This is directly contradicted by the known seals/runes doc:
Article: The rune requires line of effect but not line of sight. That means you can shoot through (e.g.) the canopy of a forest but not through (e.g.) a Force Dome.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
[X] Training Plan (Kei & Snowflake): Shadow Step
[X] Interlude: Here's the team, Cannai
[X] Interlude: Here's the team, Cannai
- Location
- United States
Spoons permitting, I might write this up into a short plan. No point in leaving the fun XP on the table. It'd have to wait for the weekend update, because I'd feel terrible if we voted in our first successful Cannai summoning on a day when @eaglejarl wouldn't have the chance to write it.
We can't make substrate, so I have absolutely no idea how you plan to accomplish this. No massed RER fire, we probably have the capacity to do 3 runes and Cannai.
I'd rather just run away our chances are so bad.
Assuming that Oro doesn't have very good reasons not to bring them into the fold, he's not going to go along with this. What this will do is likely get Naruto or Tsunade killed (not Oro) and ruin our chances of stealing the Rift.
I have no idea why you're so focused on the idea of Oro betraying us when the threat of Akatsuki is much larger and more pressing. But it doesn't seem productive and I am not inclined to indulge it.
We can take reasonable precautions, but delays like you're insisting on are too long and too likely to blow the op if they fail.
Ah, thanks, must have been remembering it the wrong way around.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Honestly this. There is literally nothing for Oro to gain by acting against us and literally everything to loose
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I mean that depends how you define 'acting against us'.
If your mean killing us, probably not very much to gain. Maybe he tortures some useful knowledge out of our heads and gets some mileage out of our bloodlines. Who's to say?
But if you mean 'running off with the Rift, providing neither Uplift nor Leaf access', then he has some pretty clear incentives and it's not like there's a lot we could do about it. Contrast the situation where Leaf is present, it's pretty easy to muscle him into bringing it back to a place it can help everyone, not just him.
I would rather Orochimaru have the Rift than the Akatsuki, so I think we should throw in with him, but examining the problem for potential solutions to the aftermath of the fight isn't a waste of time.
The extent to which we're valuable to him drops dramatically once the Akatsuki are no longer in control of the Rift. Given the stakes here (this is a potential path to immorality that we/Leaf credibly contest) it would not surprise me if he decided we represented a loose end once we're no longer in a position to help him out very much.
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Right, I completely agree with this take -- I just think that doing a runaround on him is likely to lead to him killing us and damning the consequences. He is an essie.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah, I don't think we have much of a choice other than some light due diligence before we throw in with Snuncle.
But I object to the characterization of being worried about Orochimaru as being a poor idea or waste of time. That's what I've heard when the topic has been brought up and it's disappointing.
Straw poll: heart-react if, conditioned on our defeating the Akatsuki and Orochimaru stealing the Rift as a route to immortality (e.g. remaining missing) you would be very surprised by him taking action to eliminate us as a threat/rival for the Rift once the conflict was over. This can range from killing us to yoinking all the substrate we have to beating us up hard enough that we're not going to be able to screw with him. Funny-react if that would not surprise you.
E: and I guess meow-react if you have omniscience and you know exactly what he's planning, precluding suprise.
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Letting Hazou run free with runesmithing is a big risk for Orochimaru.
Not only does it dilute Oro's power, but it might significantly increase the risk of a world-ending runic failure.
Maybe Hazou causes a runic failure(he's known for at least one extremely public sealing failure), maybe he shares PS and one of his students(or their students, etc) causes a runic failure, maybe he gets easily overpowered and forced to divulge PS to his captors.
Oro would sleep safer knowing a mentaly unstable Chunin with delusions of grandeur isn't running around messing with the Sage's dangerous secret art.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I'm somewhere between the two -- I think that Oro has some level of respect for us and would prefer not to kill us if we give him an option. If we don't, though, I think he would without hesitation.
If Oro isn't collaborating with Leaf, he'll never know we reached out.
But you think that if Oro is collaborating with Leaf and already in contact with them, he'll... be so miffed that he kills Hazou, despite wanting to ally with Tsunade and Naruto, who Hazou is in contact with? And throwing away all the runic defences Hazou built, despite being about to hole up in Leaf?
That would be a very confusing behaviour.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
To be clear: this sounds like you fully expect us to be killed basically immediately after the Akatsuki are defeated. Is that correct?
What do you mean by 'give him an option'? We're not going to try to stop him if he walks off with the Rift (unless we're seized by some suicidal urge) and if we do intend to get a posse together in Leaf and track him down, we're not going to shake our fist and declare vengeance then and there.
What do you think we could do that would force his hand?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
FWIW I was mostly parsing it as, he is very unlikely to betray us before we actually do the rift fight as there's little advantage and heavy costs
Afterwards is anyone's game, sure. I think he would probably prefer Hazou live just because Hazou has already established himself as another safeguard against apocalypses like the Dragons, and if nothing else, is likely to reach out to Oro if he finds another one. Orochimaru thinks himself more competent than everyone else but even he knows he can't be everywhere, and he doesn't want the world to end while he's living in it. It helps that Hazou has never really postured himself as hostile to Oro like he has with other essies (despite hivemind opinion of him), and if anything is nominally more on his side than the average person, showing willingness to cooperate and actually engage with Oro's worldview even if he didn't immediately agree with him or whatever
Hazou can just set up a dead man's switch so this doesn't stop runes from leaking. Leave something with Cannai or even just in a cave somewhere.
Oro: Did you tell Naruto about this?
Hazou: Deceit 24 - 9 (FD) - Ummmmm no?
Oro: Deceit ?? + 6 (FD) - Hm
I'm not sure, but I notice he has multiple strong incentives to have Hazou killed or under his thumb, and a fair bit to lose by letting him run loose.
Given the lager number of NPCs who have talked about the risks of Orochimaru's biosealing mind control, I think that's the most likely outcome.
Borrow Tsunade and possibly Naruto, hide on a SCSA skytower and watch the rift site via telescope. When the explosions stop, Essies+Mari clones+Cannai swoop in and obliterate whoever the low-chakra and possibly injured survivor is.
All the deadman switches I've seen proposed so far are either dangerously prone to spilling, or something Oro could disarm given enough time/effort.
Given a sufficiently secure deadman switch, I would be less worried about Oro killing or enslaving us in the aftermath, but my main worry would still be that he's gonna keep the rift to himself.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
Well I've already stated my opinion on the topic but since we're still talking about it all these pages later, might as well repeat myself mindlessly to the brick wall of nobody caring;
Orochimaru has no incentive to keep the rift for himself and go missing unless Hazo/Leaf seriously fuck up their relationship with him. When comparing the two possible timelines, one where Oro is the hero of leaf, top scientist, given everything he wants which includes infinite access to the rift, vs the timeline where Orochimaru goes missing and has to handle the rift on his own while the entire rest of the world is searching for him, I see absolutely no rational path towards Orochimaru choosing the second option. It just doesn't make any sense.
"What if Orochimaru wants to keep Runecrafting for himself?" somebody might ask. I'm glad I did, thanks, because that is actually yet another reason why Orochimaru should cooperate actually. Basic precautions taken could result in Runecrafting spreading out of his control if Orochimaru acts against Hazo's interests here.
"What if the rift is the secret to immortality (which Orochimaru naturally wants as much or more than anything else)?" I've seen paraphrased here or there. Well yeah, what if Hazo and/or Jiraiya had incentive to head into the rift to fish out Orochimaru should the worst ever come to pass? Forget the what-ifs of some distant hypothetical line of research, the rift already promises immortality so long as Orochimaru has competent allies who have a reason to want him back.
"Something something world domination with an army of Essies maybe?" No. I'm not even going to dignify this line of questioning by actually inventing a question to try an answer, it's not realistic.
Please, somebody, anybody find an argument that you couldn't easily poke a hole in yourself if you're being honest before presenting it. I haven't seen any yet.
Orochimaru has no incentive to keep the rift for himself and go missing unless Hazo/Leaf seriously fuck up their relationship with him. When comparing the two possible timelines, one where Oro is the hero of leaf, top scientist, given everything he wants which includes infinite access to the rift, vs the timeline where Orochimaru goes missing and has to handle the rift on his own while the entire rest of the world is searching for him, I see absolutely no rational path towards Orochimaru choosing the second option. It just doesn't make any sense.
"What if Orochimaru wants to keep Runecrafting for himself?" somebody might ask. I'm glad I did, thanks, because that is actually yet another reason why Orochimaru should cooperate actually. Basic precautions taken could result in Runecrafting spreading out of his control if Orochimaru acts against Hazo's interests here.
"What if the rift is the secret to immortality (which Orochimaru naturally wants as much or more than anything else)?" I've seen paraphrased here or there. Well yeah, what if Hazo and/or Jiraiya had incentive to head into the rift to fish out Orochimaru should the worst ever come to pass? Forget the what-ifs of some distant hypothetical line of research, the rift already promises immortality so long as Orochimaru has competent allies who have a reason to want him back.
"Something something world domination with an army of Essies maybe?" No. I'm not even going to dignify this line of questioning by actually inventing a question to try an answer, it's not realistic.
Please, somebody, anybody find an argument that you couldn't easily poke a hole in yourself if you're being honest before presenting it. I haven't seen any yet.
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- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
I think, incidentally, that we might underestimate how much Orochimaru is moved by sentimentality. It's been in the back of my mind all this time since he returned to Leaf, that under everything he seems to still think of Leaf as his home and wants to live here and see it prosper. He just puts it second fiddle to his research, when they come into conflict.
And this is important because, crucially, he most likely also still cares about Jiraiya. Even given free reign over the rift, he wouldn't just be using it for himself. He's read the reports, he knows he's on a deadline before Jiraiya withers away (or at least, he knows enough to entertain the hypothesis and verify it with experimental evidence when the opportunity arises). Exploring the afterlife is not the kind of task that Orochimaru is best suited for. Ninja powers can't be used freely, it's possible even his bioseals would stop working, it's not a land he can just bulldoze his way through.
No, staging a proper Jiraiya rescue mission requires people. Resources, infrastructure, supplies. We've seen that the Akatsuki are of a similar mind when it comes to finding Pain. The more the better. It stands to reason, I think, that in addition to wanting to stay on good terms with Leaf if at all possible, Orochimaru would see the value in Leaf's ability to marshal resources towards this endeavor.
Imagine, for a moment, if you were in Orochimaru's shoes and inclined to monopolize the rift. You could steal the rift now, burning bridges with Leaf and hamstringing your efforts in the afterlife. Or, you could cooperate with Leaf, mount a large expedition into the afterlife, and then steal the rift once Jiraiya's out. It's not like stealing it from Leaf will be harder than stealing it from the Akatsuki, after all. If Orochimaru really has his heart set on owning the rift, come what may, I still think he doesn't screw us over here and now.
Of course, this brings us to the obvious question of "how do we keep him from stealing it in the future?", which easily devolves into "we steal it ourselves, of course!" and an adversarial plan against Orochimaru which is surely going to burn bridges in its own right if we can't coordinate a better solution, but we'll deal with that when we get to it. Suffice it to say, I don't think the odds of Orochimaru betraying us here are high enough to warrant trading off success-percentages from our main strat. I legitimately don't think Oro would be dumb enough to try it now, at this point in time.
And this is important because, crucially, he most likely also still cares about Jiraiya. Even given free reign over the rift, he wouldn't just be using it for himself. He's read the reports, he knows he's on a deadline before Jiraiya withers away (or at least, he knows enough to entertain the hypothesis and verify it with experimental evidence when the opportunity arises). Exploring the afterlife is not the kind of task that Orochimaru is best suited for. Ninja powers can't be used freely, it's possible even his bioseals would stop working, it's not a land he can just bulldoze his way through.
No, staging a proper Jiraiya rescue mission requires people. Resources, infrastructure, supplies. We've seen that the Akatsuki are of a similar mind when it comes to finding Pain. The more the better. It stands to reason, I think, that in addition to wanting to stay on good terms with Leaf if at all possible, Orochimaru would see the value in Leaf's ability to marshal resources towards this endeavor.
Imagine, for a moment, if you were in Orochimaru's shoes and inclined to monopolize the rift. You could steal the rift now, burning bridges with Leaf and hamstringing your efforts in the afterlife. Or, you could cooperate with Leaf, mount a large expedition into the afterlife, and then steal the rift once Jiraiya's out. It's not like stealing it from Leaf will be harder than stealing it from the Akatsuki, after all. If Orochimaru really has his heart set on owning the rift, come what may, I still think he doesn't screw us over here and now.
Of course, this brings us to the obvious question of "how do we keep him from stealing it in the future?", which easily devolves into "we steal it ourselves, of course!" and an adversarial plan against Orochimaru which is surely going to burn bridges in its own right if we can't coordinate a better solution, but we'll deal with that when we get to it. Suffice it to say, I don't think the odds of Orochimaru betraying us here are high enough to warrant trading off success-percentages from our main strat. I legitimately don't think Oro would be dumb enough to try it now, at this point in time.
- Location
- Washington, USA
We already know how to turn force domes on and off, right? Worst case we do it manually:
1) [supplemental] deactivate force dome
2) [standard] shoot
3) [supplemental] re-activate force dome
...but the problem with that approach is the risk of the blast going off before the dome comes back up, or some enemy running inside during the gap. Remote explosives already have a very obvious charge-up process, so the artillery cannon itself almost certainly doesn't need to change, just gotta tweak a force dome to briefly flicker in direct response to that power reaching its peak. Seems like the sort of thing which could plausibly happen as an unintended glitch, thus exactly the sort of weirdness Disciple of the Beyond is described in-setting as being able to engineer deliberately.
Unlikely to actually work, yet kinda awesome to consider: Hazo and Oro walk up to Akatsuki's rift fortress under flag of truce, describe their past grievances with Leaf, offer to betray an oncoming assault. Install, around the fortress, a force dome which seems more than solid enough against any remotely conventional attack, and that Itachi or Kisame could trivially escape even if it were some sort of trap... but which has a subtle vulnerability to a type of attack nobody but Oro and Team Uplift knows about. Inner force dome, hugging the runes themselves, is identical apart from smaller radius and lacking that quirky weakness - plausibly accidental even if it were somehow noted.
Then simply apply said attack, as many times as necessary, until the entire contents of the fortress (apart from the force-dome-projecting runes) have been boom-squished back to component molecules by blast waves rebounding off unbreakable walls.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
I had quite a few paragraphs/arguments that were deleted before posting the post above yours, and one of them was pretty similar to this.
All rational thinking and logical arguments are ultimately driven by emotional needs, they cannot be entirely separated. While we have little personal insight into Orochimaru's motivations, the evidence is in favor of remaining in Leaf and resurrecting Jiraiya.
I won't go on about it, I deleted my first draft for a reason and your own post on the topic should be enough. Or in other words
I agree.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Yes, please do that. I probably won't have the time to campaign for it, but doing the rift assault with Oro without doing this seems pretty directly suicidal to me.
Some of the others are right that Oro is probably much more sentimental than might appear at a glance, and that he likely has some respect for Hazou. He likely views Hazou as a rare person who is not too intolerable to speak with, with the possibility that he'd grow up into someone Oro can bear to talk to. He may not want to kill Hazou if given the option.
The issue is, "giving him the option not to kill Hazou" is likely not as simple as "not provoking him". It likely requires making killing Hazou no longer such a blatantly correct thing to do. Because as it is, it is the blatantly correct thing to do, once the Akatsuki are gone.
Sure, he'd have conflicted feelings about it. Sure, some part of him wouldn't want to kill a potential worthwhile conversation partner. But if the cost of satisfying this sentimentality is leaving around a wildcard world-ending threat/potential credible enemy/a source of power that could be easily looted by any other essie? I don't see him leaving Hazou alive.
If he can monopolize runecrafting, he can likely straight-up win the setting in a decade. If Hazou is left running around, this possibility is endangered, in a way it's not endangered by anything else except Pain. (Especially if Force Dome and RER2 prove Hazou's skills as a runesmith to Oro.)
Also, note that killing Hazou doesn't actually ruin his relationship with Leaf. He can make it look like Hazou somehow died in the fighting, or covertly assassinate him a bit later (make it look like the actions of Rain/an Akatsuki survivor). Or he can just own it and ask Leaf what they're planning to do about it. Alienate the last runesmith around, the only one who can operate the rift?
Oh, also also, he doesn't actually necessarily need to perma-kill Hazou? He can put him in stasis, or stuff him in the rift. This would be a win/win: no this massive source of risk running around, and if Oro's sentimentality ever gets the best of him, he can always pull Hazou out of storage (this will never happen).
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
FWIW, I think that Orochimaru is far less likely to "kill Hazou to ensure monopoly over runecrafting" and far more likely to "bribe Hazou to work with him." And I, for one, am down to put Hazou's morality in time-out and take Orochimaru up on the offer.
I think another thing we could do that might significantly raise our chances is to explicitly raise the reasoning that would lead Oro to backstab us after the Rift assault, and get him to promise not to do it as a condition of our help, plus or minus Summon witnesses. I don't think we should try and get him to promise to bring the Rift back to Leaf, because realistically we're going to help him even if he explicitly tells us he plans to abscond with the Rift (though I might support dropping Leaf a message even if he says he plans not to go back there, if he doesn't give a convincing reason) but "not killing us" is a reasonable thing for us to ask him to commit to in exchange for our help. Plan fragment below:
- Orochimaru:
- Tone: frank, acknowledging the power difference.
- We're concerned that you might backstab us after the Rift assault in order to monopolize runecrafting.
- Mention our deadman's switches if he asks, but don't bring them up first.
- Would you promise, in front of Summons, not to do that?
- If he seems offended at the idea that he might betray us, apologize for the insult, but maintain that we didn't know what his views on the subject were.