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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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Dylan101 said:
The idea EX means unquantifiable is a common fanon. Ea is directly given a maximum damage of 4000 in canon FSN. EX is canonically something so far beyond the scale that comparisons are meaningless. You can still quantify EX rank stuff. It just makes anything not EX look absurdly low in comparison.
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No, that was just an example Nasu gave, not an actual definition. EA literally scours the local texture itself, it's not actually calculable damage.
 
Dylan101 said:
The idea EX means unquantifiable is a common fanon. Ea is directly given a maximum damage of 4000 in canon FSN. EX is canonically something so far beyond the scale that comparisons are meaningless. You can still quantify EX rank stuff. It just makes anything not EX look absurdly low in comparison.
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I think the idea is that ex is only sometimes crazy powerful stuff. if the ranking are trying to measure an attack with a rating between 1 and 10, ex could be 1000 or it could be F, it's not operating in the same scale the rest of ranks do.
 
Maple-cookies said:
rank ex doesn't necessarily mean better than A+++ it usually refers to not being on the same scale. For example if madness enhancements A refer to a mindless berserker ex could mean obsessed with seeing the master as their child or whatever...
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Execute/Dumbo said:
... [EX rank] doesn't actually mean 'stronger than is measurable', it means '??????'. That can mean absurd power, but it can also mean 'my speed functions via clenching my buttcheeks so hard space swaps my position with where I want to be'.
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So, my understanding of the scale has been expanded, though I do have a question related to...
Dylan101 said:
The idea EX means unquantifiable is a common fanon. Ea is directly given a maximum damage of 4000 in canon FSN. EX is canonically something so far beyond the scale that comparisons are meaningless. You can still quantify EX rank stuff. It just makes anything not EX look absurdly low in comparison.
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this. I've looked up on the Type-Moon wiki (which I do not know the accuracy of) that EX means that it "falls outside of the numerical ranking scale, a value that cannot be quantified under the normal system because it is in a league of its own." (cite: Parameter Rules)

Please tell me if I'm breaking a site rule or something regarding links, I'm not used to posting on here.

EDIT: and I realize we might be derailing from the story. To rerail, what could Joe do with his base skill at A+++? I wonder what Rule-Breaker could do in Worm, as powers are equated to magic after all.
 
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Chaosglory626 said:
I had made a joke before when he got Always a Bigger Robot that he could probably build his own Unicron from Transformers. Now it would probably take a day or two to build a planet sized robot.
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Joe has millisecond single-item improvement cycles. If his goal is unicron I'd wager under ten minutes, probably less than 1.
The literal hardest and most time consuming part of the entire activity would be to actually reach the decision to make it intelligent with a soul.
It was a plot point in the previous chapter about his resource efficiency means he can use 1 item and get a much better version out it, that is potentially bigger than he started.
 
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Joe: Alright guys, we are going to Somer's Rock as a team.
Garment (fashion police): *gestures wildly*
Joe: Garment, no
Garment (fashion police): *gestures decisively*
Joe: Garment, we don't need matching outfits! Garment! Come back!
 
I see him walking into Somers rock with garment, his twins cause you need back up. Survey, the red cloth thing, and as his in her armor for back up to really make a a talent of do not screw with me. I killed a bloody dragon this past week.
 
Maple-cookies said:
I think the idea is that ex is only sometimes crazy powerful stuff. if the ranking are trying to measure an attack with a rating between 1 and 10, ex could be 1000 or it could be F, it's not operating in the same scale the rest of ranks do.
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It really isn't. EX is specifically noted in canon to be beyond the scale so numerical comparison is meaningless. It has always been if an A+++ is 200, Ea is 4000.

The wiki claims it through this translation
Also, a truly exceptional ability score that falls outside the numerical ranking scale is represented by an EX.
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In Japanese however the line is this
また、E～Aの数値に該当しない、そもそも別格な能力値はEXとして表される。
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Which simply states values that do not correspond to the values of E to A are represented as EX. Nothing in the original Japanese states EX isn't numerically ranked, just that it doesn't correspond to the values E-A represent. IE: An A+++ is 200, Ea is 4000

Per Complete Material III for example
EX is in a league of its own, representing powerful to the extent of rendering comparisons meaningless
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Extra actually gave us a ranking for something that isn't on the same scale. IE: (*).
 
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Wow that therapy was beautiful, really showed things off well, loved that the Dr got helping equipment.... hope it doesn't turn into halping, also parts gave me a good chuckle but I can't remember which ones.
 
Nnael said:
Joe: Alright guys, we are going to Somer's Rock as a team.
Garment (fashion police): *gestures wildly*
Joe: Garment, no
Garment (fashion police): *gestures decisively*
Joe: Garment, we don't need matching outfits! Garment! Come back!
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I'm imagining garment running around with an opera mask pretending she is someone else and stop butting into her civilian persona thank you very much!
 
Vodkasheep said:
Well... That sounds neat. So he slams down his hammer and can instantly build what... A dozen giant robots.
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Joe achieved construction singularity last chapter, now it's just about showing off. Bandit Gunsmith and a 15 to 1 resource reduction , means turn 1 item into 25 NOTICIALLY better products that re-apply crafting perks to it at his full x100-thousand-ish crafting speed.
 
kelgamum said:
Joe has millisecond single-item improvement cycles. If his goal is unicron I'd wager under ten minutes, probably less than 1.
The literal hardest and most time consuming part of the entire activity would be to actually reach the decision to make it intelligent with a soul.
It was a plot point in the previous chapter about his resource efficiency means he can use 1 item and get a much better version out it, that is potentially bigger than he started.
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LordRoustabout said:
Larger rebuilds take more time to complete. For small items Joe can make them in fractions of seconds, but once you start hitting the size of buildings even Joe's level of acceleration will require some time devoted to it. For something Death Star size it would be much worse. Joe works over 100,000 times faster than normal (I think my calculations were just under 36 hours per second) and thanks to other perks he counts as 100 people working at the same time, but mega structures are something else. If he stopped working by hand and utilized nanite control or alchemy he could sidestep that, but the 'done before you've started' effect only applies to conventional scale items.

Also, Bandit Gunsmith can only handle weapons and defensive equipment. Vehicles are very iffy and space craft and major installations are off the table. Joe could keep scaling up a gun, but eventually you'd hit limits of complexity where he could only improve the scale, not the technology. His technology ceiling is very high, but it still exists. Joe would also not be able to introduce specialized materials without emulating them with Waste Not. Normally there would also be a cap on the scale of the items, a point where they would collapse under their own weight or cease to function thanks to the principles involved, but Joe sidesteps that with 'Always a Bigger Robot'. With that power he can scale tech infinitely until the point where he can't handle the logistics of the work. He would be capable of iteratively improving a handgun until he had a macro-cannon the size of a mountain that shot skyscraper sized shells .

Also, remember you have two size increase effects in play. Bandit Gunsmith lets him go from pistol to shotgun, then Workaholic triples the scale of what he produces (or makes five copies of it). That was what let him go Ring -> Rifle -> Emplaced Cannon.
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Per WOG Joe can't instantly do that to vehicles like the Death Star, only weapons and armors, plus eventually logistics become an issue that stops things so I really doubt we would see Unicron anytime soon.
 
this chapter was not action-packed but it was definitely fucking hype. Loved seeing Joe's therapist begin to understand Just How Powerful he really is.

now onto addressing the biweekly feminist side-tangent of the thread:
retric said:
I was actually thinking of this perk when I was going through the doc, it kind of seemed redundant, but I can see why it would hit him hard.



Just as a counter point I tend to gloss over age, race, religion, gender, class etc when reading stories or even in real life. Like it really doesn't actually matter even if people get worked up about this stuff.

Granted that may be because I spend a lot of time online where I have no idea who's behind the keyboard.
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people get worked up about this stuff because the real-life implications.

basically; on an intuitive, emotional level, there is little to distinguish between a fictional character and a real person. so to say "I don't have to respect this fictional character's identity along the lines of race/sex/gender/class/religion/etc." is pretty close to "I don't have to respect Real People who share the race/sex/gender/class/religion/etc. of this character". because we aren't fully rational creatures who can draw perfect lines in our minds between "fictional" and "real". inside of your mind, whether or not a person 'exists' is just another category such as the aforementioned race, gender, sex, class, religion and etc.

moreover, the reasons that people give for not respecting the fictional character's identity are often Identical to the reasoning with which people dismiss Real People who share said identity(such as the inciting incident of this week's feminist side-tangent of the thread - the idea that respect for a person's gender-identity and overall personhood is dependent on good or ethical behavior). This, of course, implies that they don't respect real people of that given identity - since they use the same reasoning to dismiss it.

and people not respecting certain groups can lead to policy being designed to hurt those groups and hate crimes and generally make life worse for them. which is, y'know, shitty.

hopefully this wraps up this discussion.



additionally, since we're now on the topic of Fate power mechanics: I'm a little confused on the exact nature of noble phantasms, specifically in reference to Joe's - can someone explain how mana usage, range, etc. come into play? As I understand it, the noble phantasm's power allows him to operate in a zone where time literally doesn't exist, so how would using a little bit of mana to invoke it's power differ from using a lot? is it related to the range of the field? it's ability to summon materials?
 
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Gregory Crey said:
Per WOG Joe can't instantly do that to vehicles like the Death Star, only weapons and armors, plus eventually logistics become an issue that stops things so I really doubt we would see Unicron anytime soon.
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So probably nothing bigger than an EVA or a Kaiju, I think Joe can live with that. Worst case a moderately sized Gundam.

I mean really, how could Joe live with only a mecha where each part is strong enough to fight endbringers manage to be good enough. Especially if it takes entire an entire MINUTE to craft :p
 
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magna85 said:
Ok, I have to say something. I usually lurk, but holy frick, when I saw the words about how he gets a rank-up when countering something, that brings his Mana up by a rank, so, D if I'm differentiating Mana from Magecraft.

But connected to his Item Construction?

That turns into Rank EX+++ (if the +'s are kept on rank-up)

Still, as Joe said, Rank EX is something that becomes more after Rank A+++. To even get to the point of EX, let alone the plus modifiers, his Items are superbly powerful. Like, I'm not sure it's close to Excalibur, but he could make a darned good try to replicate it (considering his supplemental powers that make him a Divine craftsman of some form? It may even be possible to make a True Excalibur, but I'm not super knowledgeable about the conceptual weight ascribed to the Sword of Promised Victory).

EA probably is still out of his reach, because EA cheats.

Momentary Edit: So I realized that a Noble Phantasm probably has a bit more to it than just making the Item that the Phantasm is manifested through. Could anyone clarify if Joe could make the true Noble Phantasm Excalibur, or would it just be a "sword?" I'm not super sure if I should ping Lord to ask the question, I want to be polite in terms of net etiquette.
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On the Discord server we've complied WoG's over the story, here's one that your post reminded me of
It's also important to remember that the A+++ rating is based on the abilities of that skill taken in isolation. When Joe's other skills are considered there is really no way to describe what's he'd be making. Just accounting for Master Craftsman's ability to create divine constructs and the skill would jump to EX level, and one of the most powerful EX skills as well. At the very least, with those two powers Joe could make something like Arondight. The mystic codes Joe would be making are the kinds of things heroic spirits would have carried in their original lives. Being able to use weapons that powerful is another matter, since the mana costs could be ruinous, but Joe would still be able to produce items on that level.
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Well, I have powered through all of the story posts and the non apocrypha threadmarks. I still haven't caught up on reading the whole thread (or just Lord's posts as the thread is quite large) but I am loving this! I wished I had found this earlier, but I am rarely on SV.

This story is really one of my favorites, fighting in position in the top 5. Where exactly it lies there I don't know as things continually shift, but know this story has a special place in my heart @LordRoustabout
 
Dylan101 said:
It really isn't. EX is specifically noted in canon to be beyond the scale so numerical comparison is meaningless. It has always been if an A+++ is 200, Ea is 4000.

The wiki claims it through this translation


In Japanese however the line is this

Which simply states values that do not correspond to the values of E to A are represented as EX. Nothing in the original Japanese states EX isn't numerically ranked, just that it doesn't correspond to the values E-A represent. IE: An A+++ is 200, Ea is 4000
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I mean even outside the madness enhancement, you got Thomas Edison with Endurance, Mana, Territory Creation, Item Construction and NP ranked at EX. the main point I'm trying to get here is that EX sometimes just means it works in a weird way sometimes, I'm not saying that EX doesn't also include the insanely powerful stuff but just that when something is ranked ex an explanation is needed alongside to understand why. (fun side note about Ea, in fgo it was listed as A++ pre-interlude which likely means that's its power level when Gil is not serious )
 
kelgamum said:
I mean really, how could Joe live with only a mecha where each part is strong enough to fight endbringers manage to be good enough. Especially if it takes entire an entire MINUTE to craft :p
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i mean, what if he's got to fight Several Endbringers at the same time? and what if they have Flamethrowers? or Chainsaws? or hybridized Chainsaw-Flamethrowers? Joe can't be caught lacking in the event that he's ambushed by Flamebringers.
Gregory Crey said:
This story is really one of my favorites, fighting in position in the top 5. Where exactly it lies there I don't know as things continually shift, but know this story has a special place in my heart @LordRoustabout
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same! I'm usually not one for keeping up with weekly or bi-weekly releases, but I manage for this story.
 
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