If you have an idea for what encompasses this "anti-Akatsuki runic array" please share it. As it stands, a magic "I win" rune is not an actual option for us to research.

With skywalkers we had an idea for how they'd work, and it still took months. We cannot rely on vagueness as a substitute for how the runes are supposed to operate.
First idea I had, mentioned quite a while back, was a rune-powered air dome large enough to cover the entire city. If they can't simply hop over the walls, more conventional sorts of defenses can then be focused on the resulting choke points. Seal-based barriers at gates (toggleable by low-level ninja guards so they can let approved traffic in), barrel just beyond the barrier with directional explosives underneath set to go off when it's used as a substitution target, etc. Since it's designed to address a well-known existential threat to Leaf as a whole, we're not necessarily limited to Goketsu resources for sorting out all the details.
The key part I'm proposing now, though, is making it Oro's problem. He's the one who worked with Akatsuki, he knows what they've got, how they think, which esoteric movement options they'd try first. If Hidden Leaf burned down, he'd be inconvenienced - since he keeps a lot of his stuff there, plus the Final Gift Program - so defending it could be worthwhile for him even if there were no direct research benefits.
Kakuzu didn't die of overlooking some esoteric loophole, or even really the specific physical trap. What got him killed was taking the hands-on approach with a whole city full of people who'd rather burn him alive than negotiate, which he had to do because Akatsuki still mostly act like a pack of missing-nin instead of having a proper chain of command for delegation and defense-in-depth. Given that Orochimaru wants to avoid making the same mistake, personal investment in Leaf's perimeter defenses is a big step in the right direction. Doesn't just directly make the Basement safer, it'll make the Hokage consider him more of an asset and less of a liability, worth rescuing rather than finishing off when-not-if he gets his own bad luck. Sharing details of the defense plan isn't some underhanded scheme to extract more shinies, it's a necessity of allowing said plan to function at all, by allowing other Leaf nin to productively interlock with it. Runes aren't portable anyway, static defense is the obvious niche for them.
And there will be research benefits, by forcing him to get creative about combining the raw power of whichever rune effects are easy to research with all the other stuff he's already got available. Maybe he'll run enough tests in the Basement to figure out that burns from the high-wattage runic equivalent of HOWS have a different depth profile at different wavelengths, and then crank it beyond the normal spectrum to create a cancer ray which cooks intruders right through their armor before they notice there's a threat, or "invisible flashbangs" which are harmless to anyone who lacks a cheaty-eyeball bloodline.
 
The specific scenario I was imagining was something along the lines of "we do some politics and leverage AMITY as a wall between the Akatsuki and Hazou, forcing them to sit and watch as he does necromancy faster than them."...

...Even if we start trying to pressure the Akatsuki, if we rattle our sabers about sovreignity and get the other AMITY villages to rattle their sabers as well, if we make a lot of hot air and bluster that they're not alloewd to touch a single hair on Hazou's head, the Akatsuki won't flip the table as their first resort. They might call the bluff, walk into Leaf anyways and rummage through Hazou's belongings on the expectation that Leaf won't actually press the big red button over this. It'd honestly be a good bet: Leaf wouldn't press it unless at minimum all the other villages were ready to as well, but how can Leaf trust Rock to follow through when doing nothing keeps their ninja safe and lets Leaf get destroyed by angry Essies? The Akatuski's first resort, calling our bluff, is likely to work...

...if we've made a miracle happen and successfully convinced the Akatsuki that the only way to stop Hazou from doing necromancy (because that's obviously what he's doing if Leaf is going so far to protect him) is to disregard AMITY and face the wrath of the whole world, we still might not avoid Itachi walking into our house and rummaging through our belongings. It, well, it becomes uncertain, an open question, but it's still not a confident victory.

And if the Akatsuki did decide to do this, to make everyone else their enemy in order to stop us, well, that's just putting them back at square one, right? They lived like that before, hunted by the world, they don't need to actually fight everyone, just survive the inevitable hostility. Attacking them at the rift site is, well, how exactly do we get more than Leaf signed up for this BotG round 2 without leaking the secret of necromancy to the world at large? Our personal plans for exploiting this scenario often involve a cold rune, a nuke option that absolutely devastates static targets even with minimal manpower, but if the idea is to gather the world's combined essies and overpower the Akatsuki at a hard point they can't retreat from, I feel we'd follow that up with an incredibly brutal WWV over control of the rift site, because whoever owns the rift has an unprecedented military advantage over everyone else.
I think we're talking at cross purposes here! The going missing-nin decision is currently being framed as "it definitely sucks, but since it's the only way to prevent Pain winning the setting we need to do it". I don't think that is true: going missing-nin may be the best way to optimize for Leaf gaining exclusive control of the rift. But there are a number of scenarios we can work toward that may not optimise for Leaf necro-hegemony but successfully prevent Paintopia. Most importantly, adding "Leaf brings resurrection secret to AMITY" to the list of possible tactics, we open up a number of possibilities.

As a worst case if we treat revealing the rift secret as the nuclear option, by pre-committing to sharing it on our death or interrogation that becomes the teeth of our "big red button".
At its best, we benefit from the fact that "control the rift" is a way better strategic war paradigm than "destroy the enemy's civilian population/farmland". It rewards defence over attack, which is great for us, considering we've just re-invented a sealing discipline that appears to be primarily useful for defense. But better than that, using the rift requires having the power majority for a prolonged period of time which promotes alliance at the geopolitical level. It probably will be a non-negligible problem to curb each nation's knee-jerk reaction of "I must declare war and control this shiny" (which is a terrible idea because you'll immediately be torn to shreds by literally everybody else). But if we can do that, a shared rift is not optimal, but not a loss condition.

And then lastly, there's the solution of Oro just closing the rift. It would obviously be hugely disappointing, but it isn't losing the setting. But without a plan for how we'll actually secure the rift long enough to successfully do a necromancy rescue, I don't think ruining the Gouketsu and subjecting Ino and any other loved ones we leave behind to possible/probable torture is worth going missing under the slim hopes that we'll figure something out.
 
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Ask me something else before I lose my patience
We could propose a Veterancy trade, where we each research a basic seal effect and swap the research notes afterwards. Accelerating the climb up the learning curve, especially given the apparently catastrophic risks of a Runic Failure, would be advantageous for both of us (and Leaf in general).

I'd prefer to make this offer after the Consequences clear, ofc
 
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped

If we ask Kei about how high Nara ninja usually level Shadow Step compared to Sub/Ath, is she willing to tell us?
She cannot tell you.

Most ninja keep Sub at 1/2 the level of their Ath
I don't think we've ever made a statement to this effect.

Does this include all of the XP that Kei has accrued after the Orochimaru Deal was first established?
We've been trying to have Kei level it since then, could we place the limit there? Or at the very least, since we first received the mechanics for it, rather than when we received it, narratively?
I think the training plan should be fine to implement with all of that in mind.
Orochimaru taught Mari the techniques in Chapter 641, so Kei will only be able to learn them now. Only XP earned in the upcoming update and beyond can be spent on Cloak of the Wind God.
 
First idea I had, mentioned quite a while back, was a rune-powered air dome large enough to cover the entire city. If they can't simply hop over the walls, more conventional sorts of defenses can then be focused on the resulting choke points. Seal-based barriers at gates (toggleable by low-level ninja guards so they can let approved traffic in), barrel just beyond the barrier with directional explosives underneath set to go off when it's used as a substitution target, etc. Since it's designed to address a well-known existential threat to Leaf as a whole, we're not necessarily limited to Goketsu resources for sorting out all the details.
Ah yes, personally, I think Akatsuki wouldn't have much trouble getting through a runic Air Dome. It might take them 15 whole seconds, but they could do it. Even Durability:12 (which is well outside the range I'd expect to get, 10 seems reasonable) could be broken in just a few rounds by a single determined essie, much less a whole team of them, a team that includes Deidara.

Additionally, publicly installing and activating such an array would leak lithosealing to Akatsuki, which would either cause them to rally AMITY and give Leaf the Whirlpool treatment, or just come and see for themselves, prempting the fight. Since I don't think a runic Air Dome could actually hold them off it would just preemptively destroy Leaf. Whoops.
The key part I'm proposing now, though, is making it Oro's problem. He's the one who worked with Akatsuki, he knows what they've got, how they think, which esoteric movement options they'd try first
Sure, other people have mentioned this, but Oro isn't going to do this. Not even if we try to frame it as "homework" or something equally banal. He doesn't need to defend Leaf, and it sounds quite difficult.
 
Additionally, publicly installing and activating such an array would leak lithosealing to Akatsuki, which would either cause them to rally AMITY and give Leaf the Whirlpool treatment, or just come and see for themselves, prempting the fight. Since I don't think a runic Air Dome could actually hold them off it would just preemptively destroy Leaf. Whoops.
Not to mention that merchants and farmers still need a way to deliver their goods to Leaf, and that provides a way for the Akatsuki to enter Leaf.
 
Ah yes, personally, I think Akatsuki wouldn't have much trouble getting through a runic Air Dome. It might take them 15 whole seconds, but they could do it. Even Durability:12 (which is well outside the range I'd expect to get, 10 seems reasonable) could be broken in just a few rounds by a single determined essie, much less a whole team of them, a team that includes Deidara.

Additionally, publicly installing and activating such an array would leak lithosealing to Akatsuki, which would either cause them to rally AMITY and give Leaf the Whirlpool treatment, or just come and see for themselves, prempting the fight. Since I don't think a runic Air Dome could actually hold them off it would just preemptively destroy Leaf. Whoops.

Sure, other people have mentioned this, but Oro isn't going to do this. Not even if we try to frame it as "homework" or something equally banal. He doesn't need to defend Leaf, and it sounds quite difficult.
Air Dome is a Chuunin Seal so it makes a poor base - we should be aiming at a Jounin-tier Rune collab with Orochimaru here. But even Air Dome I don't think would be as low as Durability : 10/12, given the sheer empirically shown difference between explosive Seals and Runes. Not to mention that when we discovered Primordial Sealing we were explicitly told that we can expect about an order of magnitude difference in barrier durability between Runes and Seals.

Therefore, I don't see Barrier Runes being softer than an S-rank Defensive Jutsu of two ninja tiers (2 x 20 = 40 levels) above the design. Why? Well, because.. a Jounin Barrier Seal (TN ~60) like the Violet Flame Barrier is already capable of withstanding S-rank attacks which puts it at minimum Durability : 12, equivalent to Whirlwind Barrier 70 or 10 levels above its TN estimate. A Rune has to be far stronger, even before considering the fact the unique advantages that being a static barrier designed from the ground up as a village defense confers, namely that it can be as big as needed (we have reason to believe that bigger = more powerful) and use as much chakra as necessary because a Jinchuriki and the Leaf ninja manpower can supply a lot - so the design could trade efficiency for power at margin and still come out ahead.

I would expect a Violet Flame Barrier Rune (TN ~60) to produce a Barrier of Durability no less than 30 levels stronger than its Seal version, which would then correspond to Whirlwind Barrier 100 or Durability : 15 (TN 150 + 15 Boxes). I would not be surprised to see an optimized design push Durability : 17 (TN 170 + 17 Boxes). And its not like we can't combine several Runes into a defensive network either, there is no need to rely on just one. We could even mix such a defensive array with offensive countermeasures like a runic version of Monuments of the Thunder God. To be clear, I am not saying Runes would make for an invicible defence but I don't see six S-rankers bruteforcing a Jounin Barrier Rune when a Jounin Barrier Seal is already an obstacle. Nagato could probably do it. Deidara? I don't think so. I would expect that they would need to work around it.
 
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The original Wakahisa deal had not yet been finalized and approved by the Wakahisa clan (visible, for example, by the hilariously lopsided list of "The Wakahisa give:" compared to "The Gōketsu give:", and that the original deal let you keep 25 koi, yet Lord Wakahisa unilaterally amended it to be 40 since he was only able to ship a small number at once due to logistical constraints). While the full negotiation details were off-screened, the Wakahisa were ultimately not obligated to hand over any ninjutsu in the final agreement.
Low spoons, insert: moderate amount of discontent and a skepticism, begrudging acceptance.

Increase this to "highly" discontent.

My skepticism wrt the Minato Seal from Naruto and the Jiriaya Seal Hoard is increased. Until they're in our hands, I'm going to assume that they don't exist. And afterwards, too.

I will now be very inclined to vote towards aggressive/trade-at-explosive-point tactics against Mist.
 
Increase this to "highly" discontent.

My skepticism wrt the Minato Seal from Naruto and the Jiriaya Seal Hoard is increased. Until they're in our hands, I'm going to assume that they don't exist. And afterwards, too.

I will now be very inclined to vote towards aggressive/trade-at-explosive-point tactics against Mist.
Tbh I really do not feel scammed to not receive like three Leaf-library tier jutsu from the Wakahisa that we wouldn't have leveled anyways
 
Tbh I really do not feel scammed to not receive like three Leaf-library tier jutsu from the Wakahisa that we wouldn't have leveled anyways
No, but as @faflec can attest we were told point-blank by the QMs that we had received them and they were only unspecified because the QMs hadn't written them yet.

That's the part that feels scamy.


EDIT: Nevermind! This was just an honest mixup. Complaint withdrawn.
 
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It might take them 15 whole seconds, but they could do it.
If the first lasts long enough for another - infused in advance - to be brought online a few inches inside it, we can win by attrition. Time and chakra that Deidara spends tearing down rune-reinforced walls is chakra that he doesn't have left for blowing up stuff we care about, and time that Leaf nin can use to get in position, warm up their buffs, summon a boss rush, etc. rather than being caught by surprise.
Not to mention that merchants and farmers still need a way to deliver their goods to Leaf, and that provides a way for the Akatsuki to enter Leaf.
I did already mention that, actually. Under the edge of the dome, wagons and foot traffic could come through some sort of gatehouse, permitting civilian traffic to pass after inspection (likely to be an endless source of D-rank missions for Hyuga - and one of the few things we can be reasonably confident Akatsuki don't have is perfect disguises, thanks to the grue) but discouraging speedrunners through strategic placement of force walls, skyslicers, and/or various tricks from the existing library of killbox components.
Defending a choke point is a much more tractable problem than the entire sky, so, if a runic dome is solid enough it channels intruders into the same narrow route as civilian traffic, that basically counts as a win on the dome's part.
 
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If the first lasts long enough for another - infused in advance - to be brought online a few inches inside it, we can win by attrition. Time and chakra that Deidara spends tearing down rune-reinforced walls is chakra that he doesn't have left for blowing up stuff we care about, and time that Leaf nin can use to get in position, warm up their buffs, summon a boss rush, etc. rather than being caught by surprise.
30-60 seconds is exactly how long it takes to activate another rune, and the barrier will be down by then. This assumes someone activates the second rune the instant Akatsuki attacks, with literally zero seconds elapsed. Which is not likely to happen.
 
No, but as @faflec can attest we were told point-blank by the QMs that we had received them and they were only unspecified because the QMs hadn't written them yet.

That's the part that feels scamy.
yall can fuss about whatever you like I guess, to me this seems pretty unimportant/inconsequential and bein snappy w the QMs for not much gain

Of course if the QMs want to make it up to us I take donations in Fate Points :^)
 
"Oro was here until the end," Lady Tsunade growled. "He died a hero."

For the first time, Pain flinched in surprise.

"He really was the best of us," he said thoughtfully after a second. "He had the resolve to leave. The resourcefulness to survive our assault. The courage to challenge what he knew were impossible odds. Perhaps if he'd fought with us rather than against us…"
If he reunited the Abomination's body and its mind… wouldn't that have the potential to resurrect it in full?"

"Not quite," Orochimaru said, cracking a slight smirk that quickly faded. "Though it is a reasonable conclusion to reach. No, I do not believe anyone is mad enough to attempt the beast's resurrection, and Pain, for all his madness, did ultimately want peace for humanity rather than ruin. His path to peace was monstrous, of course, but it was not the immeasurable suffering that a returned Tenfold Abomination would have promised."
 
30-60 seconds is exactly how long it takes to activate another rune, and the barrier will be down by then. This assumes someone activates the second rune the instant Akatsuki attacks, with literally zero seconds elapsed. Which is not likely to happen.
That's the lag for explosives, a dome might work differently. Assuming fifteen seconds for an S-ranker to smash through one layer of air dome, and sixty seconds delay for bringing up a new layer from a cold start, five layers active full-time could provide some margin of safety without giving away how many are available.
 
Technically speaking, we were only ever told that it was based on a jutsu that could block kage level attacks, not that the seal could too.
Hm.. perhaps that was the wording, I'll admit I don't remember exactly. Still, the intent seems similar enough still.

I would expect a Chuunin Barrier Rune to be impervious to Jounin and able to block a few Kage-tier attacks and a Jounin Barrier Rune to be impervious to Kage-tier attacks and require SS-rank ones to truly breach, meaning there might be 1-2 Ninja in living history at any given time who are capable at any given time and probably none right now since Nagi Island is still fresh. But perhaps I'm wrong...

It's a concern for sure. Highly leveled ninjutsu tend to be substantially stronger than anything a seal can produce.
@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped
Does Hazou know approximately how the static, Jounin-tier Barrier Seal he was working on stacks up against S-rank and Jounin-tier attackers?
He is the best Sealmaster Leaf has after all (besides Oro, maybe even then) and has explicitly been assigned the task of researching it by Asuma, which presumably included its specifications. An approximate durability grade would be useful before we venture into researching static defenses.

My reading is that a static Barrier Seal is generally near-impervious to attacks by ninja of its rank (TN) and resistant to those a rank above (TN+20).
For example, that a Chuunin Barrier Seal can survive Chuunin-tier attacks almost indefinitely and can be relied upon to weather a few Jounin-tier attacks while a Jounin Barrier Seal would be able to survive Jounin-tier attacks for a very long time and block a few Kage-tier ones.
 
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I don't remember seeing it said in the thread yet, but Runes make "Hidden Heaven" feasible again. Oro's stealth seals make it defensible.

We could change the genre of the quest to Kerbal Space Program if we wanted to.
 
That's the lag for explosives, a dome might work differently. Assuming fifteen seconds for an S-ranker to smash through one layer of air dome, and sixty seconds delay for bringing up a new layer from a cold start, five layers active full-time could provide some margin of safety without giving away how many are available.
You're assuming that Deidara won't have an explosive that obliterates the domes entirely. Or that Sasori won't have a seal that shuts down active chakra effects. Or that Konan can't control paper inside the domes. Or that Kisame can't shred the domes in a single hit with Samehada. Or that Itachi's Sharingan won't mass genjutsu the defenders. That 15 second number is just my estimate of how long it'll take one member to break it, assuming they use minimal chakra and essie sauce. If they're trying as hard as they can I'd expect them to break past any barrier in short order.

Admittedly, I expect that this would be enough to stop Hidan. But he's by far their most unimpressive member. They have access to such a wide array of abilities that a single countermeasure is never going to stop them. And no set of countermeasure can reliably stop them. Just look at Oro refusing to share his countermeasures, because they're not going to work more than once.
 
You're assuming that Deidara won't have an explosive that obliterates the domes entirely. Or that Sasori won't have a seal that shuts down active chakra effects. Or that Konan can't control paper inside the domes. Or that Kisame can't shred the domes in a single hit with Samehada. Or that Itachi's Sharingan won't mass genjutsu the defenders. That 15 second number is just my estimate of how long it'll take one member to break it, assuming they use minimal chakra and essie sauce. If they're trying as hard as they can I'd expect them to break past any barrier in short order.

Admittedly, I expect that this would be enough to stop Hidan. But he's by far their most unimpressive member. They have access to such a wide array of abilities that a single countermeasure is never going to stop them. And no set of countermeasure can reliably stop them. Just look at Oro refusing to share his countermeasures, because they're not going to work more than once.
That seems like a pessimistic take as to the potential of the legendary art that has been lost since the times of the Sage, which we know had been used to outright create/split dimensions, seal apocalyptic threats to the world and murder the literal gods of the setting.

Orochimaru does not seem to share this pessimism and neither does anyone else we have told of it. Some caution is certainly prudent, it definitely will have limitations - but dismissing the very idea out of hand? It costs Hazou far less XP at this point to pursue Runic research than any alternative that can swing the odds against S-rankers - and the quicker we get a decent PS level, the quicker we can gauge just what it can do.

It costs just 570 XP to hit PS 26 (Eff. 51 AB 3, Prep 57). This means a high-effort roll with FP burning for invokes and rerolling until +3 dice hits TN 66 or around 70 if we get Orochimaru to collaborate with us on a Rune or teach PS to Kagome (which we really should, its the best use of his XP). Assuming we work up a veterancy chain, 570 XP lets us research Jounin-tier Runes and I don't think any other skill offers comparable returns.
 
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yall can fuss about whatever you like I guess, to me this seems pretty unimportant/inconsequential and bein snappy w the QMs for not much gain
This isn't the first time that we've had jutsu (which we've had narrative access to) yoinked away when we've actually tried to engage with it, without receiving anything to replace it.

The Chakra Sensor Jutsu was something that I, personally, looked forward to doing science with. I didn't try and hide this fact in the hopes that the QMs wouldn't notice the existence of the Chakra Sense Jutsu. I was very open about it, posting ideas and build plans in the thread.

I was really looking forward to conducting research between Chakra Sense Jutsu, Chakdar, Vampiric Dew, Minato Sensor Seals, Kagome's sensor seals, and then trying to pull in Hyuuga and Uchiha bloodlines to try and discover a point of overlap between all those methods. It would've gotten us more lore about the setting, a greater understanding of the magic system, and could have led to a better chakra detection seal.

But then the Chakra Sense Jutsu got grued to retain narrative/worldbuilding cohesion, without anything to replace it. Sure, it feels bad, and stings, but it's understandable.

In this case, we have a small collection of jutsu that we've possessed, narratively, for quite a long while, all yoinked away for... no stated reason? Doylist or Watsonian? It's just grue'd, offscreen.

If we had known these jutsu would have been denied to us months/years ago, I would have argued more strongly in favor of breeding the koi when we were discussing it. And the hivemind might have been in a more receptive place to hear it. After all, the only reason we declined to breed the koi beyond the agreed-upon amount was because we thought the Wakahisa were playing fair with us, and sought to return the sentiment.

More koi, earlier, would have led to less reliance on buying chakra from Leaf, greater FOOM opsec, and even summoning the Toad Sages earlier than we did. This earlier Summoning would have allowed Hazou to make a first impression sooner, and we could have begun our soft-approach on learning Sage Mode earlier than we did.
 
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