and left along, like potions. Speaking purely from the perspective of the Servant abilities (E-rank mana, no supporting abilities considered) making something the size of a piece of personal equipment would be a very basic use of the Noble Phantasm, so handheld or worn items would be easy to produce. Making something the size of a person, like a full suit of armor or a small golem, would be a more significant expenditure. Large items, like a vehicle or one of the standard golems from Fate/Apocrypha, would be a significant expenditure that would leave a good chunk of E-rank mana depleted. The boost that Countercraft grants to Mana would basically shift each of these by one category, as well as providing more mana to use in the crafting process itself.
Getting into details of Countercraft and how things match up against Sting, you have a different situation if the power is taken in isolation compared to if it is supported by Joe's other abilities. Given the power of Sting, the options Countercraft could provide on its own would be limited. The best options would be the same as what the entities use, avoid the hit or take it somewhere that's not instantly fatal then heal off the damage. Thanks to Joe's combination of abilities we now have one more thing to add to the list of Sting counters, all thanks to the mostly-unused feature of Samurai Jack's Enchanting.
Enchanting is actually insanely powerful when combined with Countercraft. It lets someone "grant magical properties to weapons by marking them with ancient runes" as well as "learn more enchantments by studying other enchanted and magical weapons". The information Countercraft provides on an attack counts as extensive study of any weapon being used. Some very powerful weapons take a huge amount of effort to study in order to break their enchantment down into runes, but the Mystic Forge effectively negates that problem. It would be a mana intense process due to the complexity of the work and the length of time required, but if someone attacked Joe with Sting, either Flechette's main version of March's knock off, Joe could use Countercraft and the timeless nature of the Mystic Forge to make his own version. While it's never been shown in canon, it makes sense that one Sting effect could parry another, if not actually negate it.
This would also work on any other parahuman powers that manifest through weapons that might be used against Joe. Really, Samurai Jack Encahnting mixed with Joe's Noble Phantasm is an incredibly powerful combination.
In terms of the nature of the Noble Phantasm and its connection to Avalon, there are options in Jumpchain for every Fate jump to happen in the same continuity (excluding incompatibilities like Fate/Apocrypha). An idea I've been roughly working under is a continuity between Joe's different Fate abilities (including the King Arthur Jump), essentially drawing from the same universe. That said, if I hadn't written the Avalon segment when Item Construction was rolled the Noble Phantasm would still have largely been the same, but would probably have focused on a time manipulation bounded field without the Avalon theming. It would broadly have functioned in the same way, though with a different expression of the 'timeless' quality.
The Wham Lines of each 600 point perk so far have been great honestly:
Master Craftsman
Build Rome
There's Always A Bigger Robot/Spiral Energy
And now Item Construction A+++
Each one just perfectly sums up the Perk and leads to a just fantastic vision/retrospective of what just happened really shows how powerful each of them are and their importance to Joe.
@LordRoustabout does an amazing job of describing this stuff and this chapter was incredible with the therapy session as well as the vision. Looking forward to possibly another one next chapter since Joe already has 400 points going into the next chapter. Anyways, fantastic chapter overall and I'm looking forward to the next one.
To be honest, none of these lines were something I really considered to be Wham Lines. I was just trying to convey the significance of the event. It means a lot to know that landed. This kind of inspired me to the following attempt, which I hope doesn't come across as too self indulgent.
Wait... could Joe dupe his Noble Phantasm with his clone potion? Because the way it's described, his Noble Phantasm feels less like an item and more a physical manifestation of a perk, leaving duplicates hollow vessels.
Although... if it did work, would the Noble Phantasm be bound to that duplicate of Joe and disappear along with that clone? Or would it enter some kind of shared Soul space for Noble Phantasms.
If that's the case, could it lead to exponential growth? Start with 1, then 3, then 9, etc.
Also, if he can dupe his Noble Phantasm, could he exploit it the same way EMIYA does? Breaking his NPs?
IIRC breaking an NP causes the NP's grade to go up by 1 and then gets permanently destroyed after an attack. Explosively. Although, with how the NP is described, breaking it would be like tearing a whole in his soul or something equally terrible. Even if he could dupe his NP, he would probably be very reluctant to break an instance of it.
EDIT: Also, could he put dupes of his NP into that cauldron, strip it of magic, and analyze the crap out of the nature of NPs? The same problem applies with breaking NPs, and this all hinges on him duping NPs, but it would be interesting to see what Joe could reverse engineer from his NP.
Joe's Noble Phantasm is fiat backed and is one of the 'items' that are copied when his duplicates are generated. Like with other questions about harvesting duplicated items for resources, anything harvested from a duplicated item vanishes with the duplicate it came from. Even if the Crucible of Eight Trigrams could break down the Mythic Forge within the duration of the potion, any magic extracted would vanish along with the duplicate in question.
However, it would be possible for a duplicate to overcharge their copy of the Mythic Forge to turn it into a Broken Phantasm increasing its rank to B for a single use, and then destroying it. That is a drastic action to say the least, both in terms of what it could do and in the significance of breaking that legend. Still, with the mindset of the duplicates, you're probably likely to see it from at least one set try it near the end of their 20% time.
Okay, I have to say, I wasn't all that thrilled about the idea of Somer's Rock, mainly because just as Joe predicted, it would have probably been a bunch people trying to manipulate him or get concessions out of him.
Now that Joe is actually bringing his entire team along however... Well, I can only say I am unreasonably, downright stupidly excited for it.
I can already see the people at the meeting having a fucking panic attack. It's gonna be amazing.
The are no words in the English language that can convey the sheer amount of HYPE coursing through my veins right now.
Roust, you bastard. You planned this all along!
No wonder you were hyping up Somer's Rock so hard for the past month
I'm really glad this came across well. I've been seeing some confusion as to why I kept hyping up Somer's Rock or insisting I needed so much time to prepare for it, so I'm glad that finally came together in this chapter.
That's all I have time to cover for the moment. There are some more comments I want to reply to, but they'll probably need to wait until after the next chapter. As I said, still on schedule and should be out at it's usual time, but I will probably be back to the shorter lengths of my recent chapters.
P.S. If Joe already has 500 points at the start of the next chapter, then there is a very considerable chance to immediately catch a 600+ perk. Heh-heh-heh.
P.P.S. The "short chapter" still makes me laugh. For 15k words. Well, it's a sooo short chapter.
What a wonderful and surprising WOG exposition on the eve of the next chapter.
Now that we are close, though, time to start the usual trends of speculation and hopes/dreams for upcoming chapters. First up--how many chapters until Somer's Rock? I'm thinking three, one for shardspace knight shenanigans and the Aisha teaching moments, one for the various alternate point of views (I'm thinking that will be the chapter that occurs after the upcoming one), and then another to cover the preparations/events of Sunday morning before the meeting. I could see the alternate viewpoints taking an extra chapter (remember the 3 chap. Glory Girl interlude?), but with any luck at least by a month from now in real time we should be starting Somer's Rock...just in time for Halloween season.
Next speculation.. what perks could he get in the next few chapters that would have the greatest impact on the meeting itself? I would say since he is taking the Workshop crew with him, anything that increases their number or power/visibility in some way. So, the Feline Companion that comes with Infusionist tops that list by a bunch. Would he even take any Kerbals if he got them? They would be a lot harder to explain than a "case 53" cat person. If he got Hard Science, would he have either the time or the inclination to awaken anyone's psionics? I would bet not, since that would make it more difficult to give them magic as well. He also seems committed to taking the slow road on any further Aura awakenings, teaching and training vs. Ceremonial. If he got You Became A Star, though, I could easily see Aisha riding to the meeting on the Unicorn.
Teaching is nebulous. It has the mythological basis, but is not directly connected to elements of the Forge. If it was received in isolation it wouldn't help Joe be able to make anything, which is why I'm on the fence regarding it.
It might allow for creation of Magical Books, Scrolls and Grimoires that can "supernaturally" give knowledge or even skills to their readers\holders. So some crafting component can be attributed to it. It also can be linked to crafting teaching equipment - non-letal and\or non-damaging but otherwise completely accurate replicas of real gear (think of training lightsabers).
If Joe's Noble Phantasm is Fiat Backed, doesnt that mean that it will restore itself every 24 hours no matter how it is destroyed? Including say, by being used as a Broken Phantasm or by beong thrown in The Crucible of Eight Trigrams?
Couldn't even Joe Prime pull an Emiya (albeit with a much longer cooldown) and Break his Noble Phantasm whenever he really needs to rank it up?
That's really interesting work. I use a less detailed system to track information in my own notes. A important thing to consider is the fact that perks can fall into more than one category, with plenty of them granting multiple types of abilities. As an early example, Black Thumb from Mad Max gives mechanic skills, but also the unique ability to repair or work on vehicles while they're still operating. I've had to split off sections of certain perks in my own categorization of Joe's abilities to make sure I keep track of every applicable power.
Yeah several perks appear under multiple categories. Good point about Black Thumb I hadn't been thinking about it as an ability instead putting it under repair and class. My spreadsheet does black magic to list each perk once for each category.
So, I've always just been lurking in the thread eagerly awaiting each chapter, but something in this WOG drop caught my eye:
If Joe's Noble Phantasm is Fiat Backed, doesnt that mean that it will restore itself every 24 hours no matter how it is destroyed? Including say, by being used as a Broken Phantasm or by beong thrown in The Crucible of Eight Trigrams?
Couldn't even Joe Prime pull an Emiya (albeit with a much longer cooldown) and Break his Noble Phantasm whenever he really needs to rank it up?
Joe does technical work at a rate of about 35 hours per second and can count as a team of 100 people while he works. That's enough to bring small scale crafting projects into the millisecond range, particularly with his skill level, but large powers still take time. Not to say he can't build a robot planet, but you start seeing projects take minutes to complete when Joe hits naval warship scale. Planetary is going to take much longer than that.
I estimated this as $20 million of labor per minute, assuming he has a skill perk that applies to the specific skill. So a modern naval warship would then take hours to do by hand.
What about Calligraphy as an Unnatural Skill? Joe could start writing with supernaturally perfect runes, glyphs, and lettering. Maybe even start writing letters that convey more than what is written. Probably wouldn't translate well to typing, but could grant some skills in font choice.
That would have some hilarious interactions with the Fallen London Correspondence. It probably wouldn't even end as badly as weaponizing neathbow colors... probably. -N THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SUN THE SU-
What about Calligraphy as an Unnatural Skill? Joe could start writing with supernaturally perfect runes, glyphs, and lettering. Maybe even start writing letters that convey more than what is written. Probably wouldn't translate well to typing, but could grant some skills in font choice.
Think tank getting called in on short notice, 3:30 AM, to analyze his decision to change the font on his online auto-correspondence. Joe has just woken up from a supernatural 4 hour power nap and verified the change with Survey, before moving on to breakfast.
en.m.wikipedia.org
