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Brockton's Celestial Forge (Worm/Jumpchain)

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Shadow Archon said:
Yeah, pretty much any WoG about an Endbringer is going to be depressing. Partly because of the seemingly versus debate mentality, (Endbringers have the mass of an entire galaxy, if you throw them into the sun it'll just make things worse, etc.) but it seems that according to the thematic writing Wildbow wants from the Endbringers, getting a solid win against them in a story is akin to writing them wrong from his view point.

It's... frustrating.

Wildbow even wrote about how if Superman ended up in the Wormverse, Superman would totally trigger from being disconnected from Lois and his family eventually, Scion would stop being depressed and feel motivated again since there's an alien to defend the cycle from, and Eidolon would feel so threatened by Clark, the next Endbringers would be specifically designed to perfectly counter Clark but also let Eidolon get pity wins.

Scion would also be able to try and convince the world that Clark is another Endbringer somehow?



I feel like Wildbow isn't satisfied unless things are written always in the style "And then things got worse."
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For a lovely antidote to this superman scenario, I heartily recommend
A Champion in Earth Bet, by Sun Tzu.
 
Subrosian_Smithy said:
he literally says in that very WOG that Superman might still win.
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And where in my post did I say Superman couldn't win?

Besides:

"Even being super generous to Superman, I think it'd be unfair to give him the win vs. Scion, given what Scion is. I wouldn't say it's impossible, but it's not a test of strength." - Wildbow.

Reading that, and coming to the conclusion, "Oh, Superman has a shot at winning" is kind of missing the point I'm making. It's not about if Superman can win or not, it's about Wildbow's view on narratively, Worm-verse has to suck even with Big Blue there. Because Wildbow is putting more weight to the narrative of his universe than over other established characters in these what-ifs. Which, sure, he's the creator of Worm, and that's going to give him a bias, but it's still frustrating to me.

If Wildbow was writing a Superman in Worm story, it wouldn't have a hopeful ending, even if he did have Superman win. He'd be broken, the same way he had Taylor win and get two bullets to her head for her trouble. Worm's narrative, as written by Wildbow, runs counter to typical hopeful endings, and he outright says a "narratively satisfying for a superman story" clashes entirely with Scion having all the tools to handle Kryptonians.

He then goes on that if a new writer comes on board, wipes the story-board, and has Superman win anyways, it be unsatisfying to him.
 
Shadow Archon said:
And where in my post did I say Superman couldn't win?

Besides:

"Even being super generous to Superman, I think it'd be unfair to give him the win vs. Scion, given what Scion is. I wouldn't say it's impossible, but it's not a test of strength." - Wildbow.

Reading that, and coming to the conclusion, "Oh, Superman has a shot at winning" is kind of missing the point I'm making. It's not about if Superman can win or not, it's about Wildbow's view on narratively, Worm-verse has to suck even with Big Blue there. Because Wildbow is putting more weight to the narrative of his universe than over other established characters in these what-ifs. Which, sure, he's the creator of Worm, and that's going to give him a bias, but it's still frustrating to me.

If Wildbow was writing a Superman in Worm story, it wouldn't have a hopeful ending, even if he did have Superman win. He'd be broken, the same way he had Taylor win and get two bullets to her head for her trouble. Worm's narrative, as written by Wildbow, runs counter to typical hopeful endings, and he outright says a "narratively satisfying for a superman story" clashes entirely with Scion having all the tools to handle Kryptonians.

He then goes on that if a new writer comes on board, wipes the story-board, and has Superman win anyways, it be unsatisfying to him.
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TIL Wildbow is the Grimdank version of Terry Pratchett and Worm is Grimdank Diskworld.
 
The who-would-win debates are kind of pointless imo. Especially for truly high level fighters where the 'true' answer is pretty much impossible to know. The winner is whoever the author wants to win, and that's a good thing. You don't write stories to tell people which made up character is stronger than another made up character. You write stories to impart ideas, to entertain (yourself and sometimes others), and to create art. Weaker characters beats stronger ones all the time when that fits the story being told.

Worm, according to Wildbow, is a terrible place that can't be made better by strength alone. Put Superman in Worm and Superman would break, etc. It's a grimdark world.

But Superman, by his very nature as a character, represents hope. Superman doesn't fail like that, not when it's this important. A Superman story is meant to be inspiring and bring people hope.

These two themes clash, to an irreconcilable degree. That means you can't write a story that's true to the thematic ideals of both Superman and the Wormverse. If you do try it anyways then you've decided to compromise the original themes of one or the other.

A story fitting the themes of Worm would go like Wildbow described, but a story fitting the themes of Superman would have him unite people, capes and mundane alike. It would have him bring hope and belief in the future to the setting. He would never break, no matter how hard things get, because that's not what Superman does. Not in a 'his character can't break' way, but in a 'this is no longer a proper Superman story' way. He would be as strong, as smart, as capable, as determined, and as inspiring as he needs to be to win. Because that's what Superman is. He is the third solution. He's hope in a hopeless scenario. He's the dream of salvation when salvation seems impossible.

If you're writing a Superman story, a proper Superman story, and plop him into Worm, the world's grimdark nature will have to break. That means, according to Wildbow, that you're no longer writing a proper Worm story.

That's the dilemma a writer needs to contend with, not whether Superman can kill Endbringers or Scion or whomever else. That's irrelevant. All of them are so strong it's difficult to have a proper frame of reference for them. The scales one has to work with is truly enormous. The author is the one that decides the actionable power level of everyone involved. The ones that win is whomever the narrative needs to win to impart what the author wants to impart.
 
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BethofDeath said:
Difference being that Terry Pratchett could actually create a world that's enjoyable to read directly (instead of via fix-fics and fan expansion/creation of characterization.

And had more of a sense of funny than Halbeard.
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Nah that ain't it; I'm sure that it's a different difference.
Caliburn0 said:
The who-would-win debates are kind of pointless imo. Especially for truly high level fighters where the 'true' answer is pretty much impossible to know. The winner is whoever the author wants to win, and that's a good thing. You don't write stories to tell people which made up character is stronger than another made up character. You write stories to impart ideas, to entertain (yourself and sometimes others), and to create art. Weaker characters beats stronger ones all the time when that fits the story being told.

Worm, according to Wildbow, is a terrible place that can't be made better by strength alone. Put Superman in Worm and Superman would break, etc. It's a grimdark world.

But Superman, by his very nature as a character, represents hope. Superman doesn't fail like that, not when it's this important. A Superman story is meant to be inspiring and bring people hope.

These two themes clash, to an irreconcilable degree. That means, if you want to be true to the thematic ideals of both the Wormverse and Superman, you can't write a story like this. If you do it anyways then you've decided to compromise the original themes of one or the other.

A story fitting the themes of Worm would go like Wildbow described, but a story fitting the themes of Superman would have him unite people, capes and mundane alike. It would have him bring hope and belief in the future to the setting. He would never break, no matter how hard things get, because that's not what Superman does. Not in a 'his character can't break' way, but in a 'this is no longer a proper Superman story' way. He would be as strong, as smart, as capable, as determined, and as inspiring as he needs to be to win. Because that's what Superman is. He is the third solution. He's hope in a hopeless scenario. He's the dream of salvation when salvation seems impossible.

If you're writing a Superman story, a proper Superman story, and plop him into Worm, the world's grimdark nature will have to break. That means, according to Wildbow, that you're no longer writing a proper Worm story.

That's the dilemma a writer needs to contend with, not whether Superman can kill Endbringers or Scion or whomever else. That's irrelevant. All of them are so strong it's difficult to have a proper frame of reference for them. The scales one has to work with is truly enormous. The author is the one that decides the actionable power level of everyone involved. The ones that win is whomever the narrative needs to win to impart what the author wants to impart.
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I feel like this is a "Who would win is whoever the writer wants to win." sort of problem. The question, then, is how any given side of a conflict would win against any other.
 
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Shadow Archon said:
Reading that, and coming to the conclusion, "Oh, Superman has a shot at winning" is kind of missing the point I'm making.
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The "point you made" is that you claimed Wildbow is dedicated to writing "things get worse" plot turns. That's the kind of thing you demonstrate by surveying an author's wider body of work - where it's actually evident in the downturn of Worm and Pact's plotlines! - not by dwelling on power scaling WOG.

Shadow Archon said:
It's not about if Superman can win or not, it's about Wildbow's view on narratively, Worm-verse has to suck even with Big Blue there. Because Wildbow is putting more weight to the narrative of his universe than over other established characters in these what-ifs. Which, sure, he's the creator of Worm, and that's going to give him a bias, but it's still frustrating to me.
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In the context of vsbattles WOG, Wildbow has conceded to the narratives of other universes before. He suggested the Justice League would defeat the Endbringers with some long-term collateral damage - because that fit with their narrative role as heroes who can defeat crisis crossovers but can't end their serialized metaplot. He let Saitama defeat Behemoth in one punch - because Saitama is a joke character who defeats everyone in one punch. He admitted Superman could defeat Scion - because Superman is a comic book character and continuity and power scaling are jokes in comics.

Shadow Archon said:
Worm's narrative, as written by Wildbow, runs counter to typical hopeful endings, and he outright says a "narratively satisfying for a superman story" clashes entirely with Scion having all the tools to handle Kryptonians.
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No. Wildbow says, 'it's a test of Superman being able to come to terms with the morally grey and political aspects of the setting... and at this point, you run aground on the "narratively satisfying for a superman story" part and the fact that even with all that Scion is supposed to be able to handle superman isekais.'

The problem of making Superman's arc narratively satisfying is one consideration in his eyes, based on the complexities of convincingly introducing an inspirational paragon to a gritty setting. Justifying a Superman victory despite Scion's role in the setting and the power scaling of the Warrior's toolkit is mentioned as a separate clause, and a separate consideration.

Shadow Archon said:
He then goes on that if a new writer comes on board, wipes the story-board, and has Superman win anyways, it be unsatisfying to him.
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Do you seriously think a story would be well-written if its author was replaced more than halfway through and their replacement broke that story's continuity, pacing, and lore? Because that's the situation Wildbow is actually griping about as someone who reads comics, not just the idea of Superman winning.
 
It's probably been remarked on by someone else in the past, but I really appreciate the joke that this book has a plot point where someone called Victor is trying to create something living through artificial means.

And it's not a forced reference at all; it fits very naturally in the story given what Wildbow wrote and the mechanics of Alchemy.
 
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Superticus said:
It's probably been remarked on by someone else in the past, but I really appreciate the joke that this book has a plot point where someone called Victor is trying to create something living through artificial means.

And it's not a forced reference at all; it fits very naturally in the story given what Wildbow wrote and the mechanics of Alchemy.
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Huh. I didn't even notice that.
 
The thing is, it's not even creating life that's going to mess him up; if he just wanted to create a human body, that would be one thing; it would be "blank" and possibly unable to develop correctly due to being created at adult size but that's a separate issue. Even moving an existing living soul into it wouldn't be a problem. What's going to kick him in the balls is trying to use FMA Alchemy to pull a dead soul from beyond the Gate; at that point the Guardian of the Gate gets to choose his punishment and the guardian is very much not into clemency, forgiveness, or any of that soft touch fluffy bunnies and kittens junk. Hell, I wonder if Victor would be stupid enough to try using his power on the Guardian? That would be funny. From a safe distance.
 
Subrosian_Smithy said:
The "point you made" is that you claimed Wildbow is dedicated to writing "things get worse" plot turns. That's the kind of thing you demonstrate by surveying an author's wider body of work - where it's actually evident in the downturn of Worm and Pact's plotlines! - not by dwelling on power scaling WOG.
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Why?

Why can't I dwell on his WoG when his stories back up the same conclusion? His WoG just echo what's in his stories, and the point of looking at the WoG is pointing out that Wildbow thinks even Superman showing up would simply continue the trend of "And then things got worse."

And this isn't even a power-scaling WoG, it's not from r/WhoWouldWin like the Justice League one: it's just a What If question from r/Parahumans.

Subrosian_Smithy said:
In the context of vsbattles WOG, Wildbow has conceded to the narratives of other universes before. He suggested the Justice League would defeat the Endbringers with some long-term collateral damage - because that fit with their narrative role as heroes who can defeat crisis crossovers but can't end their serialized metaplot. He let Saitama defeat Behemoth in one punch - because Saitama is a joke character who defeats everyone in one punch. He admitted Superman could defeat Scion - because Superman is a comic book character and continuity and power scaling are jokes in comics.
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Again, I'm not approaching this WoG from a VS Debate mentality, so whether or not Superman wins or loses is really immaterial.

Subrosian_Smithy said:
No. Wildbow says, 'it's a test of Superman being able to come to terms with the morally grey and political aspects of the setting... and at this point, you run aground on the "narratively satisfying for a superman story" part and the fact that even with all that Scion is supposed to be able to handle superman isekais.'

The problem of making Superman's arc narratively satisfying is one consideration in his eyes, based on the complexities of convincingly introducing an inspirational paragon to a gritty setting. Justifying a Superman victory despite Scion's role in the setting and the power scaling of the Warrior's toolkit is mentioned as a separate clause, and a separate consideration.
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No, they're part of the same consideration and are in fact in the same sentence you just quoted. I don't understand what you're getting from the WoG, but it's not what I'm clearly interpreting. Especially since I'm not even focused at all on Superman just winning or losing the fight.

Subrosian_Smithy said:
Do you seriously think a story would be well-written if its author was replaced more than halfway through and their replacement broke that story's continuity, pacing, and lore? Because that's the situation Wildbow is actually griping about as someone who reads comics, not just the idea of Superman winning.
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It really would depend upon how much I liked the previous continuity, pacing, and lore. If I disliked it, I'd be completely fine with the new writer retconning things as needed. It would be like a reverse One More Day.

...I mean, as Worm fanfic readers, we kind of do that all the time, don't we?

But again, I think there's some confusion here, because I'm not saying "Wildbow totally thinks Superman loses!" or "Superman totally wins!" None of that. I'm saying that Wildbow believes that his setting of Worm would break Superman's spirit and the setting would actively find ways to make the situation worse even with Superman there helping.

Even killing Scion would just lead to Broken Triggers, Titans, and the Shard Network collapse eventually killing every Earth anyways. Thanks Ward.

And... that's really it? I don't understand why you keep dragging things back to the VS debate angle*, because I'm merely talking about the narrative Wildbow would write if Superman was in Worm.

Because Wildbow is clearly not writing this hypothetical from a VS Debate angle. It's not a Superman vs Scion WoG, it's a Superman in Worm WoG, and that distinction matters.

*when I mentioned that in my original post, I was talking specifically about Wildbow putting his seal of approval on VS Debate math about Endbringer's having a galaxy's worth of mass and such.
 
Honestly, comics!Spider-Man would be a better fit for the Wormverse than Superman, anyway.

...wait. Would Taylor be able to control Spider-Man? Especially if it's the Toby Maguire version with the biotinkered spider which altered his DNA? 🤔
 
BethofDeath said:
Honestly, comics!Spider-Man would be a better fit for the Wormverse than Superman, anyway.

...wait. Would Taylor be able to control Spider-Man? Especially if it's the Toby Maguire version with the biotinkered spider which altered his DNA? 🤔
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Probably not. Spidey is still human, just weird human. That being said, giving Taylor control over spiders which can give people superpowers would be entirely viable if they can ever recreate that spider.
 
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Garment Gloves Art by Guessmyname (Cosmic)
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    • I also commissioned some emojis for the Discord. Artist is also Guessmyname.
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    • As Crusader can attest, Tybalt is not the one being chocked, but the one doing the choking ("Say Mya name!")
    All the "Terra in wool ball shape" emojis are genius, and the Aisha/Lisa/Taylor/Vista ones are on point.
     
    Tiz Goldeneye said:
    Woohoo, we have a new chapter!

    I really hope Apeiron showing off his teleportation tech gets rid of some of the more stupid "Well the Celestial Forge couldn't have reached a location unnoticed in the intervening space by teleporting between the space, so they must be using stranger effects" we saw in Chubster's interludes.

    Matrix becoming a PRT affiliate is interesting. The "Yes, here is a small device that can alter what you see and hear, don't panic." is absolutely hilarious.

    I imagine a lot of people muttered a "Thank God" with Apeiron in mind at the end there, so that religions vision talk is probably imminent.
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    I just want to see what happens when Apeiron finally has to make an actual afterlife for his believers.
     
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