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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Sentient Tree said:
Maybe we could just offscreen as much as possible, and cut the rest(other than Pangolins)?
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About 1/3 of the plan is already "Do it onscreen if you want to.".

The Gai scene is so skippable and independent of the rest of the plan that if @Velorien wants to shelve it off screen he can certainly do so. I'm keeping it in because I think theres a clear order of events here as is, and he may very well enjoy writing it.

The Keiko and the Pangolin conversations are actually important to the main goal of this plan, those we need to keep in there.
 
MMKII said:
Why?
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Based on these comments made by EJ

eaglejarl said:
  • This is an intimidatingly long plan
  • Much of it is descriptive but not actionable. For example, the entire section under "Expansionist tendencies are a problem." -- what would Velorien actually write as a result of that section? Contrast that with "Analyze the situation", which has questions that could inform dialogue or character actions.
  • Scene structure:
    1. Breaks down into 5 major scenes: 'Morning', 'Afternoon', and then three separate dialogue scenes under 'Evening'. Personally, I would find that a bit daunting.
    2. The 'Afternoon' scene could easily be offscreened, which helps a little.
    3. The three scenes which comprise 'Evening' are all going to be fairly spoon-heavy:
      1. "Pangolins" is emotionally charged
      2. The other two require some worldbuilding from the QMs so that we know the answers. That's problematic since:
        1. @OliWhail just got back from a hackathon and is still exhausted;
        2. Velorien has been waggling between poor sleep and illness for a couple weeks; and,
        3. My work schedule is such that I don't overlap with Velorien very much anymore during the week.
      3. If we don't end up getting that done in time for the update then Velorien could either defer those scenes to me or we can simply give you an OOC infodump.
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Now I personally don't care for the pangolin issue and think we are doing entirely to much faffing about. That said it's the dominant concern for much of the player base. So I would rather spend limited QM spoons on that
 
Enjou said:
You know, looking at it the tax actually doesn't make sense. It's expecting a sealmaster to invest a full time job's worth of time every month for no material gain, regardless of whatever else they have on their plate... like an actual full time job.
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It's 100 seals, each of which takes 5 minutes. 500 minutes = ~8 hours over the course of a month. You can probably manage to squeeze some paying work around this commitment.

Enjou said:
Most sealmasters are also ninja, which means they have ninja things to do. For instance, Jiraiya was Leaf's spymaster before getting the hat, and now he's the freaking Hokage himself.
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From the post that you were presumably responding to:
eaglejarl said:
Given the change, it's only 100 seals per month, but that is per recognized sealmaster, which includes both Hazō and Kagome. (Jiraiya gets a pass because he's Hokage and therefore is fulfilling his duty to Leaf in other ways.)
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Enjou said:
Basically, this mandatory donation is Leaf outright robbing it's sealmasters every month, with no regard to how much money the sealmaster is making from selling seals or any of their other labors. It disincentives people from becoming recognized sealmasters in the first place (bad, because the village needs sealmasters), and frankly I can't see the village's sealmasters actually tolerating it.
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Are you one of those "taxes are theft" types, by any chance? If so, this is definitely not a useful discussion. If not, it's just a tax. People in the real world tolerate paying taxes.

faflec said:
We should feed the MC to a Grue.
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No.

MMKII said:
@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail

By the way I want to thank you guys so much for getting this done. Not (!!!) for the license update (I have already thanked you all on this. Right now in fact: Thank you!!) but because you have given us yet another avenue of proving to all that Kagome is the wisest motherfucker on the planet, as you have given us a way to use

EXPLOSIVES

to solve our financial problems!

Kagome is right once again. I cannot wait!

"How do we pay off the rest of the clan compound?" Jiraiya groaned.

"That's simple, consider my massive stockpile of explosives!" Kagome exclaimed.

"How will we afford to break this deal with the Pangolins?" Keiko cried.

"Trivial solution: make more explosives!" Kagome yelled.

"How will we buy out the entirety of the Merchant Council and install catspaws of ours in their place, ensuring an allied civilian hegemony of ours takes economic control?" said Hazou, as he thought Dark and Slytherin thoughts.

"BOOM! SQUISH! " shouted an increasingly more manic Kagome, as he finished printing the fifth case of literal money explosive tags.
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+1 XP and all the smiles

Briefvoice said:
Yeah, 100 seals a month doesn't seem excessive to me. You can knock that out in a few days.

As for why the Merchant's Council is involved in the selling of weapons to ninja, here's my Marvel No-Prize explanation. This is work that the Tower off-loaded onto the Merchant's Council as a burden to them.

See, if the MC didn't exist then the Tower would have to do all the work of getting together the paperwork to register a new sealmaster, copy it into all the appropriate records, etc. But since the MC wants to be responsible for registering ninja powers for civilian use, they also get this dumped on them. Even though it doesn't benefit them in any way or make them any profit. Just a little "fuck you" from the Tower to move some workload off their always busy personnel.
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I like this a lot. I need one more QM to sign off before I can say "YES! THAT! THAT IS THE ANSWER!" I'll see what I can do.
 
I find myself thinking about Fast Jack. He was an almost legendary card sharp and dice wizard who tore his way across the US in the sixties. He had the mafia's blessing and often even their backup in exchange for a cut of his takings.

The Yakuza find themselves preparing for the flood of rich foreign marks during the village's gambling convention of the generation. They'd probably be willing to make arrangements with contractors for help fleecing them.

They'd also probably be willing to pay through the nose for casino seals. Even if they have their own source they can't be a casually accessable good, and they desperately need them right now as they find themselves beyond saturated with unvetted strangers scheduled to skip town.
 
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[X] Action Plan: That Very Same Day

A few thoughts:
MMKII said:
Summarize main problems
  • We do not agree with their behavior
  • Encourages backlash of anti-Pangolin alliance coming for Keiko.
  • Shatters OPSEC on Skytowers.
  • Politically destabilizing
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I feel like we should emphasize 'do not agree with their behaviour' more here, otherwise Hazou will get caught up in arguing practicalities and get shut down because of other practicalities like 'making the Pangolins this strong is making us filthy stinking rich'. We want the core motivation of this is clear: we don't want the Pangolins to genocide the entire Seventh Path.
MMKII said:
Solutions:
  • Leverage: We supply Skytowers.
  • Direct influence from Keiko as a prominent figure in their society.
  • Pressure from the Toads?
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This isn't a solution as much as it is how we would go about implementing one. How about "Suggest they focus on internal consolidation instead of further conquest"?

Other than that, I like the plan.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
I feel like we should emphasize 'do not agree with their behaviour' more here, otherwise Hazou will get caught up in arguing practicalities and get shut down because of other practicalities like 'making the Pangolins this strong is making us filthy stinking rich'. We want the core motivation of this is clear: we don't want the Pangolins to genocide the entire Seventh Path.
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I will bold.


Inferno Vulpix said:
This isn't a solution as much as it is how we would go about implementing one. How about "Suggest they focus on internal consolidation instead of further conquest"?

Other than that, I like the plan.
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"Solutions" => "Potential Solutions" ?

I can rename it "Solution vectors" or something but that seems a bit too obtuse.
 
MMKII said:
"Solutions" => "Potential Solutions" ?

I can rename it "Solution vectors" or something but that seems a bit too obtuse.
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The important part is that we have a solution to offer, rather than just tools at our disposal. IC and OOC both, even if we don't have the best answer it's bad form to go into this and expect other people to make the answers for us without offering any of our own.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
The important part is that we have a solution to offer, rather than tools at our disposal. IC and OOC both, even if we don't have the best answer it's bad form to go into this and expect other people to make the answers for us.
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Ah, yes I see your point.

Cool, will do so.

Hows this?

MMKII said:
Word Count: 354
[X] Action Plan: That Very Same Day

Afternoon:

  • Talk to Keiko about Pangolins
    • CCnJ:
      • Hazou is glad she brought this up (it was worse than we imagined) and wants to make progress on it.
      • He understands that she may not want to talk about it, but has some suggestions that need discussing.
      • It was Hazou's idea to trade for Skytowers, so he feels personally responsible.
      • Regardless he's here for her if she needs support.
    • Keiko is right: we need to stop digging.
    • We want to bring the issue of the Pangolins up to Jiraiya at dinner(See below)
      • (Encouraging) Remember: last time we had an issue with them he solved it quickly and to our satisfaction.

  • Train with Team Gai.
    • Goals: Socialize, Train
    • Gai-sensei runs us ragged, in the name of YOUTH!

Evening/Dinner:

  • Talk with Jiraiya
    • Pangolins
      • Goals:
        • Primary:Stop the Pangolins from committing more genocide and slavery.
        • Secondary: Slow them down.
      • Summarize main problems
        • We do not agree with their behavior
        • Encourages backlash of anti-Pangolin alliance coming for Keiko.
        • Shatters OPSEC on Skytowers.
        • Politically destabilizing
      • Analyze the situation
        • Is this likely one or two zealots in Pangolin High Command?
        • How much of this is Pantsaa?
        • Is this normal for summon clans?
          • What do the Toads think? (Especially about the Condor situation).
      • Solutions:
        • Suggest they focus on internal consolidation.
        • Leverage: We supply Skytowers.
          • Cut supply to only support what territory they can manage?
        • Direct influence from Keiko as a prominent figure in their society.
        • Pressure from the Toads?

Non-essential but desired (off screen/OOC infodump, maybe?) :

Training
  • We were promised "some tricks", we'd like to discuss possibilities.
  • Shadow Clones
    • We suspect the Shadow Clones transfer memories (Itachi vs Naruto).
    • Can we learn this, and use it for better training over the break?
    • Noburi's bloodline and recharging gives effectively massive chakra reserves.
Finances
  • Ask Mari for summary of financial situation.
  • Tournament betting with Mist Yakuza?
    • Should we do a handful of missions to get more seed money for this?
Misc:
  • Hazou gives Jiraiya an organized packet of seal blanks for every seal he's ever seen (with any supporting background info).
  • Hazou spends any free time making explosive tags and storage seals
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eaglejarl said:
It's 100 seals, each of which takes 5 minutes. 500 minutes = ~8 hours over the course of a month. You can probably manage to squeeze some paying work around this commitment.

From the post that you were presumably responding to:

Are you one of those "taxes are theft" types, by any chance? If so, this is definitely not a useful discussion. If not, it's just a tax. People in the real world tolerate paying taxes.
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If it isn't obvious, I missed your post with the changes to the number of seals required. 8 hours a month is significantly less than 40 hours a month. (though I'll note that for most sealmasters it would take more than 8 hours, since they would screw up every now and then due to not having the Iron Nerve)

And no, I'm not one of those "taxes are theft" types. Taxes are an absolute necessity for government to function, and government does provide benefits needed for civilization to flourish. That said, if the government is taxing people far more than the benefits they're able to get out of it (like say in the case of a greedy feudal lord), it might be considered as such. In the case of the 500 seals/40 hours a month, it seemed like it was going a little overboard considering the amount of time the sealmaster was expected to invest without pay - I just wouldn't see that going over well with the village's sealmasters, who would have the power to collectively get together, say "no, this is bullshit, pay us", outside of a situation where survival was so in question that they would need to be cranking out seals all day, every day anyways. I know I would certainly be grumbling quite loudly about that, especially if I had a number of other duties to attend to other than making seals. But only 100 seals/8 hours a month is hardly a major imposition, so I'd be fine with that.
 
Not at all a serious suggestion that's worth mentioning only because it's out-of-the box enough to be interesting, even though it's not very practical in it's current iteration:

Turn most of the clan compound into a tutoring school headed by Kagome. Everyone else can live nearby in the Forest of Death. It's minimally inconvenient for us, and we can charge a nominal fee (means-adjusted) to help pay for the damn thing. Relieves pressure and might (marginally) reduce dependence on Pangolins.
 
eaglejarl said:
It's 100 seals, each of which takes 5 minutes. 500 minutes = ~8 hours over the course of a month. You can probably manage to squeeze some paying work around this commitment.
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Enjou said:
If it isn't obvious, I missed your post with the changes to the number of seals required. 8 hours a month is significantly less than 40 hours a month. (though I'll note that for most sealmasters it would take more than 8 hours, since they would screw up every now and then due to not having the Iron Nerve)
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*cough cough*

*Mathematically trained pedantry mode activate*

Do note that we (unless this has changed as well) are required to donate 50 Alarm Seals a month as well.

This brings the actual work total to 12.5 hours for 150 seals. (150 seals * 5min/seal = 750 mins, 750 mins /60 mins/h= 12.5 hours).

Of course, that only applies if its 50 per month or just 50 flat as a one time payment :lol
Vecht said:
Not at all a serious suggestion that's worth mentioning only because it's out-of-the box enough to be interesting, even though it's not very practical in it's current iteration:

Turn most of the clan compound into a tutoring school headed by Kagome. Everyone else can live nearby in the Forest of Death. It's minimally inconvenient for us, and we can charge a nominal fee (means-adjusted) to help pay for the damn thing. Relieves pressure and might (marginally) reduce dependence on Pangolins.
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But in actuality: We have a massive Orochimaru dungeon pile of basement caverns that are just sitting around being useless.

Put a dojo in there!

Put training facilities there!

Put in some sealing labs (make many exits, dig this one far away from the rest).
 
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Keiko is a logistical analysis goddess. Given this information and even half-hearted estimates of official sealmasters she should be able to use the market price of explosives to identify any unaccounted-for influx of seals. Say, from secret sealing sweatshops. She should be able to do this not only for Leaf, but most regions.
 
By the by, do we have a preference for what kind of seals we mostly sell? Selling explosives would increase the effectiveness of Leaf forces, but selling lots of storage seals could stimulate the economy by promoting trade.
 
Cariyaga said:
Um. There's like four hours there to get started on it.
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It really seems like something to ask Kagome to take the lead on. He has the greater skill, seems to recognize the style, and can help teach Hazou once he figures it out. Right now the important thing is to get them done in time to sell them to the Yaks for all the tea in Tea.
 
Enjou said:
By the by, do we have a preference for what kind of seals we mostly sell? Selling explosives would increase the effectiveness of Leaf forces, but selling lots of storage seals could stimulate the economy by promoting trade.
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We sell explosives purely for the $$$.

We are allowed to sell storage seals "to civilians" mostly. Also, there are zero price restrictions on the storage scrolls. So this is obviously where we can game the shit out of the letter of the rules and figure out a way to arm our own Merchant trade coalition. There are details to be worked out here, but this is the glaring loophole.

Cariyaga said:
Um. There's like four hours there to get started on it.
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*shrug*

Is that a meaningful amount of time? I can put it back in, but IMO I'd rather Hazou print some money instead. Theres a lot of stuff we have put in there for off-screen after dinner purposes too.

I sort of want to just print money with that time, but if enough people want I'll put it back in?
 
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eaglejarl said:
No.
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I think you misunderstood faflec there. He wasn't saying "The QMs should feed the MC to a grue." He was saying "We [the players] should feed the MC to a grue." And considering our prior experience in feeding things to grues, I think we are definitely most qualified. (/s)
MMKII said:
Is that a meaningful amount of time? I can put it back in, but IMO I'd rather Hazou print some money instead. Theres a lot of stuff we have put in there for off-screen after dinner purposes too.

I sort of want to just print money with that time, but if enough people want I'll put it back in?
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I definitely want to. We've put off researching Casino seals for like two IRL years.
Enjou said:
By the by, do we have a preference for what kind of seals we mostly sell? Selling explosives would increase the effectiveness of Leaf forces, but selling lots of storage seals could stimulate the economy by promoting trade.
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Sell Storage Seals at extreme discounts to clanless-nin families.
 
MMKII said:
We sell explosives purely for the $$$.

We are allowed to sell storage seals "to civilians" mostly. Also, there are zero price restrictions on the storage scrolls. So this is obviously where we can game the shit out of the letter of the rules and figure out a way to arm our own Merchant trade coalition. There are details to be worked out here, but this is the glaring loophole.


*shrug*

Is that a meaningful amount of time? I can put it back in, but IMO I'd rather Hazou print some money instead. Theres a lot of stuff we have put in there for off-screen after dinner purposes too.

I sort of want to just print money with that time, but if enough people want I'll put it back in?
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Find some poor civilians, preferably those who have a clanless ninja in their family.
Have Mari train either the civilians or the related clanless ninja (or both) in how to do bargaining and other social skills related to selling stuff.
Give the civilians a loan to buy storage scrolls from us, and sell them a bunch of storage seals at dirt cheap prices, with the understanding that we will start selling them at more reasonable prices once their business is on its feet.
Corner the storage scroll market, merging the civilian business into a partnership with the Goketsu clan, and become the primary provider of storage seals for Leaf.
Make tons of money AND help Leaf by making sure there's tons of storage seals for everyone.


Other clans have their own businesses, why not let the Goketsu have a business in the part of the economy that they specialize in? The clanless ninja will be able to find buyers through their contacts among their ninja peers, we can introduce them to contacts among the clans, and I doubt that any other civilian businesses have access to an entire clan of sealmasters willing to provide them with storage seals to sell.
 
Just an observation, but all the misterator/macerator variants are technically storage seals, including the burp gun. If that's coupled with LBFs there's quite a market even among civilians, which might convince J to let the LBF out.
 
Enjou said:
I know I would certainly be grumbling quite loudly about [being taxed 40 hours per month of my labor], especially if I had a number of other duties to attend to other than making seals. But only 100 seals/8 hours a month is hardly a major imposition, so I'd be fine with that.
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Cool, glad we got sorted.

For the sake of pedantry, I will note that being taxed 40 hours (1 work week) per month (~4 work weeks) is a 25% tax rate. Most people in the USA pay that or more.
 
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@eaglejarl, @OliWhail , @Velorien:

I still think the "50% of seals must be sold at market rate" clause in the rules should also specify that the tower has right of first refusal for those fixed rate sales.

This allows them to have much finer control over their supply of seals, allowing them to stock up in more predictable ways. Otherwise, what is the point of the 50% threshold? They're just more likely to have scalpers that resell seals if there's a mismatch between the fixed rate and what the market can actually bear.

The right of first refusal would create a known fixed price supply that Leaf can use in times of war without allowing sealmasters to raise rates due to demand. Hell, leaf can even just buy up those seals and resell them at a slightly higher price putting an artificial price ceiling onto the whole thing.

I just have no idea how this isn't purely nonsensical as written, and right of first refusal is the simplest good I can think of.

Admittedly I think the more "rational" policy for the tower is right of first refusal on all seals at market rate, but can see how that would be negotiated down to the 50% role since it strips so much power from sealmasters.
 
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