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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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I had a bit of a brain flash last night. Basically we have a pretty solid plan for getting Asuma in the Hokage's seat.

[x] Proto Plan : The Fuhrer is dead, Long live the Fuhrer
  • Check the plan with as many of Team Uplift + ISC + Tsunade as is feasible.
  • Thoughts:
    • So we need at least 8 votes to elect a Hokage, at least 5 or 6 of which are within our voting block. (Goketsu + Senju + ISC + Uzumaki(?))
    • Our major goals when electing a Hokage are:
      • Stability of Leaf
      • Peace
      • Not going to try and kill us
      • Not going to be profoundly regressive
    • The easiest clans for us to influence are the Sarutobi, Inuzaka, and Uchiha.
  • Plan:
    • Get ISC to convince Asuma (or another Sarutobi) to try for the hat.
      • Asuma is their Jounin commander and between Nara and Ino, they should be able to make both a sound and convincing case that he (or someone similarly inclined) is best for Leaf's continued future.
      • The Sarutobi, likely via the third's influence, are likely to be receptive to the less radical of our uplift goals. In the short term:
        • Better training/support for the clanless.
        • Improved QoL/population for the civilians.
        • More stable sources of food/resources via more stable civilian settlements.
    • Via Naruto, try to get Sasuke to push his regent to vote for Asuma.
      • I'm hoping here that being teammates means that Naruto and Sasuke won't hate each other's guts. Basically if they have a more personal connection then Naruto can make the case for Asuma and get a sympathetic ear.
    • Get Asuma to talk to the Inuzaka and appeal to their sense of tradition and the strong History of the Sarutobi clan.
      • The Sarutobi seem like they are trusted and generally pretty neutral politically.
      • The Inuzaka can appreciate that Leaf needs to consolidate its strength and generally stabilize. Asuma having a policy of "Don't rock the boat/keep the peace" shouls be pretty convincing.
      • Asuma should be able to appeal to their loyalty and special skills. In particular detecting and protecting from incursions is going to be even more important given our current vulnerability. The Inuzaka are good at this sort of detection and tracking, and a more prominent role in the military police or border would be beneficial to all parties.
    • See if we (i.e. Mari) can feel out what the Aburame want.
      • Is Shino in the line of succession?
      • They seem pretty passive politically, okay with others taking the lead.
      • They would also be very useful in protecting the peace and making sure we have some solid intel within our borders.
        • Whether this is likely a good tactic to get their support is unknown, but it's true regardless.
    • The other clans, Minori, Hagamoro, etc.. are still unknowns, but we don't need to flip many of then to get Asuma in.
      • Not to mention, that the Sarutobi don't have the same baggage we do with them.
So yeah, I think that in the short term supporting a Sarutobi candidate for the hat (probably Asuma) is our safest bet. Hence why I think exploring the option and discussion with our entire brain trust is a high priority. The only thing I'd rank higher is getting Naruto up to speed and integrated.

We're not really asking for any concessions other than "Don't try to murder us by overwork or using us for missions we're not suited to." Asuma is likely already inclined to like the rest of our goals, and we should be able to gain support for uplifty things by simply revealing our capability and willingness to pursue them. We don't actually need much more than permission from the hat to start progress in that direction.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by eaglejarl on May 11, 2019 at 3:10 AM, finished with 140858 posts and 30 votes.
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Kiba said:
@OliWhail @eaglejarl @Velorien


Some players are expressing discontent by what they perceived as lack of agency or incoming lack of agency(Like said, adoption of Naruto and him becoming clanhead) to the point that they are willing to make really bad decisions(FMPOV) to get out of it.

I just thought you may want to know so that it may be addressed.
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I don't believe it's our place to address it. Joining Leaf was also a major sacrifice of player agency that split the player base.
 
eaglejarl said:
Everything Hazō knows has been shown on-screen.
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But the inverse, i.e. everything that has been shown on-screen is known to Hazou, isn't true. This those questions.
eaglejarl said:
"For a decade, Naruto has been my heir and the closest thing to family that I have aside from Sensei. Also, Sensei and I have been grooming him for politics since he could walk, so I'm pretty sure he'll do a good job as the Clan Head. I am leaving him that position if he wants it, instead of slapping him in the face by leaving it to some rando kid I've known for four months, thereby implying to Naruto that I don't trust him, thereby causing resentment and anger that would ruin any possibility of him working well with the rest of the clan. I could just leave it at that, but I want to show my faith in this weird and sometimes brilliant, sometimes socially clumsy kid that I've known for about four months, so I am appointing him as backup Clan Head in case Naruto doesn't want it or is incapable. I am giving this power to a 15-year-old Hazō directly instead of appointing a regent, and am actually going out of my way to try to ensure that Tsunade will back you up without taking over. I have explicitly stated that you and Naruto can work out who actually gets the job, I'm simply making it clear who has it by default so as to minimize infighting and resentment."
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That was very much not known to us. We never got told that Naruto got specifically groomed for politics, by the Hokage nonetheless. We also didn't have Jiraiya clarify his "work it out between the two of you" line, thus making his private letter to us, which was written on the same day as when he said that and before his last meeting with us, seem contradictory to his words.
Also, clan Goketsu is Jiraiya's clan, which is a sign in favor of giving it to Naruto. But it is also a 100% made up of Team Uplift now who have been together for longer pre-Goketsu than post. And who Naruto never met. Which could well have made a difference in Jiraiya's thought process for all we knew.



Here is the ideal way of how I would like the process for Naruto to become our clan head to look:
  1. We invite him into the family.
  2. In private Hazou honestly lists up all the pros and cons he can think of for either of them being clan head.
  3. He honestly states that he would really like to try his hand at it, at least for a time.
  4. He shows the private letter he got to Naruto.
  5. He listens to any pros, cons or other arguments Naruto has.
  6. Then, when they are on one page (wether they agree or not) they go before the whole clan, repeat the process and listen to whatever input the others have.
  7. If they aren't strongly and unanimously in favor of one or the other, we let Naruto decide what he wants.
  8. If he leaves it up to Hazou, we (the hivemind) have a vote that takes everyone's considerations in mind.
  9. We probably vote for Naruto because if he was willing to entertain all that then he seems like a good leader to follow.
 
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Rafin said:
But the inverse, i.e. everything that has been shown on-screen is known to Hazou, isn't true. This those questions.

That was very much not known to us. We never got told that Naruto got specifically groomed for politics, by the Hokage nonetheless. We also didn't have Jiraiya clarify his "work it out between the two of you" line, thus making his private letter to us, which was written on the same day as when he said that and before his last meeting with us, seem contradictory to his words.
Also, clan Goketsu is Jiraiya's clan, which is a sign in favor of giving it to Naruto. But it is also a 100% made up of Team Uplift now who have been together for longer pre-Goketsu than post. And who Naruto never met. Which could well have made a difference in Jiraiya's thought process for all we knew.
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This is stuff we the hivemind already got told about in some fashion.
 
TBH Naruto as a Clan Head would be a relief in quite a few ways, asuming he is sane enough to act as Clan Head. Hiashi certainly doesn't want to piss Naruto off, and our clan implicitly has an S ranker backing us up. Hazo isn't going to botch things up at a very critical time with Zabuzan Nightmares and his relative youth/inexperience, and can in relative peace focus on Sealing and working in the background.
 
I want Naruto as clan head if he's able/willing. More time for sealing, research, training, and uplift. Plus it would make us more likely to survive, even if Mari goes back to being nonfunctional because of it.
 
Rafin said:
We never got told that Naruto got specifically groomed for politics
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@faflec ?
Rafin said:
That was very much not known to us. We never got told that Naruto got specifically groomed for politics, by the Hokage nonetheless. We also didn't have Jiraiya clarify his "work it out between the two of you" line, thus making his private letter to us, which was written on the same day as when he said that and before his last meeting with us, seem contradictory to his words.
Also, clan Goketsu is Jiraiya's clan, which is a sign in favor of giving it to Naruto. But it is also a 100% made up of Team Uplift now who have been together for longer pre-Goketsu than post. And who Naruto never met. Which could well have made a difference in Jiraiya's thought process for all we knew.
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I regret hearing that you feel this way. Hopefully you will continue to enjoy the quest as it develops.
 
eaglejarl said:
@faflec ?
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False:
Jiraiya said:
Naruto is an insanely powerful ninja; I could probably beat him, especially if I got to prep the terrain, but I wouldn't want to try. More importantly, he was being groomed to be either Hokage or Jōnin Commander when he got older. He had top secret clearance; he knows a lot about Leaf politics, defenses, seals and jutsu, and the personalities and psychological weaknesses of key personnel.
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Sentient Tree said:
I want Naruto as clan head if he's able/willing. More time for sealing, research, training, and uplift. Plus it would make us more likely to survive, even if Mari goes back to being nonfunctional because of it.
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I think we should do that. If anything, Naruto will help us figure out which projects are feasible and which are not. He will increase our agency, not lower it.
 
[X] Let EJ write whatever he wants. I trust him.


If there's something @eaglejarl really wants to write, it would be incredibly ungrateful of us to deny him. I'm hoping for some quality violence and mayhem.
 
eaglejarl said:
I regret hearing that you feel this way. Hopefully you will continue to enjoy the quest as it develops.
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Uuh, that wasn't supposed to be a judgement on the quest. It was supposed to be justification for why some of us voted the way we did and/or made the arguments we made. I mean sure, maybe I judge Jiraiya as not having been clear there, but humans do that some times so I don't see why an author shouldn't be allowed to write it.
I guess your clarification means that it wasn't intended? In which case, shrug, you clarified and now we know.
I am completely fine with the world depriving us of agency. It happens all the time, to everyone, both in MfD and the real world. I was just trying to have Hazou act in a way that doesn't exasperate it.

Noumero said:
False:
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I concede I forgot that. I knew there was some mention of his competence, but it wasn't stated that explicitly in my memory.

Still, making our whole family swear fealty to someone we've never met feels wrong to me. At the very least I'd want a chance to get to know him and some reassurance regarding his method of governance.
 
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Double posting because I have to go to work now and can't wait for someone replying in between. I'd edit, but afaik it screws with quote and mention notifications.

Roomba said:
If there's something @eaglejarl really wants to write, it would be incredibly ungrateful of us to deny him.
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That's always true, isn't it? But overall I think he likes writing a quest. I thought his proposal for us to vote "[] Let EJ write whatever he wants. I trust him." was a tongue in cheek reply to @Raichu1972, not a request for us not to vote in a plan that hampers his flash of inspiration.
@eaglejarl do you actually have something great in mind that you want us to see, which makes "[] Let EJ write whatever he wants. I trust him." a great fit for just this moment specifically? If that's the case I'll vote for it. Because at the end feeling like I have an influence in Hazou's life is nice, but only because this whole thing is such a joy to read.
 
Rafin said:
Double posting because I have to go to work now and can't wait for someone replying in between. I'd edit, but afaik it screws with quote and mention notifications.


That's always true, isn't it? But overall I think he likes writing a quest. I thought his proposal for us to vote "[] Let EJ write whatever he wants. I trust him." was a tongue in cheek reply to @Raichu1972, not a request for us not to vote in a plan that hampers his flash of inspiration.
@eaglejarl do you actually have something great in mind that you want us to see, which makes "[] Let EJ write whatever he wants. I trust him." a great fit for just this moment specifically? If that's the case I'll vote for it. Because at the end feeling like I have an influence in Hazou's life is nice, but only because this whole thing is such a joy to read.
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I don't think it's a response to Pickachu's bigger brother?
 
Rafin said:
@eaglejarl do you actually have something great in mind that you want us to see, which makes "[] Let EJ write whatever he wants. I trust him." a great fit for just this moment specifically? If that's the case I'll vote for it. Because at the end feeling like I have an influence in Hazou's life is nice, but only because this whole thing is such a joy to read.
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In my opinion, suggesting the vote is already pushing the line on player agency and appropriate QM/player interactions in general. You'll need to decide what you want to do without further input.
 
Without getting into the Naruto discussion, there's an observation I'd like to make. For the entirety of this quest's history, the players have always had a competent authority figure limit their agency and provide a safety net against bad ideas. Initially, this was Mari, which then shifted to Jiraiya after we were adopted into Leaf. Some lament the hivemind's passivity and reluctance to question this kind of authority, while others welcome the reliable sanity check - and the players' conservatism and paranoia are not lessened by the fact that our greatest blunders took place when this check was temporarily unavailable. This is how we're used to operating, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I partially see the debate about Naruto's authority over us as a clash between a faction of the playerbase that wants to keep this status quo - this time with Naruto as the authority figure - and a faction which desires real independence and agency. In an amusing parallel, a difficult time in Hazou's life, when he's suddenly forced to grow up and assume a huge responsibility, is also a difficult time for the hivemind, finally having been shown an opportunity to strike out on our own.

I'd personally just like us to not make decisions out of sheer fear of failure or paranoia. Play to win, play to not lose, but to begin with, join the game at all.

Sampatrick said:
There are wide reaching political consequences to us deciding to adopt people into the clan. We cannot just do it without first consulting with the person who will have to deal with the consequences of it. In addition, both plans call for us to make the offer, which will essentially tie Naruto's hands if he were to decide that we shouldn't do it. Akane also isn't as close to us as Noburi or Keiko; not even in the past and certainly not now. Also, yes we should obviously try to avoid making any unforced political actions until we can meet with Naruto. This should be obvious. We shouldn't be making decisions whose consequences Naruto will have to deal with if he takes up the position of clan head.
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On that note, I think this is way too much decision paralysis out of fear of what Naruto will say. This is a time of great upheaval for the village, and we can't afford to sit in our clan compound and do nothing. The costs of that have potential to be much steeper than Naruto's displeasure at our decisions. We don't know what state he's in, whether he's capable or willing to run the clan right now, and said running is a lot of work and stress. So yes, we absolutely should be making decisions that we think are best for the clan, absent any further clarifying information. Do and be damned.

And on that note, Akane has joined the team around the time Kagome has. She's absolutely part of the family. Only difference between her and the rest of us, is that she also has an actual, functional, and loving family, while we only have each other (and Hana, I guess).

Evenstar said:
Agreed: Hazou's ex shouldn't get priority over Keiko's girlfriend.
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She absolutely should. Not because she's Hazou's ex, but because she's been part of the team since close to the beginning. We, as a group, trust her way more than we do Tenten, who's a stranger to anyone other than Keiko (which is notably a consequence of Keiko's actions, and her eagerness to go through with the adoption without having officially informed the rest of the clan of their relationship is frankly irresponsible. In character for Keiko, but irresponsible nonetheless.)

eaglejarl said:
I love the avatar. I'm attached to my current one or I would change to use that. :>
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Credit for that image goes to @MMKII here:
MMKII said:
EAGLEJARL: Look, the "Shout your cool named attack" stuff is pretty much all I've got left here, in-between mountains of talking updates where we go like fifty chapters without anyone fighting each other. You'll have to rip that one out of my cold, sharp, and deadly talons (note the Oxford comma there) so put up your dukes!

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I want Naruto to be clan head.
I want to be very conservative about adoptions (or not adopt anyone).

However these seem to be impossible objectives, considering the state of the vote.
 
[X] Action Plan: Growing Goketsu

Not too fond about pushing adoptions before we get more information though.

To build upon @Roomba's post earlier:

I am in favor of having Naruto become the clan head. Not because I don't think the hivemind couldn't handle politics but because we don't know enough of the rules to play due to being removed from the world. Someone like Naruto (and in an ideal world Hazou but we already know he didn't grow up in a typical clan either) knows how Leaf politics and/or clans work. They can sanity check us on things that we come up with but that might be faulty because we cannot gauge all the consequences due to having grown in the world.

For example, what consequences would it have to adopt Lee and Tenten who make up two-thirds of a team with the other third being coincidentally made up of the "enemy clan"? Do teams normally avoid having more than one person from the same clan or...? We don't know, Naruto would though. Or anyone that grew up in Leaf really.

We also have little past information on what the clans want or how they voted in the past. We want to push Asuma as the Hokage but do we just assume ISC will think the same as us or was supporting Jiraiya over Hyuuga a one time thing?

Again, someone who not only grew up in Leaf but was also groomed as a potential Hokage candidate would know all these things and would be able to tell us this. He'd also be able to handle the day-to-day meetings with clan heads without being taken advantage of.

I would much rather have Naruto be clan head and with us as advising him, and eventually become proficient enough to replace him should the need arise (both by knowing more OOC information and also having Hazou become better at it so he could shoot down bad ideas in plans down by himself since we gave him the agency to do so), than being clan head and reliant on Naruto constantly. The optics would just look bad and we can't always have him around.
Adhoc vote count started by Tua on May 11, 2019 at 8:39 AM, finished with 140879 posts and 32 votes.
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Velorien said:
It is my biggest regret about this entire situation that Ami would not be able to attend the wedding (even if she could figure out what to do about the travel distance and the political implications, the invitation just wouldn't get there in time).
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Condor Summoner is Mist-aligned IIRC.
Adhoc vote count started by faflec on May 11, 2019 at 9:14 AM, finished with 140887 posts and 32 votes.
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