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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Kiba said:
The women staying together allows them better bargaining position, as well a bigger support network.
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That actually got me thinking about something. Let's assume we take the deal and have the girls adopted into the compound and Hazo gets the next three years to know them and everyone is at least hesitantly on board with the baby making.

If we're trying to accommodate and treat the girls right as best as we can, then doesn't hiring a male ninja once in a while to impregnate them go against that? I mean, on one hand I feel weird about thinking of it this way because I legitimately think this deal is good for fostering an eventual strong alliance between the Goketsu and the Uchiha, not just an excuse to give Hazo a harem of women, but then that might be the best way to go about it?

I thought about maybe finding some husbands to marry some of the adoptee girls and join the clan but clanless ninjas are a no go because of the clanless adoption limit and I honestly don't believe we'll find any good matches from other clans who would willingly marry civie girls. Plus I doubt the girls would feel any better about marrying the first clan ninja that actually agrees to something like that, maybe we could somehow find 1 or 2 guys that would actually make a good husband and get their clan to agree but even then, if it did happen, that leave a good portion of them unwed and needing kids with a ninja as per the agreement. Not to mention 3 of them need to be from Hazo, yes technically a Kurosawa but there's no way in hell you're getting another of them in on this, let alone even in Konoha, for a multitude of reasons, that would be insane.

Then goes the full "just go fuck who you want" route. Which would have the girls go try to get with a random guy or get a lover and try to fufill that annual quota of theirs. That's....possible but that comes with a multitude of problems, foremost being that a teen girl with the mindset of a lower level noblewoman from the Edo period would likely find that even less appealing than being a concubine. Plus again, three of the annual children need to be Hazo's anyway.

Obviously we should talk to them, get to know our new clansmen, and see what they want out of this, but in general it seems like the "harem" route is weirdly enough the most respectful way to go about it with maybe getting those more interested in a proper marriage some decent husbands.

I get it, we're talking about teenagers having sex and that's awkward as hell. I feel weird just getting this detailed about it, but it is something that needed to be brought up so I just ripped off the bandage. I don't know, thoughts on this?
 
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Oneiros said:
@faflec I'd like it if you could add asking about slowing the tempo of the births. A pregnancy every year for 5 years isn't really a healthy and sustainable rate
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Sure.
faflec said:
Word Count: 299

[X] Action Plan: Deals and Discussions
Timeline: Immediately after Chapter 271.
  • Mari:
    • Thank her for her help.
    • Discuss the Hagoromo & Uchiha deals.
      • Uchiha deal:
        • What's the fallout from our Leaf allies/Mist?
        • We have possible changes: How willing are the Uchiha to budge? What will it cost?
          1. An out for the girls that stop giving consent.
          2. An active role in raising the kids.
          3. More spaced-out pregnancies, for the girls' safety.
          4. Some way to keep IN in the Gouketsu.
      • We tentatively agree, but want to hear the clan's thoughts.
  • Fill Akane in on land-clearing, as per our note.
    • Include discussion on finding buyers; ways to improve the land, like irrigation; as well as possible profits, like from chakra monster parts and lumber.
    • Ask her to offer Tsunade ~25% profit if she'll help with legal/political problems.
  • Check in on the refugees tomorrow. Make a show of friendliness and empathy.
    • Learn more about the refugees. Consider adopting/minionizing those with political connections or useful skills like carpentry.
  • Check the casualty list for people we know, like Honoka.
  • Invite Shikamaru to breakfast later this week.
    • Subject: Nara Rebuilding/Construction Assistance
  • Invite Team Nakano (and Jinno) over for lunch.
    • Ask them to bring some honeyed apples for Kagome; he'd love them.
    • Continue discussion of funding till-n-fills they take.
    • Carefully offer to put them 'on retainer': We'd pay them in seals, jutsu, teaching, etc.; they'd be on-call to supply manpower for running errands, talking to people, or other stuff.
    • Let Kagome bring up Sealing teaching; he'd be their teacher, after all.
  • Afternoon clan meeting (high-security room):
    • Discuss working with the Yakuza.
      • Sell them ice/salt, or promise assistance against their rivals.
      • Should we work with Leaf's xor Mist's Yakuza?
    • Discuss the Uchiha & Hagoromo deals.
  • Continue scribing Skywalkers in our spare time.
  • Contingency: If encountering Ami, spend the favour as discussed.
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faflec said:
Yeah...I ended up cutting almost everything from the old plan to make room for the Mari discussion. It would be a mite unfair for such major changes to happen...so I just made another plan.
Word Count: 296

[X] Action Plan: Mari's Deal
Timeline: Immediately after Chapter 271.
  • Mari:
    • Thank her for her help.
    • Discuss the Hagoromo & Uchiha deals.
      • Uchiha deal:
        • What's the fallout from our Leaf allies/Mist?
        • We have possible changes: How willing are the Uchiha to budge? What will it cost?
          1. An out for the girls that stop giving consent.
          2. An active role in raising the kids.
          3. More spaced-out pregnancies, for the girls' safety.
          4. Some way to keep IN in the Gouketsu.
      • We tentatively agree, but want to hear the clan's thoughts.
  • The Mari situation:
    • Thoughts:
      • TLitF's exact mechanics and her eye color changing appear to be related. Whenever she's used TLitF in the past, her eyes changed (grey to blue to green).
      • Since her 'recovery', her eyes've changed color rapidly: green to brown to purple to green.
      • TLitF's 'price' has been implied to negatively affect her mind. Could it be related to her recovery?
    • Tomorrow morning, discuss with Noburi & Akane (high-security room).
      • Akane: What happened in Leaf while we were gone? Anything related to Mari?
      • Fill them in fully, including our thoughts and private conversations with Mari.
        • Note: TLitF might get us killbox'd. Don't spread the information around.
      • Ask their thoughts. Surely she isn't acting against our interests, but you're worried she's running some self-sacrificial ploy...unless TLitF makes her temporarily sociopathic? You're unsure; did she act a bit off after Tea?
  • Fill Akane in on land-clearing, as per our note.
    • Include discussion on finding buyers; ways to improve the land, such as irrigation; as well as possible profits, like from chakra monster parts and lumber.
    • Ask her to offer Tsunade ~25% profit if she'll help with legal/political problems.
  • Send invitations for later this week:
    • Shikamaru: Discuss Nara rebuilding/construction assistance.
    • Team Nakano & Jinno: Offer them retainership.
  • Continue scribing Skywalkers in our spare time.
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Adhoc vote count started by faflec on Jul 2, 2019 at 10:29 PM, finished with 809 posts and 39 votes.
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Shadowwarp said:
Then goes the full "just go fuck who you want" route. Which would have the girls go try to get with a random guy or get a lover and try to fufill that annual quota of theirs. That's....possible but that comes with a multitude of problems, foremost being that a teen girl with the mindset of a lower level noblewoman from the Edo period would likely find that even less appealing than being a concubine. Plus again, three of the annual children need to be Hazo's anyway.
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FYI: Edo period is squarely in the modern era and they have gunpowder weapons.
 
Whew! Finally caught up! I think there was a 24 period in which 20 pages were posted? I'm in awe of the thread (and wishing I wasn't reading it all on mobile since my laptop broke yesterday).

My two cents on the Uchiha issue is worth way more than usual, since it's just a combination of things MMKII and Roomba have said, and they both say better things than I.

Roomba said:
Right, so my take on the deal. In no particular order.

1. It's absolutely a breeding program. Not as abhorrent as what Jiraiya theorized for Mist, but the purpose is fairly clear. The Uchiha need to grow a new generation of ninja, and are heavily bottlenecked by the adoption/marriage restrictions. This is one way for them to get around these restrictions. It's pretty amazing how desperate they are, to agree to such a deal. One thought that comes to mind, is that this probably isn't going to be a harmonious relationship between clans, given what it's built on. At minimum, they have to feel humiliated by the arrangement, while the Goketsu will be very uncomfortable or creeped out. That is not a good foundation for an alliance.

2. Sad as it may be to admit, consent is probably not an issue. We can guard against coercion from the Uchiha side by being very clear that there will be no negative consequences for girls who refuse - and they're out clan members, so we get to decide this. However, I expect that enough of them will truly, genuinely want this. Putting aside the status increase from bearing the child of a ninja, and the fact that they do their duty in restoring the Uchiha this way, Hazou is handsome, charismatic, and soon to be incredibly rich. He's the head of a council clan, a sealing prodigy, and a very strong combatant in his own right. Insofar as ninja deathworld standards go, he's as desirable as they come. I doubt we'll be short on volunteers when the time comes.

3. The kids' fate is a major issue, and probably the main negative when it comes to the deal's utility. Even assuming they'll be treated well by the Uchiha side, which is strongly doubt given the circumstances, I imagine they'll be carrying the shame of being the result of Uchiha women whoring themselves out to the Goketsu, which is how anyone negatively inclined is going to interpret the situation. And it's likely that they'll put most of the blame on Hazou, because that's just how people work.

4. All in all though, I don't think we'd really be doing any worse than the setting's average in accepting the deal. Similar things surely happen on a regular basis, if on a smaller scale, and if the Uchiha are willing to do this, then they eventually will with a different partner. I don't think we'll make the world any worse by accepting, which is a bar we've failed to clear in the past.

5. However, my view is that we need to do better than "not worse" and "what everyone else is doing". This deal is going to have heavy hidden costs. It goes against our ideals in the manner in which it reduces people to objects - and against Hazou's ideals, if you consider how angry he was this update at the Nara's remark about ninja dying without impacting their mission. It will weigh heavily on Hazou, with his strong beliefs about the sacredness of family, and his idealism will suffer for having accepted. It will definitely impact our reputation - not necessarily within the population at large, who already believe the Goketsu to be sexual deviants, but amongst our peers, the other clan heads and heirs, who will easily see this deal for what it is, and probably view it as disgusting. And finally, I think it will poison both clans for decades to come. Nobody is going to walk out of this feeling happy, and I strongly doubt we'll be able to integrate the Uchiha adoptees smoothly.

In the end, that's a no from me. The primary reason being that this goes strongly against our ideals, and I consider ideals to be very important. And I don't see a way to modify the arrangement in such a way as to remove this problem. And unfortunately, I don't think there's a way for the Uchiha to solve their problem without going through with something similar. A really unfortunate situation, all in all.
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MMKII said:
By the time thats a thing, it'll probably be a decade and a half from now since IIRC you don't activate your Sharingan for quite a while.

Also, since ninja don't really do much before the age of twelve, we can likely keep that under wraps for a while if it is the case.


As a general observation, I think its best to keep in mind that this deal is a mid to long term obligation that we wont see the true negative effects of for quite a while. In ninjadeathland, that is a truly massive amount of "If"'s to have in a deal. If your deal is reliant on a particular Chunin surviving another couple years, you are a truly desperate pile of motherfuckers, because thats extremely unlikely in universe. Given that Hazou and co manage to flip the table and subsequently slam dunk it through the floor every 9 months or so, I don't really have much faith that the deal will remain the same by the time the child thing becomes relevant.

Its far more likely that everything will be a burnt crater with everyone dead, reality itself will succumb to a hundred sealing failures, or we'll have escalated to the point where renegotiating is at least possible--if not entirely trivial.
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I think Hazou, as he's been characterized as a romantic who puts family before clan, and was horrified with the breeding programs when J mentioned them, will be super uncomfortable with the deal and be betraying some core values of his, if he takes it at all.

And from our end, the quest has been going on for 2 years in game? The Goketsu is a couple months old? The village system less than a century? And the world as we know it was a couple bad dice rolls away from destruction a week ago, with most of those responsible still in play? Yeah, any plan that has "maybe worth it" dividends paying 10-30 years from now is quite literally worth less than the sealing- quality paper its written on. If we can't get them to vote with us no matter what, let's just secure the abstention and go from there. A couple markers aren't great, if we could haggle for those anyway the once-a- season we could even use it. And squickiness.

On which note:

[X] Action Plan: Please No

MadScientist said:
Copying @faflec 's plan and modifying to suit my view on the deal.

[X] Action Plan: Please No
  • Mari:
    • Thank her for her help.
    • Discuss the Hagoromo & Uchiha deals.
      • Uchiha deal:
        • We are not comfortable with this for a whole host of reasons. There are consent issues, a squicky power dynamic, negative impacts on the mental health and social reputation of everyone involved -- especially the children, Hazou would want his children to have the option of being Gouketsu should they so desire, it's undesirable to give the Uchiha the Iron Nerve if they won't let Gouketsu have Sharingans, and HAZOU ISN'T READY TO BE A FATHER!
        • At the very least this needs to be thouroughly discussed at an all-clan meeting, probably multiple meetings, Naruto included.
      • What can we do to vassalise the Uchiha clan without impregnating anyone?
  • The Mari situation:
    • Thoughts:
      • TLitF's exact mechanics and her eye color changing appear to be related. Whenever she's used TLitF in the past, her eyes changed (grey to blue to green).
      • Since her 'recovery', her eyes've changed color rapidly: green to brown to purple to green.
      • TLitF's 'price' has been implied to negatively affect her mind. Could it be related to her recovery?
    • Tomorrow morning, discuss with Noburi & Akane (high-security room).
      • Akane: What happened in Leaf while we were gone? Anything related to Mari?
      • Fill them in fully, including our thoughts and privateconversations with Mari.
        • Note: TLitF might get us killbox'd. Don't spread the information around.
      • Ask their thoughts. Surely she isn't acting against our interests, but you're worried she's running some self-sacrificial ploy...unless TLitF makes her temporarily sociopathic? You're unsure; did she act a bit off after Tea?
  • Fill Akane in on land-clearing, as per our note.
    • Include discussion on finding buyers; ways to improve the land, such as irrigation; as well as possible profits, like from chakra monster parts and lumber.
    • Ask her to offer Tsunade ~25% profit if she'll help with legal/political problems.
  • Send invitations for later this week:
    • Shikamaru: Discuss Nara rebuilding/construction assistance.
    • Team Nakano & Jinno: Make them retainers
  • Continue scribing Skywalkers in our spare time.
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@MadScientist any chance you'd switch making seals for checking on civilians? I don't think we'll have meaningful seal-making time between now and tomorrow at noon, and the hundreds of civilians seem more time sensitive.
 
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Halberdier said:
And from our end, the quest has been going on for 2 years in game? The Goketsu is a couple months old? The village system less than a century? And the world as we know it was a couple bad dice rolls away from destruction a week ago, with most of those responsible still in play? Yeah, any plan that has "maybe worth it" dividends paying 10-30 years from now is quite literally worth less than the sealing- quality paper its written on. If we can't get them to vote with us no matter what, let's just secure the abstention and go from there. A couple markers aren't great, if we could haggle for those anyway the once-a- season we could even use it. And squickiness.
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TBH that's, among other reasons, why I'm inclined to take the deal. Three years from now we'll have a minimum of 3 summon scrolls in our possession, possibly as many as five. If we can't come up with something the Uchiha want more than 55 younglings in that time, I will be very dissapointed in us.
 
@MadScientist Some thoughts:
  • Your plan has a 322 word count, maybe consider trimming it down a bit?
  • Oneiros mentioned pregnancy issues from giving birth every year for 5 years, this could be added?
  • As many have said before, "HAZOU ISN'T READY TO BE A FATHER!" isn't that great from an argument standpoint. At the least, please tone it down.
  • Don't ask to vassalize the Uchiha. We don't need that. We need them onboard with the vote.
Adhoc vote count started by faflec on Jul 2, 2019 at 10:51 PM, finished with 813 posts and 40 votes.
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Cariyaga said:
TBH that's, among other reasons, why I'm inclined to take the deal. Three years from now we'll have a minimum of 3 summon scrolls in our possession, possibly as many as five. If we can't come up with something the Uchiha want more than 55 younglings in that time, I will be very dissapointed in us.
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Maybe, but they still might just want thee babies. Or then we don't get the money, which would make sense. Going into the deal in bad faith seems like a bad idea. And someone mentioned how accepting the deal contradicts the values we make (embarrassingly) publicly known?

Oh, @eaglejarl

I'm atheist; I tend to be left of any given country (or whatever direction "treat all people well and keep our planet from dying" is on); and I'm decently against the deal. Partially because baby factory tones and the difficulty addressing coersion, partially because I don't think Hazou would want to do it at all (and mist won't want to just give away a bloodline), and partially because I think most the payoffs are too long- term when we could use that seed money now on other stuff.
 
Cariyaga said:
TBH that's, among other reasons, why I'm inclined to take the deal. Three years from now we'll have a minimum of 3 summon scrolls in our possession, possibly as many as five. If we can't come up with something the Uchiha want more than 55 younglings in that time, I will be very dissapointed in us.
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Some variant on this.

The headsman's axe of "And then all your kids get kidnapped by the Uchiha Stork!" is more or less a non-entity. Given the proposed renegotiation points and three years of time for which to plot and plan on this issue, I'm hard pressed to believe we won't fix it by then. It's not like the Pangolins, who consistently murdered a new summon clan every month or something. A large amount of the moral deadweight here is either frontloaded by the bulletpoints we've already hashed out (mostly making sure those girls are okay with it and have options, and putting in a "We want a hand in the children's upbringings" clause in case we do) or put off three years from now.

I'm quite happy to devote time to solving this problem after we stop Hiashi "Your Bloodline is Not Pure Enough Commoner Filth" Hyuuga from becoming the closest thing to god and instantiating the Might Maketh Right Meritocracy (Where Conveniently Those With Superior Genetics As Defined By Myself Will Prosper) after sending us on Dangerous Mission Designed to Reduce Gouketsu Population #23 and/or having us research/print seals 24/7 in a sweatshop.
 
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[X] Action Plan: Second Opinion, Please?

[X] Action Plan: Please No

I also wanted to mention something which I think has been overlooked(?) - not sure due to the deluge of posts.

The Iron Nerve is apparent at a very young age, infancy young.

The Sharingan takes years to manifest. Itachi was canonically the earliest Uchiha to manifest it, at 7. Sasuke canonically didn't manifest until already a ninja, on a mission, and in a fight to death at 12-13.

It's easy to identify an Iron Nerve baby. It's impossible to identify a Sharingan baby (unless MfD is different). So that can be an important factor in any final agreement.
 
Ipsos Custodes said:
I also wanted to mention something which I think has been overlooked(?) - not sure due to the deluge of posts.

The Iron Nerve is apparent at a very young age, infancy young.

The Sharingan takes years to manifest. Itachi was canonically the earliest Uchiha to manifest it, at 7. Sasuke canonically didn't manifest until already a ninja, on a mission, and in a fight to death at 12-13.

It's easy to identify an Iron Nerve baby. It's impossible to identify a Sharingan baby (unless MfD is different). So that can be an important factor in any final agreement.
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According to Kagome the Byakugan can tell whether or not a child has sufficient chakra reserves to become a ninja, so I wouldn't be surprised if they can detect the Sharingan in its unawakened state. I also wouldn't be surprised if such inspections are fairly common for ninjaborn children.
 
[x] Action Plan: Second Opinion, Please?

Hello, my precious Hazou, Sasuke and Naruto bowling scene.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
According to Kagome the Byakugan can tell whether or not a child has sufficient chakra reserves to become a ninja, so I wouldn't be surprised if they can detect the Sharingan in its unawakened state. I also wouldn't be surprised if such inspections are fairly common for ninjaborn children.
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At most they could detect the potential, since (canonically) sufficient stress/trauma would be required to awaken it. Assuming MfD doesn't differ in that regard (a big if) then we may also want to include a "no torturing Goketsu derived ninja in order to awaken their potential Sharingan."

Though I'd be surprised if they could identify a currently unrealized and non-utilized bloodline.
 
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[X] Action Plan: Mari's Deal

The Uchiha deal won't even cost us anything but gold for years. Based off of our past rate of technological and political progression, in 3 years we'll be rich and powerful to revisit the terms if we still have objections.

[x] Action Plan: Second Opinion, Please?

I see TLiF plans I vote.
 
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eaglejarl said:
If there's any doubt about whether something qualifies, we take it to a Leaf tribunal for settlement.
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Apparently, there is a tribunal for settling the debates. Which means that in 3 years, when we would want to cancel/alter the deal, Uchiha would say 'we don't wanna' and go to tribunal with the case. And, the sad thing, they would be absolutely right to do so, since we would have been already agreed on the deal's terms and then one-sidedly decide to flip the table.

[x] Action Plan: Second Opinion, Please?
Adhoc vote count started by TarzanNn on Jul 3, 2019 at 5:09 AM, finished with 825 posts and 41 votes.
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