As an aside, I often feel like we keep all the cool toys away from you guys. The problem is that every time you come up with something super shiny we have to ask ourselves "ninja have been around for centuries. Why did no one think of this?" Whatever answer we come up with has to apply to you as well.
What about the Kurosawa clan? Surely they would have figured this out by now.
The thing is, "other people would surely think of that" is a fully general counterargument against innovations.
Sure, people could think of any of our ideas. Sometimes, they could try their idea once, fail and give up. Sometimes they could try, succeed, and then be eaten by chakra hamsters. Sometimes, they could try, succeed, develop their technique, and then take it to the grave with them. Sometimes they would succeed, tell the tale of their success, and found a clan, with their discovery serving as foundation of its might. Sometimes, and it's more common in a deathworld where people are too busy struggling to survive to think much than in our civilized world, people just don't think obvious thoughts for centuries. Camouflage was not widely used until eighteenth century, for Jashin's sake!

There must be a more balanced approach than "any innovation in ninja combat that could be discovered, already was discovered. Everything not used isn't used because it was tried and discarded". Ninja villages are not that big, and they are too busy killing each other to perform comprehensive research.

That said, I'm not sure how to improve the situation, gameplay-wise.

Um. That rant got rather bigger than I expected. Now I feel obliged to add that I really enjoy playing this quest, I really like the worldbuilding and thought you put into, basically, everything. @Velorien, @eaglejarl, thank you for your effort, I really appreciate it even if I sometimes loudly complain about small things.


What about the rest of the team? Is Hazou just supposed to leave them and go missing-missing-missing-nin now?
No, we just might have to split the party. (Yes, I know it's a terrible idea)
Why would we want to level any single skill to 50?
We wouldn't, naturally. It is a thought experiment to see if really high level of some skills gives us a game-changer.
 
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If we ever get sealing 50, we should try making a time travel seal and go save Hidden Swamp.

As for the current plan, do we have enough chakra for Keiko to try summoning Pandaa again? It would let us check if he made it out in time and if he did he could help dig a hole for us to sleep in.
 
Um. That rant got rather bigger than I expected. Now I feel obliged to add that I really enjoy playing this quest, I really like the worldbuilding and thought you put into, basically, everything. @Velorien, @eaglejarl, thank you for your effort, I really appreciate it even if I sometimes loudly complain about small things.

It's less about "you can never do anything cool" and more about "it can't be too obvious."

I appreciate the attaboy, though.

As for the current plan, do we have enough chakra for Keiko to try summoning Pandaa again? It would let us check if he made it out in time and if he did he could help dig a hole for us to sleep in.

Yes. Summoning Pandaa takes 10 chakra and she currently has 31.
 
it's more common in a deathworld where people are too busy struggling to survive to think much than in our civilized world, people just don't think obvious thoughts for centuries. Camouflage was not widely used until eighteenth century, for Jashin's sake!
I like that the implication here is that earth is, in fact, a deathworld :D Reminds me of the "Humanity, Fuck Yeah" genre of sci-fi (see a pretty good example here, for anyone unfamiliar)

If we ever get sealing 50, we should try making a time travel seal and go save Hidden Swamp.
I don't think that's how time travel works, given that we know Swamp got wrecked. Or do you mean we should travel to an alternate timeline?

It would let us check if he made it out in time and if he did he could help dig a hole for us to sleep in.
Interesting suggestion. I'll put it in the protoplan for now.

Before actual feedback, why did you change your plan inside the quote but not the original post? That seems kinda weird to me. (...and makes quoting the plan a pain.)
...because I only have like Awareness 2. Shhh, don't tell anyone.

Wait, did hugs actually win that vote? Curses.
Yup. Improvements welcome (from @Muer'ci and @Jello_Raptor as well, as I think you guys were involved in that process?)

you should link every post you make a reference to
Inoue is the least tired of us, but Akane is a big girl. Having two people carry her might be for the best. Also swapping the people carrying her periodically would also make us last longer.
We would be better off putting our efforts towards making the preliminary camp spot as hard to find as possible
Besides, if anyone gets close enough to take a look at our faces, we are already utterly buggered.
[the adults] will also keel over...which would be really bad
Good points. Should all be addressed, let me know if I missed one or more -

E: Added some more reasoning
[] Proto-Plan: Breathe, Drink, Flee
Goals
  1. Survive.
  2. Get out of semi-immediate danger, recover somewhat
  3. Get to more long-term safety, begin full recovery
Methods
  1. Noburi finishes field-treating Akane.
  2. Get moving again, rotating two-person teams to assist/carry Akane. Hopefully this will let us move a little further before we need to rest.
  3. Continue on our route to Iron to get away from the area of the forest fire.
    1. The fire will have drawn a lot of attention. Prefer speed at first to get clear of the area, then switch to stealth so incoming teams will miss us/our camp.
  4. If convenient and we detect no threats, go to the nearest body of water and gather as much chakra is available to be distributed before resting.
    1. Distribute chakra to try and give us the best chance to fight off anything that shows up (need specifics here) - mostly to Inoue/Keiko/Hazou?
  5. Identify somewhere fairly well hidden/secure to camp, e.g. high up in trees, underground, overhang in a riverbed. Conceal as well as possible.
    1. If in a situation where excavating might help, attempt to summon Pandaa, both to check if he got out in time and to ask him to help(?). Otherwise, Keiko should save her chakra.
  6. When the party is on their feet again, follow the pre-pursuit plan with the following modifications:
    1. No Swamp of Death, due to Mari's instructions and our current sorry state
    2. Modify the Hugs for Everyone debrief plan - specify we are showing Kagome the shortlist, need to decide what to do with Noburi, do we change how we approach Akane given what just happened, how to phrase things with Kei, pick apart/add to @Kiba's failure analysis for the whole-team postmortem.
Contingencies
  1. Stop well before everyone collapses from carrying each other, so we still have some chance of fighting off chakra monsters
  2. Once rested/not in a desperate situation, continue with contingencies from the original plan (can be added to/modified?)
 
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We don't know that. Hazou certainly doesn't know that. All we know is that this random Chunin claims that Hidden Swamp got wrecked.

pleasedontbedeadpleasedontbedead
Nah, hidden swamp can still be wrecked, we just have get MedNin up to 50 as well so we can swap in lifelike replicas and kidnap the actual members of Hidden Swamp.
 
For anyone really liking probabilities and other weird voodoo, comparing instances Stealth 9/ TacMov 15, Stealth 12/ TacMov 15, Stealh 15/ TacMov 15, and Stealth 9/ TacMov 18 might be really fruitful for this discussion.
These numbers (again using this site) give the rolls from the Leaf and Hot Springs teams a good wide margin of somewhere between 10 and 15 dice before malus and assumes combat requires them to beat us at both a stealth vs awareness and a tacmov vs tacmov roll.

Stealth 9/ TacMov 15
Chance of detection: 65.5-98.5%
Chance of getting caught: 4-50%
Chance of combat: 2.5-49.5%

Stealth 12/TacMov 15
Chance of detection: 23-84.5%
Chance of getting caught: 4-50%
Chance of combat: 1- 42.5%

Stealth 15/TacMov 15
Chance of detection: 4-50%
Chance of getting caught: 4-50%
Chance of combat: 0.1-25%

Stealth 9/TacMov 18
Chance of detection: 65.5-98.5%
Chance of getting caught: 0.5 - 18%
Chance of combat: 0.3 - 17.5%

Stealth 12/TacMov 18
Chance of detection: 23-84.5%
Chance of getting caught: 0.5 - 18%
Chance of combat: 0.1 - 15%

Stealth 15/TacMov 18
Chance of detection: 4-50%
Chance of getting caught: 0.5 - 18%
Chance of combat: 0.02 - 9%

Stealth 18/TacMov 18
Chance of detection: 0.5 - 18%
Chance of getting caught: 0.5 - 18%
Chance of combat: 0.0025 - 3.24%
 
Guys, you're going about this the wrong way. Clearly we need to go back a few months more and make the suicide mission be a fake :V
 
+1 insightful. Also, learning those things is really hard, which is why most ninja don't spend the time. For village ninja it's usually more survivable to learn how to punch harder, stealth better, or blow people up more instead of grinding the ability to transform and then spending all the time to master each individual form. This might or might not apply to you, since you're operating under different constraints.


As an aside, I often feel like we keep all the cool toys away from you guys. The problem is that every time you come up with something super shiny we have to ask ourselves "ninja have been around for centuries. Why did no one think of this?" Whatever answer we come up with has to apply to you as well.

@eaglejarl, @Velorien: I feel like this is an unreasonable test given the structure of this world.

It's a death world, there's not nearly so many people around to think up and optimize ideas as in our world. Most of the people who are around are mainly concerned with not dying in immediate future, social networks are weak, cities are smaller than what we would consider large towns. Even fewer are ninja, with access to the chakra and jutsu needed to think up the innovations needed. Thinking up clever ideas is hard and often takes experimentation and testing. A mentality sorely lacking the primarily feudal world you've laid out for us, with the possible exception of Orochimaru1​.

But @HyperCatnip and others have pointed out how good ideas are rare, testing is rare, and bad luck can kill notions in the crib. Which is an important set of things to point out, but I think there's a bigger point that you might be missing.

We don't care about whether someone else has had the idea, just whether the idea existing or not would have a noticeable effect on the world. So to that end I think there's a bit of a checklist that works as a better test.
  • How simple is the idea?
    • Assuming someone has the prerequisites and wants the goals, how likely are they to think up the idea on their own?
    • Something like henge-ing into cloth to slow down would be very simple, but something like building a lattice structure out of 5 seal barriers much less so.
  • How available are the prereqs?
    • What is the chance that someone will have what the idea needs in order to be tested?
    • Something that requires just one of the basic 3 would be highly available (to ninja), but something that requires a high level of sealing and dangerous research would be less available.
  • How likely are the goals?
    • What is the chance that someone will want the goal the idea works towards?
    • Some things, like quickly stopping a long fall are pretty rare since few people are going to be falling long distances in this sort of world, but better single-person defenses or longer distance offensive techniques are incredibly common needs.
If these are all likely then many people have probably thought of the idea. If any of these are unlikely, then few (if any) people have thought of the idea. Then you need to figure out whether the idea has propagated.
  • How hard is the idea to test? Does it require many resources?
  • How likely is it to propagate? Is it more helpful kept secret or made widely available?
  • Are there better solutions available for most people?
  • Does the landscape change wildly if only a few people have access to the idea? or only a little?
With the above you can figure out how the notion shifts the large scale landscape. There's also a few other social differences that make your test unreasonable.


This world doesn't have a gentleman's academia like the royal society, much less the professional academia we have now. There's no phone network, and I don't think we've really seen international mail networks. Information flow across large distances seems mostly diplomatic or military. These informational and social structures are incredibly important to the sort of innovation that would merit using a test of "Why hasn't someone else done this yet?" as a first pass.

There's also a strong culture of secrecy. A really good idea might be stuck with a small group of people for fear that releasing it would nix whatever comparative advantage it provides. A lot of good ideas would be squashed by that alone, providing a boost to just a few people rather than a huge change in the status quo. It also makes it harder for someone to build on the work of others.

Not to mention that for sealing in particular, the entire field of engineering is designed to require each individual to do much of the bootstrap work themselves. It's not like fields of engineering where you can literally build on top of the work of others. You need to spend time replicating everything you need, even if you have the work of others to look at. For most people in a village getting to a base level of skill and churning out common seal to sell would be a fast path to relative safety, like most other professions.

You might get the rare privileged seal-crafter with the time, money, and intelligence to do cool research, but it would be hard to pass on to others and kept secret anyway.

The current state of human society is profoundly weird. We've got a level of excess resources, societal trust, and information sharing that is profoundly anomalous. For most of human history technology moved very slowly for a slew of reasons. If MfD is similar, there's no good reason to expect the entire space of low hanging fruit to be searched.


1: I really hope you have an explanation for why Orochimaru felt that striking out on his own was better than accepting both the experimental restrictions and support that would come with good standing as a Konoha nin. There's pros and cons, but that support network seems incredibly useful for most of Orochimaru's canon goals.
 
1: I really hope you have an explanation for why Orochimaru felt that striking out on his own was better than accepting both the experimental restrictions and support that would come with good standing as a Konoha nin. There's pros and cons, but that support network seems incredibly useful for most of Orochimaru's canon goals.
I reiterate my hypothetheory that it's to do with biju-powered AI, and he's struck out alone to try and figure out how to make one faster and more friendly than the villages who are all inevitably going to make paperclippers.
 
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Supposing that studying forms of animals and chakra beasts are the limiting factors to really taking advantage of Henge 20, I think it would be more prudent to just get Henge 15 for Hazou then and have him use Iron nerve to modify his human body parts as needed. We'd use Iron nerve to continually extract as much out of the strange human forms as possible to make up for not getting to 20.

I'm thinking he could also probably use some of the records from the various Henges he uses outside of Henge as well. Noburi and the 2 Jounin would probably speed this up as well.

That would allow Hazou to try some useful body-hacks and body-modding. I'm thinking Hazou might be the only one capable of the following since he might be able to deal with the sensory data coming through with the extra additions.

-Extra eyes and 360 vision
-Henge-dilated pupils to take in more light. Performed outside of Henge?
-Larger ears. Listens better outisde of Henge?
-Extra arms
-Larger lungs? Temporarily get more stamina?
-Longer legs
-Breathing efficiently for every movement? More stamina?

Thoughts?
 
Honestly, I think we should really explore working under simple mass and momentum modifications.

Lighter bodies sculpted to allow us to move quickly, heavier ones for landing a punch in the middle of a fight, etc..
 
Honestly, I think we should really explore working under simple mass and momentum modifications.

Lighter bodies sculpted to allow us to move quickly, heavier ones for landing a punch in the middle of a fight, etc..
If we got Technique Hacking so we could do that seallessly it'd be pretty cool.

e: We'd also need to reduce the chakra cost to maybe half of what is now for it to be used as rapidly in such a manner as combat would require. But, uh, we can worry about that when we have TH.
 
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It'd be nice if we could TH additional, personalized efficiency into our techniques so that they cost less chakra for us to use. Maybe something like 20% less, but dunno how balanced that would be -- though we would have to spend time doing that for every technique.
 
So my thoughts on the situation.

We need to bunker down in a natural cave or a quickly dug foxhole for us to bed down in. After that we should have a good long fireside chat about the situation at large and the interpersonal relationships within the group. This needs to be addressed now while the kunai is still hot and people can't just walk away easily. We will keep it at a whisper, of course as we do our best to rest up, but things need to be talked about and feelings that have evolved within the group sense our last fireside chat on the beach.
 
We should do the same for the Mist hunter-nin so that we're not killing them off with our Swamp repli-nin.
Ideally, the sequence would be:
  1. Build Hidden Heaven, take over the world, achieve Good End in this timeline.
  2. Make a list of everyone specific that the team wants to save in chronological order.
  3. Go back to the most recent entry and save them at the last minute (so that they share all of the memories we have of interacting with them.
  4. Institute Good End in the new timeline.
  5. Repeat until we have achieved Good Beginning.
 
good long fireside chat
<Kagome voice>
Are you crazy?? You wanna light us up so every stinking ninja stinker in a hundred miles can see us and smell the smoke?! Are you suicidal, you stupid stinker???
</Kagome>

More substantively, I think if we try to do any interpersonal stuff before everyone is rested and not scared shitless (at least, any stuff besides being very very nice & supportive), it could go belly-up very quickly.
 
<Kagome voice>
Are you crazy?? You wanna light us up so every stinking ninja stinker in a hundred miles can see us and smell the smoke?! Are you suicidal, you stupid stinker???
</Kagome>

More substantively, I think if we try to do any interpersonal stuff before everyone is rested and not scared shitless (at least, any stuff besides being very very nice & supportive), it could go belly-up very quickly.
Rested yes, but it can't wait more than one night. If not today, then after we've rested.
 
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