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My understanding is that as we currently are, we are taking huge chances while crossing borders and 12 dice to Stealth is not going to fix that. Remember that we will be crossing borders a lot in the future and the amount of people looking for us will only climb as time goes on.

Is crossing borders the way we have been, running at ninja speeds, really the best way to go about it? It's fast, but it's inherently risky because any patrol we run across knows we're up to no good instantly.

What's the up/down on taking civilian roads at civilian speeds with a civilian caravan? I know security at actual Hidden Villages is tight, but I'm unclear what national borders are like. Does everyone get checked? Random checks? No checks? Is it done by civilian guards or ninja?

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but the discussion wasn't in any of the updates. Mari ought to be able to tell us how Mist does it at the least.
 
We can't do training until we get settled down, and we can't do that until we cross borders (Fire to Iron). I feel like we'll be in Iron/the area for a while for training & healing, and then a visit to Uzu, and then (maybe) trying to find a merchant caravan to "help".
Oh man, Uzu.

*vibrates in excitement*

Other notes: Until we get Hiding in the Mist, we can do the Poor Man's Hiding in the Mist with a bucket/barrel of water and a red-hot chunk of whatever. This will allow Nobby to practice sensing/draining through mist, etc. before we get access to it. I think this idea is credit to @Twofold? Not sure though. Either way, we should see about capturing some animals for Nobby drain. How many squirrels/birds to a CP? :D
Please take another look at the rolls that got us almost caught:




Yes, Hot Springs was chasing us because we messed up, but they also got huge penalties thanks to delay and our prep work. Note how the Leaf patrol, that had no idea we were coming, has comparable dice in both occasions.

My understanding is that as we currently are, we are taking huge chances while crossing borders and 12 dice to Stealth is not going to fix that. Remember that we will be crossing borders a lot in the future and the amount of people looking for us will only climb as time goes on.

I'm under the impression that we were making more noise because we were actively running from another group and that the Leaf patrol may not have had the chance to see us before we were gone if we weren't actively avoiding another group.
 
Is crossing borders the way we have been, running at ninja speeds, really the best way to go about it? It's fast, but it's inherently risky because any patrol we run across knows we're up to no good instantly.

What's the up/down on taking civilian roads at civilian speeds with a civilian caravan? I know security at actual Hidden Villages is tight, but I'm unclear what national borders are like. Does everyone get checked? Random checks? No checks? Is it done by civilian guards or ninja?

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but the discussion wasn't in any of the updates. Mari ought to be able to tell us how Mist does it at the least.
@Twofold @Briefvoice quoted me but it's a response to you.
 
Is crossing borders the way we have been, running at ninja speeds, really the best way to go about it? It's fast, but it's inherently risky because any patrol we run across knows we're up to no good instantly.

What's the up/down on taking civilian roads at civilian speeds with a civilian caravan? I know security at actual Hidden Villages is tight, but I'm unclear what national borders are like. Does everyone get checked? Random checks? No checks? Is it done by civilian guards or ninja?

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but the discussion wasn't in any of the updates. Mari ought to be able to tell us how Mist does it at the least.

Last time we talked about this was when we were planning our route to Tea.

The first problem with civilian travel is that it is super slow. Trips that take us days turn in to months and this leads to other cans of worms.

Besides wasting a lot of time, more time spent on the road means more chances of a ninja patrol coming to take a look see. My gut feeling is that if we were to cross through Fire, we would get checked out by their patrols a bunch of times before making it to the other side. Hiding contraband would be a problem, mostly because we can't put seals inside seals. Meaning a proper inspection (possibly with Byakugan or other sensory jutsu) would out us in a short manner. My initial thought to counter this was to form up an acting troupe with bunch of weird knick-knacks and props to cover up the actual sealwork.

I'm not sure if every little country has border check points, but since we are in a death world the caravans will most likely stick to well worn paths. Meaning most major routes will have a check point or two.

None of that is really confirmed by Mari, so if you feel like setting up a nice set of questions for the QMs please do.


The most interesting thing about traveling as civilians would be joining a bigger caravan and interacting with them. Not to mention all the little pieces of civilization we would get to see on the road. This would make it pretty hard to train or do research properly though.
 
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For anyone really liking probabilities and other weird voodoo, comparing instances Stealth 9/ TacMov 15, Stealth 12/ TacMov 15, Stealh 15/ TacMov 15, and Stealth 9/ TacMov 18 might be really fruitful for this discussion.
Comparing them to what? Each other?
This site says:
12 beats 9 ~87% of the time
15 > 9 ~98%
18 > 9 ~99.9%
15 > 12 ~84%
18 > 12 ~97%
18 > 15 ~82%

Is that what you mean or..?
 
Last time we talked about this was when we were planning our route to Tea.

The first problem with civilian travel is that it is super slow. Trips that take us days turn in to months and this leads to other cans of worms.

Besides wasting a lot of time, more time spent on the road means more chances of a ninja patrol coming to take a look see. My gut feeling is that if we were to cross through Fire, we would get checked out by their patrols a bunch of times before making it to the other side. Hiding contraband would be a problem, mostly because we can't put seals inside seals. Meaning a proper inspection (possibly with Byakugan or other sensory jutsu) would out us in a short manner. My initial thought to counter this was to form up an acting troupe with bunch of weird knick-knacks and props to cover up the actual sealwork.

I'm not sure if every little country has border check points, but since we are in a death world the caravans will most likely stick to well worn paths. Meaning most major routes will have a check point or two.

None of that is really confirmed by Mari, so if you feel like setting up a nice set of questions for the QMs please do.


The most interesting thing about traveling as civilians would be joining a bigger caravan and interacting with them. Not to mention all the little pieces of civilization we would get to see on the road. This would make it pretty hard to train or do research properly though.
Speaking of research, did we ever get numbers on how much of research we can do without experimenting? That is to say, theorycrafting for our seals without actually infusing anything? 10%? 20%?
 
About to rename a wiki entry "PleaseCategorizeTheseThings" to Justu. Or Should it be Justus? Inquiring mind wants to know.

Japanese doesn't seem to distinguish between singular and plural -- 'ninja' and 'jutsu' are both used for one of each or a group of each. Note that it's 'jutsu', not 'justu'. Still, 'Techniques' is probably better, as you did.

@eaglejarl, @Velorien, do we know an underlying reason that you have to have seen the type of animal that you're trying to henge into? If Mari genjutsus the kids so they think they see a chakra beast that she encountered some time in the past, and they don't notice it's not real, is their belief enough? What if she makes something up?
I'll need to talk to @Velorien when he gets back before I can answer these. Please put them in the 'questions to be answered' doc.

Zeppelins are not stealthy.

Note that zeppelins are not at all stealthy when taking off. Once you get really high you're probably fine, but you're going to be visible from a long way off as you're ascending. Same is true for hot-air balloons, although to a slightly smaller degree.

I expect we'll be using seals to generate a modified version of EM, or of some sustained fire-style jutsu, rather than having Akane do it personally. Honestly I don't think she should level it up any further.
Some facts that might be relevant about Elemental Mastery, since you reminded me of it:
  • It affects a spherical area centered on the caster
  • You only get to choose 'hotter' or 'colder', not how far to go. It always changes the temperature by the maximum you are capable of. Changing the temperature by 150C is not terribly safe.
Note that these are not new facts, they are just here as reminders.


I think you're forgetting that we don't automatically know how to use any of those bodies. We have to learn how to move and fly as all of those creatures from scratch ourselves.

+1 insightful. Also, learning those things is really hard, which is why most ninja don't spend the time. For village ninja it's usually more survivable to learn how to punch harder, stealth better, or blow people up more instead of grinding the ability to transform and then spending all the time to master each individual form. This might or might not apply to you, since you're operating under different constraints.


As an aside, I often feel like we keep all the cool toys away from you guys. The problem is that every time you come up with something super shiny we have to ask ourselves "ninja have been around for centuries. Why did no one think of this?" Whatever answer we come up with has to apply to you as well.

That's good to know. Is that how you are going to do it in the future too?
I haven't really thought about it, sorry.

Mechanically Akane made an Intelligence versus Resolve roll to see if she would be dumb enough to keep going. So I guess leveling her Intelligence would improve her common sense.
I probably shouldn't have done it that way, tbh. The rules stated at the beginning of the quest were that stats are pointless XP sinks only there as a gating factor to make useful things more expensive. I find myself frustrated with those rules, but I shouldn't just arbitrarily change them. I had reasons for doing the "Akane runs herself into the ground" scene (among other things, it was absolutely in her character), and this was the best way I could think of to resolve it mechanically. Still, I'll try to avoid this in the future, at least until @Velorien and I have discussed it more.

tl;dr Don't spend a bunch of points on attributes just yet.
 
@eaglejarl can you talk about what civilian travel is like, especially through national borders? How intense are the inspections we could expect, at least based on how our own nation did it?
 
Is that what you mean or..?

I meant a simulated border crossing situation. That was the thing we were talking about, I even quoted the rolls from the update.

What we are interested about is how safe it is to cross borders with each of the different skill distributions. Especially if we need to repeat the feat a bunch of times.

Speaking of research, did we ever get numbers on how much of research we can do without experimenting? That is to say, theorycrafting for our seals without actually infusing anything? 10%? 20%?

I'm pretty sure we can't do any research without doing the research roll and risking Bad Things. That is pretty much the point of the whole research mechanic.

I find myself frustrated with those rules, but I shouldn't just arbitrarily change them.

In case you want player feedback, using the Attributes especially for flavor rolls or as guidelines to different character details (like muscularity or something) or how people perceive the character initially might not be the worst thing in the world.

I very much doubt things like that would make us spend any more points on attributes.
 
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  • It affects a spherical area centered on the caster
  • You only get to choose 'hotter' or 'colder', not how far to go. It always changes the temperature by the maximum you are capable of. Changing the temperature by 150C is not terribly safe.
These are exactly why we need a seal that produces a modified version. Though I am confused why the second bullet would be the case when her character sheet gives the technique cost as 3 CP per-5*C increment? Wouldn't the cost just always be 3*level?
 
It'd be nice to have attributes matter more than expsinks, though. Encourages people not to dump them to the bare minimum.
 
I think it's nice to use attributes to help decide roleplaying situations and when no other other attribute seems to apply.

It's not so much that they should be worth buying on their own, but that it gives a second-order effect to what skills you focus on. If we're bumping Hazou's Intelligence up so that he's better at sealing, that also means he's better in situations where raw intelligence applies.
 
+1 insightful. Also, learning those things is really hard, which is why most ninja don't spend the time. For village ninja it's usually more survivable to learn how to punch harder, stealth better, or blow people up more instead of grinding the ability to transform and then spending all the time to master each individual form. This might or might not apply to you, since you're operating under different constraints.
I think a clarification might be needed.

Won't Hazou have much easier time learning to fly/swim/dig/be an eagle than average ninja because of Iron Nerve?
 
I think a clarification might be needed.

Won't Hazou have much easier time learning to fly/swim/dig/be an eagle than average ninja because of Iron Nerve?
What about the rest of the team? Is Hazou just supposed to leave them and go missing-missing-missing-nin now?

What about the Kurosawa clan? Surely they would have figured this out by now.
 
What about the Kurosawa clan? Surely they would have figured this out by now.

How many ninja do you think are capable of learning Transformation 20? I mean, divorcing it from xp (which is a game mechanic), I imagine that most ninja eventually run into hard caps on their skills where they just aren't talented enough to progress any further. Otherwise everyone would study hard and be a jounin if they survived long enough.
 
Brainstorming post. Let's consider effects of various skills leveled to 50 and see if we want to go there long-term.
  • Taijutsu - be unstoppable in close combat. Neat, but not a game changer (needs high TacMove and Awareness to be effective)
  • Weapons - Be unstoppable at ranged attacks. Better than Taijutsu but needs Awareness and TacMove, again.
  • Deception - start a cult! Become a world-grade conman! Become an evil vizier of a daimyo! All chakra monsters and enemies that refuse to communcate no-sell this skill.
  • Diplomacy - Be a diplomancer! Befriend Hokage! Befriend Jiraya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru all at once! (Be eaten by chakra voles, same issue as Deception)
  • Sealing - Can do everything given time. (I suspect that paper and ink are rather optional on Sealing level 50)
  • Technique Hacking - Same as sealing, but less resource-dependant and more reliant on personal chakra reserves.
  • Awareness - Never be caught off-guard. Doesn't help without some ability to deal with opponents, though.
  • Tactical Movement - Never be caught, period. Unless they catch you while you sleep.
  • Stealth - Never be noticed. Unless they have byakugan, or you step on a trap.
  • Mechanical Aptitude - One Man Industrial Revolution. Still can be killed by a genin, though.
  • Medicine - Immortality, here we come! Be the Bonesaw you want to be! Body horror for everyone!
  • Medical Ninjutsu - See above, but in combat!
  • Hunting - no idea...
  • Transformation - Freeform shapeshifting, combat-useable forms.
  • Clone - pretty holograms.
  • Substitution - substitute instantly, up to 500m range, teleportation-like.
Thoughts?
 
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Would they? They were pretty big on being frontline fighters, IIRC
"'By darkness unmoved," Inoue quoted. "I never quite understood it."

"It means we hold the line," Hazou said. "My family have been ninja of the Mist since the village was founded. Before that, we were hilltop daimyo for as far back as our family records go. We have always been warriors, and we have always believed that it is our duty to stand at the edge of civilization's light and keep out the darkness that threatens it. We didn't want that taken away from us when we joined Mist. If we made it known that we could produce dozens of seals an hour, the logical thing for the village to do would have been to keep us locked up and guarded, constantly cranking out seals for the use of other people. We would have been taken off the line."
Kinda. They don't want to be locked up in the back, which is why they don't talk about their Sealing powers.

But Henge, in the way everyone's been talking about, can easily be used for offensive purposes. They can easily spy for obvious reasons, but also send supplies, information, carpet bombing (send birds with explosive kunai: drop, boom), assassinate/ambush (ninjas may ignore a bunch of mice up due to lack of relevance until they turn into ninjas)... It's not literal front-fighting in the sense of "let's punch them to death, yeah!" but it's close.

How many ninja do you think are capable of learning Transformation 20? I mean, divorcing it from xp (which is a game mechanic), I imagine that most ninja eventually run into hard caps on their skills where they just aren't talented enough to progress any further. Otherwise everyone would study hard and be a jounin if they survived long enough.
I'd imagine any Jonin worthy of the rank would be capable, though for obvious reasons most wouldn't bother. I base this on the observation that Inoue-sensei is a Jonin with absurd Genjutsu skills and her own genjutsu and on Shikigami's Water clones that can slaughter scores of Chunin...Yeah.

If people could create and master genjutsu or their own style of ninjutsu then Henge should not be more difficult; if anything, it'll be less.
 
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Brainstorming post. Let's consider effects of various skills leveled to 50 and see if we want to go there long-term.
  • Taijutsu - be unstoppable in close combat. Neat, but not a game changer (needs high TacMove and Awareness to be effective)
  • Weapons - Be unstoppable at ranged attacks. Better than Taijutsu but needs Awareness and TacMove, again.
  • Deception - start a cult! Become a world-grade conman! Become an evil vizier of a daimyo! All chakra monsters and enemies that refuse to communcate no-sell this skill.
  • Diplomacy - Be a diplomancer! Befriend Hokage! Befriend Jiraya, Tsunade, and Orochimaru all at once! (Be eaten by chakra voles, same issue as Deception)
  • Sealing - Can do everything given time. (I suspect that paper and ink are rather optional on Sealing level 50)
  • Technique Hacking - Same as sealing, but less resource-dependant and more reliant on personal chakra reserves.
  • Awareness - Newer be caught off-guard. Doesn't help without some ability to deal with opponents, though.
  • Tactical Movement - Never be caught, period. Unless they catch you while you sleep.
  • Stealth - Never be noticed. Unless they have byakugan, or you step on a trap.
  • Mechanical Aptitude - One Man Industrial Revolution. Still can be killed by a genin, though.
  • Medicine - Immortality, here we come! Be the Bonesaw you want to be! Body horror for everyone!
  • Medical Ninjutsu - See above, but in combat!
  • Hunting - no idea...
  • Transformation - Freeform shapeshifting, combat-useable forms.
  • Clone - pretty holograms.
  • Substitution - substitute instantly, up to 500m range, teleportation-like.
Thoughts?
Why would we want to level any single skill to 50?
 
[] Proto-Plan: Breathe, Drink, Flee

Before actual feedback, why did you change your plan inside the quote but not the original post? That seems kinda weird to me. (...and makes quoting the plan a pain.)


Noburi finishes field-treating Akane, Inoue carries her, get moving again.

Inoue is the least tired of us, but Akane is a big girl. Having two people carry her might be for the best. Also swapping the people carrying her periodically would also make us last longer.

Identify somewhere fairly well hidden/secure to camp. Fortify as well as possible with our currently limited resources.

I don't think we can make fortifications that would make a difference in our sorry state. We would be better off putting our efforts towards making the preliminary camp spot as hard to find as possible. Meaning, no trap fields and a hole in the ground will do until everyone is at least somewhat ambulatory.

Follow the pre-pursuit plan with the following modifications:

Wait, did hugs actually win that vote? Curses.

Anyway, you should link every post you make a reference to. Making QMs (or the voters for that matter) search for them is a bad idea.

Disguise-henges if chakra permits.

Chances of us having enough chakra for this? Zero. Extra chakra goes towards keeping the badly injured (Hazou, Noburi) moving.

Besides, if anyone gets close enough to take a look at our faces, we are already utterly buggered.

Genin ride/get carried by jounin to a campable spot if necessary.

If it gets that bad, we might be better off just staking a camp and hoping that the genin recover enough in 4 hours or something. Otherwise Inoue and Kagome (who is not a jounin btw) will also keel over...which would be really bad. Chakra monsters are still a thing, and we can't risk explosives or waste chakra on combat jutsu.
 
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