I would like to vote for a plan that talks to the toads and Cannai about supporting us as we go missing.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- Yes.
I agree with this as a course of action, contingent on us a) getting Noburi to agree to go missing; and b) doing it in a way that does not commit to us actually going missing.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Okay, looking it up, it's 80 chakra per training block, not per clone, so I also underestimated the cost of that by a factor of three. I threw all those numbers in a blender and here's a chart showing how many clones Hazou can make for various combinations of "How much chakra Noburi can source for him" and "how much discount the cave water gives":
I did this hastily so there's some risk that it's entirely wrong, but this to my estimation how many clones (each with three training blocks) that we can fully create and fuel for each combination of values. If Noburi can bring us 300 chakra a day and the water gives half-off, we get to run 3 full-strength FOOM clones, or 9 training blocks, out of the total of 19 that we can field. If we assume Prime and 4 training blocks are tied up in sealing research, this gets us to 9/15 FOOM. Not ideal, but perhaps one good discovery away from filling it out.
And even if not, partial FOOM is still partial FOOM. It's more than we're likely to get once Naruto starts fully applying FOOM in Leaf, and it's entirely ours and not Orochimaru's. Nearly doubling our base XP rate is still nothing to sneeze at.
| 0.9 | 0.8 | 0.7 | 0.6 | 0.5 | 0.4 | 0.3 | |
| 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2 |
| 100 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 3 |
| 200 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 5 |
| 300 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 6 |
| 400 | 1 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 5 | 7 |
| 500 | 1 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 6 | 7 |
| 600 | 2 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 7 | 7 |
I did this hastily so there's some risk that it's entirely wrong, but this to my estimation how many clones (each with three training blocks) that we can fully create and fuel for each combination of values. If Noburi can bring us 300 chakra a day and the water gives half-off, we get to run 3 full-strength FOOM clones, or 9 training blocks, out of the total of 19 that we can field. If we assume Prime and 4 training blocks are tied up in sealing research, this gets us to 9/15 FOOM. Not ideal, but perhaps one good discovery away from filling it out.
And even if not, partial FOOM is still partial FOOM. It's more than we're likely to get once Naruto starts fully applying FOOM in Leaf, and it's entirely ours and not Orochimaru's. Nearly doubling our base XP rate is still nothing to sneeze at.
Why does he need 7 clones? He can do 4 training blocks/clone. That's
Also, he needs 80 cp per training block. So 1520 to FOOM. So 325 + 1520 = 1845 total for full FOOM.
EDIT: Looks like it's actually 3 blocks. This is a continual source of confusion for me. Since apparently Sealing Research takes up 4 blocks, but nothing else does.
He can still do it in one cast with no penalty using overcharge. Numbers adjusted.
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Also like, with our current build, No FOOM and incredibly restricted access to Noburi is playing the game on Insane difficulty.
I don't think we get anywhere if we're going to be stuck mono-tracking research with 0.7 times our base rate if we hit stagnation, and any serious unstagnation mission for Hazou without chakra refills to get summons available beforehand is going to be a living hell.
I don't think we get anywhere if we're going to be stuck mono-tracking research with 0.7 times our base rate if we hit stagnation, and any serious unstagnation mission for Hazou without chakra refills to get summons available beforehand is going to be a living hell.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
As I understand it, while Hazou can create clones that last for 12 hours, it is baked into the SC rules that you cannot get more than three training blocks of benefit out of your clones. So for FOOM-clones there's no benefit in keeping his clones out for more than 9 hours, and as a result he needs 7 clones to match his 19 clone-hours.
This does add some fuzz to the numbers in the sense of "that seventh clone actually only needs 80 chakra instead of 240" or "if Hazou dedicates a clone to sealing research that's 4 blocks spent instead of 3" but I, uh, don't know how I would incorporate that into my numbers without it making everything a mess. Suffice it to say there's a little bit of wiggle room.
I was not accounting for this at first but I did realize that mistake and accounted for it in the big table that I more recently posted. That table assumes each clone needs 240 chakra to fully complete its three training blocks, (before cave-water discounting).
Yeah, there's a special exception for sealing research where it takes 4 blocks and everything else takes 3. Probably just to torture the people who track this stuff.
We can still do 7 clones in a single cast. Hazou can overcharge to 330 CP without penalty, and that's enough....actually it might not be. Since we'd have 5 cp left and we need at least 1 for every clone.
If we buy 1 level of CR, we can do it in a single cast for sure.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
See there's this bit of chicken or egg paradox leaking in here. You don't want to 'formalize' our intention of going missing without first making the preparations to go missing. But we'd never make those preparations to go missing unless we already intended on going missing.
I'm not talking about some ironclad, ride or die commitment here. We can and should absolutely reassess at any point during the process if we face significant obstacles.
But if you want to vote, for example, to ask Gamabunta if he'd support Noburi even after going missing, we'd first have to take that step of telling Gamabunta that we're planning on going missing. We have to commit to a certain extent before we can even really prepare. We can't frame it all as a hypothetical and then brush it off as 'haha nah of course that's not really gonna happen I was just asking because... uh... I was writing a story? A fictional story!"
In a sense, if the majority of the thread voted to make those 'going missing' preparations, that would effectively already do what I'm suggesting we do. It would just be a lot worse at unifying the thread. Source: We've already done a good handful of those preparations in the form of learning jutsu and the like that we will lose access to after leaving. And yet I'm sure a decent chunk of people still don't want to leave, and at least one story reader didn't realize that was the thread's intention at all.
I can't speak for everybody, but I'm sure there are plenty of people, myself included, who can respect losing a vote and then stepping up to help optimize the plan for the 'other side', because even if we disagree with their choice we don't want them to fail and bad-end the quest. It'd be much better to have those people who disagree working with you instead of voting against you every step of the way.
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- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
For what it's worth, the chart up and assumes you only have to cast SC once. I just figured it would be too much bother to model that part when we're at least getting some discount from the cave-water that would undoubtedly make it possible even if there weren't other ways to one-cast it.
- Location
- Yes.
I was thinking more of a "Naruto wants us to do this thing (but isn't forcing us to), but we will be eventually labeled missing-nin if this happens, will you still support us if we do this thing?" set of questions. Or something along those lines, I haven't thought it through too much.
We shouldn't hard-commit, but we will need to trust the summons and lay out our hand.
I don't want to loop in Noburi unless we're sure we're going missing in 24hours or less.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
If we're gonna talk to the summons, more importantly if we're going to talk to Kei, Noburi, and Kagome about this, in probably the next update, I'd like for us to actually be clear on what Hazo is thinking about the topic. If we just frame it all as hesitant, "ehhhh should I?" then obviously the people who have become very attached to leaf are going to have strong objections we won't be able to overcome with a halfhearted attitude.
Edit: There is merit to hedging our bets, to deliberate uncertainty preventing an immediate backlash. That will not work in every situation. That is a tactic, not a strategy.
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Huh, talking to the bosses is actually less urgent than GTFOing from leaf.
We could get everyone on a scroll hunt ASAP, then use that time to sort everything out.
We could get everyone on a scroll hunt ASAP, then use that time to sort everything out.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
Speaking of scroll hunts; Hyena scroll. Obviously, we're not going for it, we just said we wouldn't and I'd like to respect that. However as far as an alibi goes, it could still work. Hyena just lost their boss, Pangolin is staring across the border, hypothetically getting their scroll and getting a summoner trained up is pretty time sensitive. We'd need to leave now-ish if we want that scroll to have any impact. If arguments are made that maybe Goketsu having that scroll might not work out very well for all the reasons Kei has already listed, we could point out that having it also ensure other people DONT have it to be making problems for us, and it is still the type of thing it might be useful to have for the future, or to trade away for something of equal value. We just have to sell the lie that Hyena gave us that information, or would be willing to give us that information as part of a larger trade or promise. But who would even be able to call us out on it? Neji? What reason would he have to get involved?
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redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
To a certain extent, sure. But it depends on what sort of group we want to take with us. It's a hard sell that a dog says jump and an entire leaf clan moves. But if the leaf clan is making moves for its own profit, then its just business as usual.
[X] Action Plan: Road Trip!
- Sanity check with Mari. Follow her suggestions.
- We're going on a scroll hunt!
- We head out tomorrow.
- Mari/Kagome/Noburi/Kei/Snowflake/Yuno, you're all coming.
- Ino, sorry for the short notice, but will you join us?
- We can bring Haruhisa, and continue TH training at camp and on non-running days.
- Kei, would you like to include Tenten?
- The extra firepower would be great, and it's a chance for her and uplift to get closer.
- Mari
- Learn all the lighting library jutsu.
- Pack heavy
- Subtly encourage Kei/Snowflake to say goodbyes or otherwise emotionally prepare them for separation from the snowglobe.
- Kagome
- Pack extra-well. We're counting on you to make sure we're safe and supplied if the mission goes ....long.
- Haruhisa (if Ino joins)
- Ask him to join us in the field to continue training. We'll pay mission rates on top of teaching rates.(we'll pay a LOT if needed)
- Hell, if this goes well, and he thinks the goketsu is the right place for him, we'd love to adopt him.
- Ask him to join us in the field to continue training. We'll pay mission rates on top of teaching rates.(we'll pay a LOT if needed)
- Reo
- You're acting clanhead.
- Don't just "keep the lights on", lead.
- You have full access to the vaults, uplift projects, ect. If an opportunity presents itself, don't be afraid to act.
- Try to connect with the other goketsu as a leader, as well as a clanmate. Listen, delegate, ect.
- Oh, and can you check in on Mio occasionally? Be a friend to her.
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- Location
- Central Standard Time
I don't vote often, but I'm going to commit to voting against (or abstaining, see: "I don't vote often") plans that commit to going missing. This includes plans that commit towards indications of doing so.
Does it change the bottom line? Would you decide against going missing if Cannai doesn't approve?
(but it really think he'll be OK. We have an enormous ammount of respect and goodwill from him, he cares more about hazo than he does about leaf, and he's counting on Hazou for the Great Rune *and* to scare off the pangolins. We got this)
I probably would, actually. I think without his support we're kinda screwed. More screwed than we are already.
And you know, even if he is willing to back us, it's still a dick move to spring that on him without talking about it beforehand.
- Location
- Temporally? Now.
To be fair, he immidiatly considerably walked that back, and did just learn new information that makes the prospect of us going missing (to him) much less acceptable.
People have brought up the ocean as a solution. I'd like to bring up "the swamp of death" (and places like it). Though all the calculations I've seen about continuing FOOM as missing nin have only been for Hazou's chakra requirements, not Mari or Kei's (and we do need to bring Kei if we're talking to her about it beforehand and letting her know it's Naruto approved (kinda, sorta, not really)).
There's another possibility that I haven't seen anyone bring up, so even though I don't think is a strictly superior option, we should at least consider: assassination.
Maybe we can't kill Akatsuki (yet) but we definitely can kill Sasuke, or whoever else Noburi is tasked towards. There are obvious implementation details (mostly just masking that it's us doing it), but that could prevent FOOM from being taken from us.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
I think this is a little bit too sudden. I know we're pressed for time but...
More than the suddenness, I guess I'm objecting to the lack of real preparation or choice we're giving everybody else. It might not literally kill them, but it'll be devastating no matter how they choose. I'd like to mitigate that to whatever degree we figure is possible.
Could we bring any of them with us? Tenten in particular? Big ask but Hazo the kinda guy who moves mountains for his people. We wouldn't be going pretty damn far if we didn't even make the attempt. Kinda selfish to ask this of a clan head but refuse to consider the orphan.
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Good, he will have no trouble acting the part then!
Gosh, on one hand, this is getting out of hand. The more people we invite, the harder it will be to gracefully turn missing-nin without admitting that Naruto approved it.
On the other hand, we could just fess up about kage approval, Tenten offers firepower,
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