TH apprenticeship?
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rational rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Hmm, maybe... The primary issue with TH is yet more further divergent XP but if we could get it for free (or get bonus xp to spend after buying the stunt) then it wouldn't be as much of a problem. Really want to stick around for 3 months though?
We'll be healing for 2 months. Really the biggest problem is how poorly it plays with our unstagnation timelines.
- Location
- Pacific standard
Hey all, the discord just put together some weird things about the earth shaping jutsu. Namely, some of its effects are based around Effect (... how hard Hazō tries when he casts the jutsu, I guess?), while others are based entirely on him having a high enough level, which is purely skill.
Filtering material is one that only needs skill, and mentions the cloud of dust coming out of the rock. Separating an object required the jutsu be cast at Effect 2
So what happens if we filter a material after casting it at Effect 1? We explicitly can still do this, but none of the impurities can come out! What happens?
I think sealing substrate might happen. I think this is what actually forces the interior of the sample to align and stay aligned
Filtering material is one that only needs skill, and mentions the cloud of dust coming out of the rock. Separating an object required the jutsu be cast at Effect 2
When cast at Effect 2+ (minimum required skill level: 10) you can 'cut off' parts of the material or, conversely, render the material 'sticky' in a way that allows you to add extra material as long as it fits within your total volume limit.
At level 50 you may filter the material, choosing one component to retain and ejecting all others. This only isolates component minerals, but does not change their crystal structures.
...
Ejected materials come out in the form of dust with all types mixed together. The retained material must end up as a single object. Using this ability gives you an impression of immense potential. You can feel the ninjutsu pushing you to advance your skill and learn its powerful still-hidden capabilities.
...
Ejected materials come out in the form of dust with all types mixed together. The retained material must end up as a single object. Using this ability gives you an impression of immense potential. You can feel the ninjutsu pushing you to advance your skill and learn its powerful still-hidden capabilities.
I think sealing substrate might happen. I think this is what actually forces the interior of the sample to align and stay aligned
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
Yeah, the proposed direction I want to take would be distinct from apprenticeship in what I believe to be the most crucial ways. Being an apprentice puts us under his power, obligates us to follow his commands, our work is for his gain, etc. No matter what benefits we gain from that, the costs of becoming Orochimaru's subordinate are vast and varied in their unpleasantness.
Collaboration, however, I think is more doable. It would be hard to get Orochimaru to take us seriously as a peer, but we don't have to put ourselves under his power and authority to mutually agree to share notes and research. We send no signals, to Orochimaru or otherwise, that we're now willing to follow his orders, that we have any personal loyalty to him, or even that our ideals align with his. It's a collaboration borne out of respect for each other's skills and nothing else.
Concerns still remain, it wouldn't be Orochimaru otherwise, but they mostly boil down to "do we trust Orochimaru to collaborate honestly and not wind up vivisecting you?", but now that he's taken Ren and made a promise to Tsunade I think we're mostly in the clear there.
To help visualize what I mean, I would want our collaborations to not take place in the Basement, within Orochimaru's world and under his control. I'd rather have us collaborate at neutral locations, perhaps exchanging annotated research notes through mail much of the time, and generally keep a professional distance to keep our boundaries clear: we are peers, not subordinates. We do not answer to him, we will not compromise ourselves for him, and we can afford to withdraw from this agreement if we have to. Well, assuming he doesn't just Sannin over the place, but he could do that no matter what we do, and if anything I wager a professional relationship built on mutual respect for each other's capabilities would be one of the best things we could do to keep that from happening.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
You should definitely tell him that. To his face, in small words.
Hmmm...pottery or music appreciation courses? So many choices!
Hazo strip things down to first principle.
Maybe it's something he could introduce to the world.
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boo600
Ego sum egredietur tempestas.
- Location
- Texas
- Pronouns
- He/Him/Hungry
Ah. So that's what truly killed Kakuzu - faulty intel, via assumptions. Truly the most subtle of killers.
Hello, canon Kakuzu.
What an excellent way of putting it. Downright poetic, really.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
*squints*
Collaboration is possible and probably even necessary for some of what we want to do. We have collaborated before. We will likely collaborate again.
We also have a historic tendency to fold like a wet napkin under the pressure of his Jonin aura. We can make whatever plans and commitments we want, all of that goes out the window as soon as Oro engages in whatever degree of social combat he feels is necessary to get everything he wants.
Talking with Orochimaru amicably is as dangerous a mission as exploring his basement, or a seal failure, or a hypothetical cave of moderate-to-major peril, and should be treated as such. Any situation that potentially removes the word 'amicable' from that previous description is flat out an S class mission.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We have no problem with y'all breaking the setting. Indeed, it's fun and exciting when you do. You simply need to do it in ways that Hazō choose reasonably think of (i.e. no meta- or modern information) and that would plausibly not have been thought of already by someone else (eg, not "run fast, Substitute with knife, knife go VERY fast, city go boom").
Note that you're assuming there's free XP to be had. I'm not commenting on whether there is or isn't, simply pointing this out.
It's probably worth adding the words "at least three" there, as I can think of others and I feel like your current phrasing could easily lead to tunnel vision.
Tsunade made no official statement to Hazō before Naruto was elected.
Hazō would likely assume that a severing field is any static defense that cuts things which pass through it, such as Kagome's Force Walls. Hazō has in fact seen a similar defense of Orochimaru's:
Hazō would probably do 3-5 prep days the first time he tried it with the Severe, even though he thinks it would probably be fine.
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We just have to convince Oro he will be a better aspirant to immortality if he has more equals around to help him, and that the only way to do this is to self-modify into a person who respects other people and their agency. Hazou is insane, and even so the only reason he considers working with Oro is because he has some kind of safety backup from Tsunade. Imagine how many more Hazou-tier trades he could have pulled off if everyone didn't expect to be vivisected after telling Oro they know something he would be interested in.
Simple really.
Simple really.
Echoing what @Inferno Vulpix and @redzonejoe said:
My understanding of apprenticeship in the MFD world is that it implies full subordination and subservience. We would become an extension of Orochimaru, forwarding his objectives and plans and not our own (except to whatever degree those align). Note how Kabuto calls him master, comes and goes at his beck and call, etc. This is incredibly different from some kind of tutoring arrangement like we had with Asuma for clan head training.
I'd expect becoming Orochimaru's apprentice would require formally relinquishing our clan head position (even if there isn't a conflict of interest issue, we wouldn't have time for both responsibilities) as well as shattering a number of our personal relationships (Kagome, Kei, Mari) who would find it hard to ever trust us, and vaporising all of our social clout in Leaf. I don't know if Hazou even has the capability to do it; as currently characterised he's too squeamish/sensible to actually carry out the various vivisections and atrocities that Oro would require him to do: he barely kept it together for Noda's vivisection and she was a willing volunteer.
Apprenticeship really feels like a non-starter to me.
My understanding of apprenticeship in the MFD world is that it implies full subordination and subservience. We would become an extension of Orochimaru, forwarding his objectives and plans and not our own (except to whatever degree those align). Note how Kabuto calls him master, comes and goes at his beck and call, etc. This is incredibly different from some kind of tutoring arrangement like we had with Asuma for clan head training.
I'd expect becoming Orochimaru's apprentice would require formally relinquishing our clan head position (even if there isn't a conflict of interest issue, we wouldn't have time for both responsibilities) as well as shattering a number of our personal relationships (Kagome, Kei, Mari) who would find it hard to ever trust us, and vaporising all of our social clout in Leaf. I don't know if Hazou even has the capability to do it; as currently characterised he's too squeamish/sensible to actually carry out the various vivisections and atrocities that Oro would require him to do: he barely kept it together for Noda's vivisection and she was a willing volunteer.
Apprenticeship really feels like a non-starter to me.
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- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
To be fair, I think we've raised our Resolve by 20 since we've last felt Orochimaru's Aura? We seem to endure Tsunade's Aura just fine, lately, at least.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I don't think this is the case. Itachi used the phrase "assistant" and not "appprentice" for a reason.
@eaglejarl , @Velorien , @Paperclipped
Can we get cultural info regarding student/sensei, Master/Apprentice dynamics with regard to the Elemental Nations (and Leaf, specifically)?
Hazou didn't have that dynamic with Harumitsu, Kagome didn't have that dynamic with Hazou, and Tsunade (for all her faults) wasn't that way with Noburi during his trial apprenticeship.
FWIW I thought there was a distinction between student/sensei and apprentice/master. A jounin night have many genin students over their career (student/sensei). They'd teach them but not necessarily give them their secret techniques, and their relationship is mostly professional. In fact they're even assigned by the tower!
Apprentice/sensei is more like choosing a heir or godchild. Tsunade/shizune, Oro/Kabuto, maybe Jiraiya/Naruto. The master (often) trusts them with their secrets and the relationship is more like parent/child. I wouldn't expect most ninja to have a bunch of different apprentices one after another.
All of this is might just exist in my mind though, so I'm looking forward to the QM ruling on what's actually the case!
A. Directional Explosives can contain their explosions to a cone effectively the size of a one meter blade. Used in a rifle, the blade of force could fit snugly in a barrel to propel a meter long metal bolt or a smaller round pushed by pressurized air. The bolt would come out pushed by explosive strong enough to cut through a meter of wood or "kill a person very, very thoroughly." Thumbnail sized seals preferred. Activate with ARS to simplify rifle design.
B. Barrels contain the force and help aim. Earthshaping opens the path to fast iteration on barrel design and strong materials. Weak but heat resistant barrel materials protected by 5 Seal Barrier can be used to fire on stationary targets. Silencing seals may be placed along the barrel.
C. Telescopes help aim at long range. More ninjutsu or seals can be added to enhance aim. Laser sights. Night vision. Wind speed calculation. Long range night vision widens options to attack while undetected.
D. Stock. DE powered rifles will have little backward recoil or forward recoil if the explosive cone clips the sides of the barrel.
E. If Ranged Weapon specialists are able to group attacks on a stationary 100 yard target to within one inch, the level of ballistics knowledge required to be that consistent extends itself to higher maximum range weapons. Shooting at targets returns clear feedback, how close you were to the center, high or low, too far left or right. Clear feedback helps engineer better firearms, practice better aim. Ten inch groupings at 1000 yards miss chest sized targets less than 50 percent of the time. For more information, search shot grouping.
F. Instead of or in combination with DEs, thumbnail sized Rocket Boot seals glued to the back of or embedded in rounds can be used for propulsion. Rocket Boots have the force of DEs, imparted over slower time. RBs in separate chambers, keyed to MARS, can give multiple pushes to the same bolt or round but millisecond delays between activation make this less useful for closer targets. RBs glued off center throw off aim.
To kill priority targets, single fire rifles can be worked around. Future designs with semi automatic fire at ninja combat ranges... posted unfinished.
-Larger rounds have room for more seals. Chambers can be filled with the most powerful proximity trigger, destruction or sudden deceleration trigger offensive seals money can buy. Proximity activated macerators would release 100s of kilograms at bullet speeds, ahead of the bolt they are housed in. Bolts must be made from material strong enough to resist heat and forces they are exposed to. Must mold metal if Earthshaped materials are too weak.
G. Spin can be imparted to the bolt before firing with internal Rocket Boot seals. Saves effort of engineering rifled barrels.
B. Barrels contain the force and help aim. Earthshaping opens the path to fast iteration on barrel design and strong materials. Weak but heat resistant barrel materials protected by 5 Seal Barrier can be used to fire on stationary targets. Silencing seals may be placed along the barrel.
C. Telescopes help aim at long range. More ninjutsu or seals can be added to enhance aim. Laser sights. Night vision. Wind speed calculation. Long range night vision widens options to attack while undetected.
D. Stock. DE powered rifles will have little backward recoil or forward recoil if the explosive cone clips the sides of the barrel.
E. If Ranged Weapon specialists are able to group attacks on a stationary 100 yard target to within one inch, the level of ballistics knowledge required to be that consistent extends itself to higher maximum range weapons. Shooting at targets returns clear feedback, how close you were to the center, high or low, too far left or right. Clear feedback helps engineer better firearms, practice better aim. Ten inch groupings at 1000 yards miss chest sized targets less than 50 percent of the time. For more information, search shot grouping.
F. Instead of or in combination with DEs, thumbnail sized Rocket Boot seals glued to the back of or embedded in rounds can be used for propulsion. Rocket Boots have the force of DEs, imparted over slower time. RBs in separate chambers, keyed to MARS, can give multiple pushes to the same bolt or round but millisecond delays between activation make this less useful for closer targets. RBs glued off center throw off aim.
To kill priority targets, single fire rifles can be worked around. Future designs with semi automatic fire at ninja combat ranges... posted unfinished.
-Larger rounds have room for more seals. Chambers can be filled with the most powerful proximity trigger, destruction or sudden deceleration trigger offensive seals money can buy. Proximity activated macerators would release 100s of kilograms at bullet speeds, ahead of the bolt they are housed in. Bolts must be made from material strong enough to resist heat and forces they are exposed to. Must mold metal if Earthshaped materials are too weak.
G. Spin can be imparted to the bolt before firing with internal Rocket Boot seals. Saves effort of engineering rifled barrels.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think my personal pitch would be this:
- Specific jutsu (or seal) to help Mari complete S rank kit, e.g. "A-Rank barrier jutsu of element lightning, water, or wind that also allows for genjutsu to be used through it." (It is to Oro's benefit that Leaf has another counterweight against Akatsuki anyways.) She also wanted something that gave her mobility IIRC? Would need to be better than what she's already got, Vacuum Step, which is already pretty good.
- Biosealing seal chain similar to the Minato chain, to us or Leaf library. (Don't word it this way, just ask for an increasingly complex chain of useful bioseals. My preferred domain would be regeneration boosting seals so Hazou isn't bedridden as long and maybe we could heal some crippled ninja but am open to other suggestions. Gives us an idea of the potency of low level biosealing as well.)
- Substrate jutsu + jutsu that allows runes to be moved. (Presumably Oro will try and make these. I don't think the second will work, but if he makes either one he agrees to share em with Hazou.)
- Some recurring amount of Oro's time for Hazou to be allowed to discuss philosophy with him without Oro calling it a waste of time and doing something else. (I don't think we're getting more than like 10 minutes a week but I wouldn't mind more Oro screentime and making him swear not to aggressively brush Hazou aside even for a small amount of time weekly would be a positive and interesting direction to take for me.
I'm with Oneiros in that if we're going to have any kind of pseudo student relationship I'd prefer working combat skills over anything else, but I am also concerned he won't want to spend time on that when he needs to focus on 3D sealing.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Has Tsunade auraed you recently?
Purely ponwog, but I doubt that there is very much carryover between the "throw pointy thing" and the "shoot gun" skills. That said, Barrett was able to take me from "never fired a rifle" to "can consistently hit a torso-sized target at 600 yards and can hit a torso-sized target at 1,000 yards ~20% of the time" in a weekend. (Note: accuracy such as this is helped a lot by using a weapon precision-engineered with modern materials/techniques for the explicit purpose of being a sniper rifle, and is helped further by firing from prone with only 0-5mph wind and all the time you want.)
- Location
- Yes.
NB: Not sure how much this counts.
Why not training in the biosealing stunt?
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We don't qualify for it and don't intend to buy those skills in the next few hundred xp
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
My position on this would be that the actual physical movements are very different, but stuff like mindset or perception skills would translate over very well. I don't spend a lot of time on the mechanics of the quest (which have changed a fair number of times over the years (I'm currently rereading and am at the chunin exams(Hi early Ami!))) so what I'm suggesting might be outdated and the terminology is probably wrong, but... something about skill pyramids? Attribute requirements for skill thresholds? Basically I think 'shoot guns' as a skill should benefit from previous 'throw pointy thing' skills in that you wouldn't have to train up any new attributes, and it could perhaps slot into the pyramid without needing some other skill to prop it up. It piggybacks not in terms of actual skill level, as again the physical motions are different and need to be trained separately, but in other requirements which have already been met. Am I making sense?
We could ask for training in it when we do qualify.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Hmm, that is true. Delay it til later
- Location
- Pacific standard
Hmm my point there was more along the lines that given Jiraiya Battle-Kit level seals, I really would expect the thread to be able to break the world in a few different ways, just by having an eagle-eyed view of all of his various effects. They're an s rankers specialty, shouldn't they include/be one of his s rank tricks? Why'd he use them if not?
I feel like y'all have a massive pile of work with the jiraiya seals because you want them to be strong af, interesting, but not able to break the setting just by handing them to us. I'm really not sure that's a reasonable set of assumptions, considering the mileage the thread can get out of "this creates a flat chakra construct at a fixed point in space"
Instead of the nightmare of trying to balance all of that such that the thread can't make the high power seals completely setting breaking, we could take all the high power interactions, find one or two interesting combinations that Jiraiya either used himself or hadn't figured out yet, and then help the qms errata the rest to match the simulation: Hazō found a very valuable trick in his adopted fathers seals. He's keeping it to himself as an ace against Akatsuki/ the Dragons/ any other situation he needs to fight and already isn't leaving survivors.
He *didn't* solve entropy, pull Akane out of the afterlife, date the Mori voice and stick his tongue out at Jashin.
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I'm assuming that a lot of the work goes into balancing the seals rather than coming up with them. We could offload some of that work onto the thread, use the munckinery energy to your benefit lol. If that assumption is wrong then this suggestion doesn't really make sense.