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I want to again discuss the importance of the Uchiha fearing the Hyuuga. They won't vote against the Hyuuga because they're scared for their survival. This is HUGE. If we can find some way to protect them then that's a carrot we can use on the same or higher level than kids. It would let us control them near-completely.

We should discuss all the ways Hiashi could destroy them and how we can protect them from such.
 
[X] Rejection and Counteroffer

Close enough. This should handle most of the parts of the deal I'm uninterested in dealing with.
 
It seems naive to expect this to turn out any differently than their proposal, given how excited Mari said they would be about the possibility of having kids with ninja.

The difference here is that we get to decide if it's fair play, keeping the above in mind. I trust us to do that much at least. The actual result may very well not be any different; chalk it up to the abysmal nature of the setting.
 
Thats not necessarily true. They can't interbreed too much or genetics will be problematic (Kaguya). On the flipside, if they dilute the gene pool too much they likely won't end up with many Sharingan users.

(I'm also doubtful they have more than 11ish girls/women our age. )

Regardless: the point is the same. If they want to be a real clan again in a generation then Hazou is their best shot.
Sure. But what makes you think Mari hasn't already played that card and gotten as many concessions out of them as she can? I mean, heck, three years.

Also, I'd like to register that I do not appreciate the breach of social norms that is pinging a bunch of people to vote for your plan. It is annoying to people (I in fact believe that you have spoken against it before, Vecht, unless I'm mistaken), and it leaves other plan makers little choice but to do the same for theirs if they wish to win.
 
Sure. But what makes you think Mari hasn't already played that card and gotten as many concessions out of them as she can? I mean, heck, three years.

Also, I'd like to register that I do not appreciate the breach of social norms that is pinging a bunch of people to vote for your plan. It is annoying to people (I in fact believe that you have spoken against it before, Vecht, unless I'm mistaken), and it leaves other plan makers little choice but to do the same for theirs if they wish to win.
It seems like the obvious solution here is to create an opt-in ping list, where people can choose whether or not they would like to be pinged for plans; probably with a way to easily list conditions. If necessary, I'd be willing to run this.
 
I want to again discuss the importance of the Uchiha fearing the Hyuuga. They won't vote against the Hyuuga because they're scared for their survival. This is HUGE. If we can find some way to protect them then that's a carrot we can use on the same or higher level than kids. It would let us control them near-completely.

We should discuss all the ways Hiashi could destroy them and how we can protect them from such.
The primary way hyuga wage war is through economic means, through boycotts, blackmail and incentive to keep in hyuga good grace.

We have limited action slots and even less intelligence and money.
 
Why do the mothers need to become Gouketsu in the first place? Let us adopt some other civilians, and let the Uchiha do their own dirty work. (I mean the work of making teenage girls into brood-mares.)

Because they need to offload civies that are a drain on their empty coffers without outright kicking out people with Uchiha lineage, while also having them make future uchiha ninja with the one branch clan member in the whole world they have access to.

The adoptions of the Uchiha refugees and future children are the core of the deal. It's one thing to tweak it to help the women and milk the deal for the Goketsu, but outright getting rid of those parts would kill the deal and any chance of a blood bound alliance. Plus that could push them to vote for Hiashi in the upcoming kage election, since they wouldn't be allied to the Goketsu and have no reason to go against the Hyuuga.
 
Also, I'd like to register that I do not appreciate the breach of social norms that is pinging a bunch of people to vote for your plan. It is annoying to people (I in fact believe that you have spoken against it before, Vecht, unless I'm mistaken), and it leaves other plan makers little choice but to do the same for theirs if they wish to win.
Should I be, uh...
Adhoc vote count started by faflec on Jul 5, 2019 at 1:30 PM, finished with 278 posts and 15 votes.
 
In exchange for the Uchiha abstaining on the Hokage vote, the Gouketsu agree to adopt a number of healthy Uchiha women of childbearing age, up to 20, at the Uchiha's discretion.

The original proposal has us adopting a number of civilians unrelated to child-bearing:

"Right, sorry. Anyway, we're adopting twenty-seven of their civilians. Sixteen of them are useless drains on our family economy—toddlers, brain-sick seniors, that kind of thing—and eleven are nubile young girls between fifteen and seventeen."

You may want to include these in your proposal.
 
The primary way hyuga wage war is through economic means, through boycotts, blackmail and incentive to keep in hyuga good grace.

We have limited action slots and even less intelligence and money.

Setting aside the issue of money (which basically boils down to "MADDIE: We'll have plenty of money soon. KIBA: No. Stop counting chickens. MADDIE: I can look at indicators to make a probable estimate of our number of chickens, thank you." and neither of us convinces the other), there actually is something we can do about blackmail. We can start supplying them with anti-byakkugan seals to protect from future blackmail material leaks.
 
However, Hazou personally promises to put forth his best effort to court and foster organic romantic relationships with the women, on his personal honor and the honor of his clan.
Somehow, this seems worse.

I get the intent, which coincides with the literal reading, but I feel that in-setting it'll have any or all of the following connotations:
  • "I'm engaging in costly signalling of my Decentness, and I want you to pay the cost."
  • "I'm pretending to be decent as a cover to get you to agree to a worse deal, possibly by moral-shaming you."
  • "I'm offending you by implying you wanted me to rape your fellow clanmates."
  • "I'm being narcissistic and acting like my personal attention/attachment to your fellow clanmates is in itself highly honourable and valuable."
  • "I will be personally seducing each of them, and I want you to know it."
 
  • In exchange for the Uchiha abstaining on the Hokage vote, the Gouketsu agree to adopt a number of healthy Uchiha women of childbearing age, up to 20, at the Uchiha's discretion. The Gouketsu will also make a payment of R1,500,000 to the Uchiha every month for the term of one year (negotiable).
  • The women to be adopted must indicate their full, informed, and enthusiastic consent to the arrangement without any manner of coercion. The Gouketsu reserve the sole right to deny any particular adoption if we believe the woman to be acting under duress.
  • Any children born to these women who develop the Sharingan will be immediately adopted by the Uchiha.

Isn't this a pretty massive difference in terms of actual # of ninja the Uchiha clan will see, undermining their primary motivation for the deal? They proposed 50+ ninja, now they're going to get as low as 0-1 ninja (1/32 chance of Sharingan from Hazou + Unknown % from civilian Uchiha). Such a counter might be more insulting than a straight rejection, unless they have data on Sharingan manifestation rates from Uchiha Civilian + Outside Ninja pairings.

I would suggest wording like "the Uchiha have the right to adopt half of the children born to these women, with priority on those children that manifest the Sharingan."

Also, why cheap out so much on the money front? OOC, 1 million / month for 3 years is probably easier for the thread than 1.5 million / month for 1 year.

I want to again discuss the importance of the Uchiha fearing the Hyuuga. They won't vote against the Hyuuga because they're scared for their survival. This is HUGE. If we can find some way to protect them then that's a carrot we can use on the same or higher level than kids. It would let us control them near-completely.

We should discuss all the ways Hiashi could destroy them and how we can protect them from such.

If the primary means is economic warfare, you can defend against it via guaranteed money and access to suppliers. But defense is always much harder than offense, and the Hyuuga can use social warfare (blackmail) as well.
 
[X] Rejection and Counteroffer

It basically gets me what I want out of this.

Although @Vecht I think a year on the payments is being a bit stingy.

OTOH: I would also emphasize that:

A) We are as much of a straight shooter as they come. We'll adhere to the letter and spirit of the deal if we give our word.

B) They will not be finding another rogue Kurosawa unicorn anytime soon, so we are the best they're going to get here.

Changes made.

Also, I'd like to register that I do not appreciate the breach of social norms that is pinging a bunch of people to vote for your plan. It is annoying to people (I in fact believe that you have spoken against it before, Vecht, unless I'm mistaken), and it leaves other plan makers little choice but to do the same for theirs if they wish to win.

In this case, this was motivated due to seeing several people expressing concern as to no viable option being presented, and modeling others that have not been active in this round of voting as being similar to myself in not caring to participate in the vote given lack of support. Seeing as this is a critical vote on the part of the players that will have outsized effects on how the quest plays out, I believe it to be correct -- in this instance -- to err on the side of maybe annoying people and ruffling feathers than to allow those who would otherwise like to participate and have expresses interest in doing so to counterfactually fall by the wayside.

I would note I have done this transparently and publically: if I desired to play foul that would not be the case. I could always spin up a secret voting conspiracy.
 
We will not sell our progeny for political favors, and we will not be complicit in sullying both of our clans' names.
Seems too much like insulting the Uchiha's honor to me. Might want to tone that down a bit so we aren't implying they are sullying their own honor.

Other than that:
[X] Rejection and Counteroffer

Also, I personally don't mind being pinged. Things are getting busy for me irl, so I haven't been keeping up to date at all on discussion or planning.
 
On the one hand, not doing it would cede Vecht the advantage and signal that this is a viable tactic to get an edge over other planmakers.

On the other hand, doing it would normalize the practice and signal that this is a necessary tactic for effective planmaking.

Lose/lose situation, really.

Welcome to what happens when the difference between norms and rules is realized.

E: A one time only tit-for-tat mass ping and agreement that this is prohibited in future votes would resolve both issues neatly.
 
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Somehow, this seems worse.

I get the intent, which coincides with the literal reading, but I feel that in-setting it'll have any or all of the following connotations:
  • "I'm engaging in costly signalling of my Decentness, and I want you to pay the cost."
  • "I'm pretending to be decent as a cover to get you to agree to a worse deal, possibly by moral-shaming you."
  • "I'm offending you by implying you wanted me to rape your fellow clanmates."
  • "I'm being narcissistic and acting like my personal attention/attachment to your fellow clanmates is in itself highly honourable and valuable."
  • "I will be personally seducing each of them, and I want you to know it."

This is fair and sensible. Any suggested changes?
 
Discuss retainership concept: Not formal adoption, formalized contractors-with-benefits.
  • Possible benefits:
    • Sealing knowledge.
    • Custom seal requests.
    • Medic-nin assistance.

@faflec can you specify that we are offering this to the 4 people who we previously discussed it and not Snake, who we've smalltalked to about stuff for a few hours but not really in detail about anything?
 
If the primary means is economic warfare, you can defend against it via guaranteed money and access to suppliers. But defense is always much harder than offense, and the Hyuuga can use social warfare (blackmail) as well.

Social attacks are certainly unpleasant, but are they actually an existential threat to the Uchiha clan? Can the Hyuuga use blackmail material to destroy them?

It seems to me that the only things that could actually destroy them are financial ruin or assassination. I believe we can protect them from financial ruin. Assassination may take more effort, though supplying them with anti-byakkugan seals would remove a Hyuuga assassin's advantages within their compound.
 
Again, so very sorry, but don't look directly at them. Don't acknowledge them. Don't do anything which might let them know that you know.

I am sorry. I didn't know. I am so very sorry...

It's OK. I'm mostly used to not looking at anything directly, in case they are standing/floating/lying there. I'm still stressed that my notes with "DO NOT FORGET" texts are getting swaped to notes with "FORGET. STAND DOWN". Meh, I'll figure something sooner or later.

The primary way hyuga wage war is through economic means, through boycotts, blackmail and incentive to keep in hyuga good grace.

We have limited action slots and even less intelligence and money.

True, but we don't need to resolve their problems before the vote, all they need is a promise. And we do have 216 civilians and their families, friends, and aquitances, with all their businesses and connections, that might help Uchiha if we ask really nicely

[X] Rejection and Counteroffer

Appreciate this, @Vecht, thank you.
 
Alright, then.

@18scsc @Rafin @Oneiros @PurposefulZephyr @Earwing @Noumero @nevereatcars @Torpling @Tua @RandomX2 @Insertion @Dictator4Hire @Kurkistan @apooooop @Pharos At some point during the previous voting cycle you have voted for one of my two plans, which has us tentatively accepting the deal given caveats. My current plan and suggested changes (linked below) accomplishes much the same goal. Let me know what you think.
@faflec can you specify that we are offering this to the 4 people who we previously discussed it and not Snake, who we've smalltalked to about stuff for a few hours but not really in detail about anything?
Done. @Vecht you may want to make the same change.

Word Count: 135

[X] Action Plan: Representation
  • Afternoon: Clan meeting on politics.
    • Propose changes to the Uchiha deal. Send Mari off to finalize the deals.
      • Hagoromo: Accept the deal as-is, it's fine.
      • Uchiha: Accept IFF key contentions are solved, otherwise decline.
    • Can we use civilian influence to flip another vote? Ami's speech earlier suggests it could be worthwhile. Maybe there's a clan that has economic interests requiring skilled civilians?
  • Evening: Dinner with Snake, Team Nakano, and Yudai.
    • Carefully introduce Kagome to Nakano and co..
    • Discuss the recent Sealing failure.
      • Are their families and friends alright?
      • If not, is there anything we can do for them?
    • Ask Snake about her time with Jiraiya. Listen to her stories and reminisce a little.
    • Discuss retainership concept to Team Nakano and Yudai: Not formal adoption, formalized contractors-with-benefits.
      • Possible benefits:
        • Sealing knowledge.
        • Custom seal requests.
        • Medic-nin assistance.
Suggested Changes to the Uchiha Deal:

Gouketsu Key Contentions and Possible Solutions: If any of these contentions are not solved to our satisfaction, we will not sign the contract. Bulleted beneath each Key Contention are details and/or possible solutions to the contention.
  1. None of the eleven (11) civilian women will at any point be threatened, blackmailed, coerced, or in any other way be made to bear children against their will. At any point, any one of the civilian women may choose to 'opt out' of the deal, and may choose to remain within the Gouketsu Clan or be re-adopted into the Uchiha Clan as she sees fit.
    • The Uchiha Clan is free to select another healthy civilian woman to be adopted into the Gouketsu Clan. This woman will continue the previous woman's obligations under the same terms of the deal.
    • Should adoption not be feasible, the Gouketsu Clan will ensure that the total number of pregnancies (55) remains the same, and will ensure another pregnancy from the remaining women as soon as is healthy to do so.
  2. To ensure the safety of the eleven (11) civilian women, a competent medical professional will be enlisted to confirm whether or not each woman is capable of giving birth with minimal complications (NB: the chances of this woman dying or being otherwise permanently weakened from the ordeal is less than 5%). Should this medical professional deem it so, the rate OR number of births for this woman must be reduced or ended entirely.
    • The Uchiha Clan is free to select another healthy civilian woman to be adopted into the Gouketsu Clan. This woman will continue the previous woman's obligations under the same terms of the deal.
    • Should adoption not be feasible, the Gouketsu Clan will ensure that the total number of pregnancies (55) remains the same, and will ensure another pregnancy from the remaining women as soon as is healthy to do so.
  3. Parents of any child born and immediately adopted or married into the Uchiha Clan will be allowed to be heavily involved in the raising of the child until said child has reached his or her age of majority. This includes any children born under the eleven (11) civilian women adopted from this deal, as well as any future children with the potential to develop the Sharingan.
    • Ideally, the Gouketsu and Uchiha Clans may choose to raise these children together under dual-clan membership. This means that they will be considered to be both of the Uchiha AND the Gouketsu Clans, though their status as Uchiha Clan will take precedence.
      • If this is agreed to, the Gouketsu Clan offers to shoulder the cost of raising these children, which includes but is not limited to: monetary costs, training, general child rearing, etc., until they reach their legal age of majority, after which point they will move into the Uchiha Clan.
      • Furthermore, if this is agreed to, the Gouketsu Clan is willing to train these children to prevent issues arising from the Iron Nerve bloodline from occuring, and may offer them tutoring in certain clan secrets (without being said aloud, this means teaching them details on the Iron Nerve). Any clan secret training will be understood to be not taught to anyone outside of the Gouketsu Clan. Additionally, the Gouketsu is willing to teach them non-clan secret techniques and outfit them with seal loadouts at our discretion.
    • If the above arrangement cannot be achieved, then at the bare minimum, the Gouketsu Clan requires the right to visit these children as often as they desire."

Gouketsu Non-Key Contentions: These are contentions that we want but are willing to drop entirely if they can not be resolved.
  1. The Gouketsu Clan would like the Uchiha Clan to vote for our candidate instead of abstaining from the vote. The Gouketsu Clan recognize the danger it would put the Uchiha Clan in due to retailation from the Hyuuga Clan, and would ask them if any sum of the concessions we offer are sufficient; and if not, what concessions would the Gouketsu Clan need to bring in order to change this.
    • If the concessions are equivalent to some large monetary sum paid upfront or over time, political markers, or trade deals favourable to the Uchiha, the Gouketsu Clan would be willing to accept these concessions. If the concessions would require major moral failures, such as rejection of Key Contentions as stated above, the Gouketsu Clan would not be willing to accept these concessions.

Additional Concessions to Contentions: In addition to solutions to specific contentions, these are general concessions that may be added to resolve any contention. Specifics are to be determined based on the magnitude of the contention and how much is necessary to 'balance the scales'.
  • The Gouketsu Clan offers an increased payment totaling up to R1,500,000 per month to the Uchiha Clan, and/or duration for up to 1 additional year.
  • The Gouketsu Clan offers to reduce the total number of political markers given upfront by the Uchiha Clan down to 3.
  • The Gouketsu Clan offers to void political markers the Uchiha Clan is obligated to give for every year a child is adopted into the Uchiha.
  • The Gouketsu Clan offers to void political markers the Uchiha Clan is obligated to give for every year a child with the potential to develop the Sharingan is adopted.
  • The Gouketsu Clan offers to reduce the amount or duration of the 5% Uchiha income net of basic clan expenses, and are willing to void this entirely.
 
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