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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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We should point out to the Uchiha that Hiashi had zero interest in international diplomacy and that his stance is to be isolationist. Which means if WW4 break out, the Uchiha clan is fucked.
 
I've skimmed over the last dozen or so pages, but thought this would be an appropriate .gif to share since it's canonically illustrative of the Uchiha not needing the Iron Nerve to copy seals:

 
firestorm440 said:
@faflec given that the main dividing issue on this vote seems to be the Uchiha deal and there is to my knowlege one No plan, do you think it would be a good idea to merge your two current plans (both of which are yes but reservations to the Uchiha deal IIRC) into one so we avoid splitting the Yes vote and get an accurate count on the thread's opinion?
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Thing is you can just vote for both if you really only care about the clan dealings
 
Raxner said:
If you live in California, you live in a building that's designed to withstand earthquakes. If you live in a Clan Compound, you ought to be living in a place that's designed to put down insane violent warrior-wizards very quickly. If it's not designed to do that, someone was Not Clever.
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Actually, the place I used to live was on stilts. *shrug emoji* It was a tradeoff between the expected probability of dying in earthquake vs known certainty of saving on rent and living in an amazing neighborhood.

That's not actually relevant to the discussion, I was just reminiscing over pleasant memories. Carry on.

Kurkistan said:
I will however say that in my read of the quest so far this kind of "shit, that would break everything, better stop that" reasoning has been more or less out in the open and embraced by all sides. Supersonic-substitution, henge, adopting literally everyone, the existence and nature of the merchant council. All phrased and interpreted and almost certainly genuinely meant as "rules patches" to make the world make sense/explain why it looks the way it does; also all stopping the players from being able to mash an "I Win" button if we'd instead gone with a somewhat-plausible "well I guess no one thought of that yet" answer, rather than a "no, can't do that, here's why" one that we end up with.
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Henge was grued because it was a pain in the ass, not because it was a win button. The other things were patched because it wasn't reasonable for them to have not been found yet.

So, not unfair. Still, the point is that you're welcome to win as long as you find something that isn't blindingly obvious to people who live in the world even if it wasn't to your poor overworked QMs. *sympathy-fishing,sympathy-fishing,pity party,sympathy-fishing,*

Kurkistan said:
"Told" was not the right word for me to use. I should have said "asked" or "implied" instead. My apologies for saying that you used an imperative.
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No worries. I wasn't offended, just trying to be clear. Sorry if it came off otherwise.

Kurkistan said:
Things like how "let's talk to Ami, that'll be fun!" or "YOUTH!" have come about and gone have not quite been driven by the cold calculus of utility-maximizing machines and their simulationist-computer buddies, I would say. And that's okay.
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So.
Many.
Headaches!
:p

Esryok said:
Something of a tangent. If we end up taking the Uchiha and Hagoromo deals (plus a wide variety of other assumptions about expenses and income) we have ~8 months to fix our financial situation. I reckon we can manage that.

For the curious:
MFD budget forecast
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That is very cool. I don't have the energy to engage with it in depth, but I'm really impressed you did it.

Dissonance said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail
?

(Not sure how far Oli's co-QM powers go or if it's something Velorien has to cover because his post(?) or if something eaglejarl has to do because his thread)

Story only thread has some weird stuff about the ordering of 178-181 (ending at the incident where Team Neji breaks into the place?)

(My observations feel really weird, so I don't wanna say "hey specifically this" and then have y'all jump to "fix" if it ends up me being especially unobservant about.. e.g., a retcon, I think?)
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Could you be more specific? I skimmed through those updates and nothing is jumping out at me.

Inferno Vulpix said:
In my demographics analysis a little while ago, a few years is not likely to spell the death of a given Chuunin.
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Could you link me to that again? Specifically the one where you gave us the algorithm for calculating life expectancies -- I'm sorry for not having been organized enough to keep track of it.
 
[X] Action Plan: Mari's Deal
[X] Action Plan: Deals and Discussions

Just to make double-sure.
Adhoc vote count started by firestorm440 on Jul 1, 2019 at 11:00 PM, finished with 580 posts and 23 votes.
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eaglejarl said:
Henge was grued because it was a pain in the ass, not because it was a win button. The other things were patched because it wasn't reasonable for them to have not been found yet.

So, not unfair. Still, the point is that you're welcome to win as long as you find something that isn't blindingly obvious to people who live in the world even if it wasn't to your poor overworked QMs. *sympathy-fishing,sympathy-fishing,pity party,sympathy-fishing,*
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My biggest response to talk like this is that Skywalkers is exactly that gamechanging thing that wasn't blindingly obvious to people living in the world (owing to the rarity of advanced seals, sealmasters, and in particular sealmasters doing research) and we got that without any trouble because it didn't break simulation to have not been found by now.
eaglejarl said:
Could you link me to that again? Specifically the one where you gave us the algorithm for calculating life expectancies -- I'm sorry for not having been organized enough to keep track of it.
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Here you go. There's also another post I made a little bit further down the page in which I created a model I feel pretty good about, close enough to what I imagine things are like that I feel only minor tweaks would be needed.
 
faflec said:
Given a player consensus, I'd change it to something like this:

If you all are OK with adding Oneiros' suggestion, LIKE this post. If not, HUGS this post.
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MMKII said:
I'd specify very clearly the agreement is tentative but not final. Do not sign a thing just yet.
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Sentient Tree said:
Maybe consider adding an order of importance? I think we should push harder for the morality stuff than stuff that increases our power, and it's possible that the Uchiha may think of an out for the civilians as us trying to weasel our way out of giving them sharingan babies (for example if we were really horrible to them to make them all quit and go back to the Uchiha).
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Inferno Vulpix said:
I like all the changes except the line specifically asking for seals and techniques. Unless I'm missing something about how sharing those things will tie the clans closer together, I really don't see the need to ask for more and give the Uchiha opportunity to ask for more from us when it's just jutsu and seals on the line. The Uchiha's libraries are impressive to be sure, but that's exactly why the Uchiha will charge us through the nose for anything from it, and if that's the case then especially given the subject matter of what we're providing them I'd rather not.
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Alright, so it sounds like this is a pretty contentious topic, given that Inferno Vulpix doesn't want to ask for seals/techniques and I'm leaning towards NO on it. I'll change the format and add the suggestions from MMKII and Sentient Tree above, but will NOT add discussion on the seals/techniques.
Lailoken said:
I'm tempted to suggest just making the deal contingent. If Hyuuga gets the hat, nothing else matters, because Goketsu won't exist in a year's time. What we care about is Hyuuga not getting the hat.

So, just post a bounty on Hyuuga not getting the hat. Let them do their own math on whether it's worth it to them. Maybe they vote against him. Maybe they flip a clan so they can abstain while he still doesn't get the hat. Perhaps they pull out some old blackmail which flips two clans so they can still vote for him. Perhaps he unexpectedly succumbs to his injuries the night before the vote- we don't care. If Hyuuga does not get the hat for any reason, the deal is on. Otherwise, no deal.

Of course, we reserve the right to rescind the bounty at any point up to the deciding moment if we find a better way to invest our resources towards the goal of Hyuuga not getting the hat, because such is the risk they take in not just agreeing to vote against him in a hard deal in the same way we take the risk that they might at any point withdraw the offer to abstain.

It's a gamble, but it leaves our resources free to swing clans more willing to commit, and it hammers home just how serious we are about how important it is for Hyuuga to not get the hat.
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I'm not sure how this would work and worry that apathy might cause other clans to hedge their bets by voting normally (i.e., for Hyuga) in the hopes that other clans would act against them. Just a thought.
faflec said:
Word Count: 294

[X] Action Plan: Deals and Discussions
Timeline: Immediately after Chapter 271.
  • Mari:
    • Thank her for her help.
    • Discuss the Hagoromo & Uchiha deals.
      • Uchiha deal:
        • What's the fallout from our Leaf allies/Mist?
        • We have possible changes: How willing are the Uchiha to budge? What will it cost?
          1. An out for the girls that stop giving consent.
          2. An active role in raising the kids.
          3. Some way to keep IN in the Gouketsu.
      • Give our tentative (non-finalized) agreement. Keep things quiet so Hiashi doesn't spring a counteroffer.
  • Fill Akane in on land-clearing, as per our note.
    • Include discussion on finding buyers; ways to improve the land, like irrigation; as well as possible profits, like from chakra monster parts and lumber.
    • Ask her to offer Tsunade ~25% profit if she'll help with legal/political problems.
  • Check in on the refugees tomorrow. Make a show of friendliness and empathy.
    • Learn more about the refugees. Consider adopting/minionizing those with political connections or useful skills like carpentry.
  • Check the casualty list for people we know, like Honoka.
  • Invite Shikamaru to breakfast later this week.
    • Subject: Nara Rebuilding/Construction Assistance
  • Invite Team Nakano (and Jinno) over for lunch.
    • Ask them to bring some honeyed apples for Kagome; he'd love them.
    • Continue discussion of funding till-n-fills they take.
    • Carefully offer to put them 'on retainer': We'd pay them in seals, jutsu, teaching, etc.; they'd supply manpower for running errands, talking to people, or other stuff when we need it.
    • Let Kagome bring up Sealing teaching; he'd be their teacher, after all.
  • Afternoon clan meeting (high-security room):
    • Discuss working with the Yakuza.
      • We could sell them ice/salt, or promise assistance against their rivals.
      • Should we work with Leaf's xor Mist's Yakuza?
  • Continue scribing Skywalkers in our spare time.
  • Contingency: if encounter Ami, spend the favour as discussed.
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faflec said:
Yeah...I ended up cutting almost everything from the old plan to make room for the Mari discussion. It would be a mite unfair for such major changes to happen...so I just made another plan.
Word Count: 293

[X] Action Plan: Mari's Deal
Timeline: Immediately after Chapter 271.
  • Mari:
    • Thank her for her help.
    • Discuss the Hagoromo & Uchiha deals.
      • Uchiha deal:
        • What's the fallout from our Leaf allies/Mist?
        • We have possible changes: How willing are the Uchiha to budge? What will it cost?
          1. An out for the girls that stop giving consent.
          2. An active role in raising the kids.
          3. Some way to keep IN in the Gouketsu.
      • Give our tentative (non-finalized) agreement. Keep things quiet so Hiashi doesn't spring a counteroffer.
  • The Mari situation:
    • Thoughts:
      • TLitF's exact mechanics and her eye color changing appear to be related. Whenever she's used TLitF in the past, her eyes changed (grey to blue to green).
      • Since her 'recovery', her eyes've changed color rapidly: green to brown to purple to green.
      • TLitF's 'price' has been implied to negatively affect her mind. Could it be related to her recovery?
    • Tomorrow morning, discuss with Noburi & Akane (high-security room).
      • Akane: What happened in Leaf while we were gone? Anything related to Mari?
      • Fill them in fully, including our thoughts and private conversations with Mari.
        • Note: TLitF might get us killbox'd. Don't spread the information around.
      • Ask their thoughts. Surely she isn't acting against our interests, but you're worried she's running some self-sacrificial ploy...unless TLitF makes her temporarily sociopathic? You're unsure; did she act a bit off after Tea?
  • Fill Akane in on land-clearing, as per our note.
    • Include discussion on finding buyers; ways to improve the land, such as irrigation; as well as possible profits, like from chakra monster parts and lumber.
    • Ask her to offer Tsunade ~25% profit if she'll help with legal/political problems.
  • Send invitations for later this week:
    • Shikamaru: Discuss Nara rebuilding/construction assistance.
    • Team Nakano & Jinno: Make them retainers
  • Continue scribing Skywalkers in our spare time.
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faflec said:
Alright, so it sounds like this is a pretty contentious topic, given that Inferno Vulpix doesn't want to ask for seals/techniques and I'm leaning towards NO on it. I'll change the format and add the suggestions from MMKII and Sentient Tree above, but will NOT add discussion on the seals/techniques.
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I'm confused by this. We aren't putting a draft out just asking Mari aren't we?
 
Byzantine279 said:
What do ya mean?
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I'm getting the impression that the thread is imploding over deal specifics. By that I mean blowing up a deal it generally supports over being (contextually) pedantic to the point of insult.

"Why are you talking about 'ongoing consent'? What even is that? Why wouldn't any of the wards be overjoyed at the prospect of being impregnated by a shibobi? Are you saying that you suspect that our women are congenitally insane?"

"You are concerned about losing your miserable knock-off of what our enemies are pathetic enough to call a bloodline? We are permitting you to breed with our clan's failed slough in the hopes that the rare result might rise to the level of redeemability. Learn your place you misbegotten cur. If we allow a few mongrels to continue begging for scraps among our ranks for longer than strictly necessary that is none of your concern."​
 
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Ah... hm...

@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail Would it be possible for us to have a mini-update regarding the questions we ask Mari in the immediate sense about how firm the contract is? It doesn't quite seem worth a scene or putting off signing it over if we can get information now...

Lailoken said:
I'm getting the impression that the thread is imploding over deal specifics. By that I mean blowing up a deal it generally supports over being (contextually) pedantic to the point of insult.

"Why are you even taking about 'ongoing consent'? Why wouldn't any of the wards be overjoyed at the prospect of being impregnated by a shibobi? Are you saying that you suspect that our women are congenitally insane?"

"You are concerned about losing your miserable knock-off of what our enemies are pathetic enough to call a bloodline? We are permitting you to breed with our clan's failed slough in the hopes that the rare result might rise to the level of redeemability. Learn your place you misbegotten cur. If we allow a few mongrels to continue begging for scraps among our ranks for longer than strictly necessary that is none of your concern."​
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Ah, see, the thing is, we're in the position of power here over them. They'd use much more polite language than that in telling us off. :p
 
faflec said:
Alright, so it sounds like this is a pretty contentious topic, given that Inferno Vulpix doesn't want to ask for seals/techniques and I'm leaning towards NO on it. I'll change the format and add the suggestions from MMKII and Sentient Tree above.
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If it helps any I don't agree with asking for seal related stuff from the Uchiha in the deal. I would much rather focus on pushing for visitation rights and having Uchiha born IN users marry into the Goketsu. Adding seals and research notes on top off that seems like asking for a bit much to push for right off the bat and could sour negotiations. I'm not saying we couldn't try trading for seal stuff from the Uchiha in the future, just maybe hold off until relations are stronger and more stable.

faflec said:
I'm not sure how this would work and worry that apathy might cause other clans to hedge their bets by voting normally (i.e., for Hyuga) in the hopes that other clans would act against them. Just a thought
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Yeah we're not nearly close enough to the Uchiha to even hint at something like that. That sounds like a pretty easy way to end up in a killbox.
 
Cariyaga said:
Ah... hm...

@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail Would it be possible for us to have a mini-update regarding the questions we ask Mari in the immediate sense about how firm the contract is? It doesn't quite seem worth a scene or putting off signing it over if we can get information now...


Ah, see, the thing is, we're in the position of power here over them. They'd use much more polite language than that in telling us off. :p
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Different words, same meaning.
 
Oneiros said:
I'm confused by this. We aren't putting a draft out just asking Mari aren't we?
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We're just talking to Mari, yes. Given the concerns several people've put out and the poll eaglejarl sent out I don't think anyone's willing to accept the deal as it is. Meaning we'd want to get whatever modifications we can to the Uchiha, get their approval, and then sign the agreement (or whatever we have to do to make it official). Mari's already acting as our proxy in terms of getting deals through, so IMO it's better for us to let her do the talking there while we do talking elsewhere (getting all those meetings with ISC and Asuma and Shino and holy fuck we have so many meetings ffs). Just my reasoning.
Adhoc vote count started by faflec on Jul 1, 2019 at 11:34 PM, finished with 590 posts and 24 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by faflec on Jul 1, 2019 at 11:36 PM, finished with 591 posts and 25 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by faflec on Jul 2, 2019 at 12:16 AM, finished with 593 posts and 25 votes.
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MadScientist said:
please consider Please No.
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Seems reasonable to me, but before I do cast a vote for your plan, two questions.

One--I just cast a vote for another plan. Can I cast a vote for separate plans, or will one or the other end up canceled?

Two--what is Truth Lost in the Fog? Everyone's talking about this, but I don't recall it from the story.
eaglejarl said:
Actually, the place I used to live was on stilts. *shrug emoji* It was a tradeoff between the expected probability of dying in earthquake vs known certainty of saving on rent and living in an amazing neighborhood.

That's not actually relevant to the discussion, I was just reminiscing over pleasant memories. Carry on.
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Really? Ok, I stand corrected about California building codes. Thanks.
 
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Raxner said:
One--I just cast a vote for another plan. Can I cast a vote for separate plans, or will one or the other end up canceled?

Two--what is Truth Lost in the Fog? Everyone's talking about this, but I don't recall it from the story.
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You can vote for as many plans as you like and all your votes count. The plan with the most votes wins.

Truth Lost in the Fog is Mari's superweapon genjutsu that lets her target multiple people at once and also -- if she's willing to pay a mysterious price -- erase their memories of things that happened while genjutsu'd. Her eyes have been changing colour at times that coincided with her casting it. Due to allusions she made to the price, we suspect that the price is either that it eats her happy memories, that it eats her ability to feel wholesome emotions relating to her memories while not removing the memories as such, or that it shifts her personality more and more towards sociopathy with each cast. Her eyes have recently been changing colour nearly every chapter.
 
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MadScientist said:
Truth Lost in the Fog is Mari's superweapon genjutsu that lets her target multiple people at once and also -- if she's willing to pay a mysterious price -- erase their memories of things that happened while genjutsu'd. Her eyes have been changing colour at times that coincided with her casting it. Due to allusions she made to the price, we suspect that the price is either that it eats her happy memories, that it eats her ability to feel wholesome emotions relating to her memories while not removing the memories as such, or that it shifts her personality more and more towards sociopathy with each cast. Her eyes have recently been changing colour nearly every chapter.
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Oh dear--that does sound dangerous. Specifically, it makes it sound as if there's a significant probability that at some arbitrary time, the Mari-sensei that Hazo knows and loves will be effectively replaced by someone that is dangerous to him and to Team Uplift. For all we know, that may have already happened. Which makes me even more worried about the Adoption Plan than I had been. Now it's not just that I disagree with her judgement about the plan's benefits; I can't even rely on it being for our benefit in her judgement.

For clarification's sake, did you mean that while a genjutsu is underway, Mari can erase people's memories? Or did you mean that she can erase memories, provided those memories are of things that happened during the genjutsu?

[X] Action Plan: Please No
 
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