- Location
- Yes.
[X] Tell Orochimaru about Project Necromancy, but leave off the part where the afterlife dimension drains chakra.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Pronouns
- He/Him
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Quite frankly I want to have this conversation with him alongside Naruto and Tsunade. There's at least a fig leaf here - they're the only people who really know about the Rift and runes etc. - and honestly I don't want to have this conversation with Orochimaru even remotely alone.
Our message to Orochimaru should be simple - we've cracked 3D sealing, we're working on securing the materials, and we need to speak to him. He'll come running. From there, we hand him a list, ideally optimized with Kabuto beforehand, and then...honestly I don't know what happens next.
I'm quite worried that our lack of ambition for personal immortality is going to mean Orochimaru will literally never respect us. It's the driving force behind his life and, frankly, a reasonable goal. We're shooting higher, but in another direction, and one that I doubt Orochimaru cares that much about personally.
...a very real fear that I have here is that Orochimaru has discovered a different tradition of 3D sealing and that on this basis, this conversation is going to go very differently than we originally thought it would. Pain's machine was - if I'm remembering correctly - metal. What if Orochimaru has a source of that metal? For all that the Cavern might be a good source of substrate, if you're powerful enough, you can just go around stealing chakra metal weapons or whatever.
We should find out what happened to the Snake (Snakes?) in Arachnid.
My confidence in ever successfully opposing him is now so low I think it might be unironically easier to reform him or at least do harm mitigation rather than oppose him successfully.
He seems kinda cool if you can bust him out of his shell.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Voting remains closed.
Eh, I think its reasonable to not seek immortality while being a 16 yo who barely even counts a jounin, and certainly not in direct combat. Bigger concerns at that stage - and we have been growing and fast. It would be a reasonable fear if we ever stagnated, but if anything between the amount of sheer drive Hazou has to do things, our Sealing capabilities (which just killed Kakuzu btw, + Runes) and creativity, I get the impression Oro kinda likes us, or well, what passes for that in an old, pragmatic sociopath of an S-rank ninja. As far as respect is concerned, if he didn't respect us even a little, then he'd not exchange notes.
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- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
I broadly agree that we should quickly chain "I have 3D Sealing" into "this is what a rune looks like" and then "here's my price", as we've seen with the dragon parts Orochimaru is most generous when he's nerd-sniped and getting to scrutinize our explosive rune will absolutely nerdsnipe him.
Bringing Naruto and Tsunade in is something I'm less confident about. Yes, it does mean we have Leaf authority backing the deal, and big sis Tsunade ready to punch him if he tries anything, but... so, the one image in my head is Orochimaru being fully willing to cooperate with us and pay out his side of the bargain without any of that, in previous deals. The other image in my head is Orochimaru seeing this new Hokage (who Orochimaru likely doesn't respect all that much: he was already a Sannin when Naruto was in diapers) and squaring up ready to meet pressure with pressure. Not, like, aura-blasting everyone, but treating it like a proper negotiation and properly leveraging his position and the context of the situation.
I should stress this: getting anything good out of Orochimaru hard-requires that he doesn't go "if I say no, would you really jeopardize the world by hoarding your knowledge?" If he says that to us we fold. If he says that to Naruto then our Hokage says "I mean, he's right, this is important". We don't have any true leverage here, and our best result relies on Orochimaru not choosing to exert his own. That's why him being nerd-sniped is useful: it puts him in a mental state where he'd rather pay the inflated price if it means he doesn't have to stop the research. Shake his focus away from that and he'll be far less generous.
Bringing Naruto and Tsunade into the meeting forces Orochimaru to play nice, to give us what he promises and swear to fulfill any obligations he can't immediately give. It's useful, it's valuable. But we're weighing this against the cost of Orochimaru taking the deal more seriously, possibly shaking off his nerd-sniped state and remembering to strike deals that aren't just acceptable but as favourable to him as he can manage.
I feel, in the end, this depends on what we decide to ask out of him. Stuff he can give immediately, maybe we just bargain ourselves. Stuff that requires he make promises, swear oaths, maybe we bring big sis Tsunade along to keep him honest. A question for Mari, imo. The other side of the coin, optimizing with Kabuto, is probably a no-go. Remember when we told him about the dragon part and he just kinda vanished into thin air to go get Oro? Same thing here, almost certainly. "Hey Kabuto I figured out 3D Seali- and he's gone", "Hey Kabuto, what would, hypothetically speaking, Orochimaru be willing to trade in exchange for extremely valuable- and he's gone". Not as dramatized as that, really, but Kabuto will not keep this secret for us when his first priority is bringing stuff like this to Orochimaru.
We could maybe get some last-minute optimizations out of him, but my thoughts again return to the worry of priming Orochimaru beforehand to see this as a negotiation: it's less than telling him "I want to trade" in a letter days ahead of the deal itself, but I'd still personally like to avoid the risk of Kabuto saying "Hazou seems like he wants to buy something from you in exchange for this" and Orochimaru going "hmm yes" and then keeping his guard up during the deal itself. I suppose this is again a question for Mari.
Assuming this all goes right and Orochimaru is successfully distracted by new wonders to dissect by the time we start talking terms, a list of things we'd like is probably the right general approach, though maybe not the ideal approach. It's straightforward and succinct and lets him process and respond fast, which feels like it does the ideal job of not annoying him at this critical moment.
And I'm not all that concerned about Orochimaru plausibly finding a different viable substrate. He still can't probably do anything with it yet, whereas our paradigm can already produce real runes. I can't imagine Orochimaru having progressed so far along the 3D Sealing progress bar that us having completed it won't represent a substantial windfall for his efforts. imo at worst he's like "I've decided that part of my payment to you will be this other substrate I've found" in which case... kinda okay with that, ngl.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We have the conversation with Mari in the room. We make it clear that he isn't leaving in one piece without our say-so: which we'll happily provide after he has a short conversation with us. The path of dramatically least resistance is staying and entertaining a 20-minute conversation which is objectively going to improve the way our chat with Orochimaru goes - something he wants, too. We can potentially entirely skip negotiations and just hand Orochimaru the goods, if Kabuto plays ball.
That's the wrong quest you're playing. Of course we're going to pursue immortality.
- Location
- Not a Burned Down House
I like this plan.
Certainly - outside the scope of the quest unless the QMs attain immortality themselves, as we've been getting roughly 1 year in-story per year irl.
According to Orochimaru Pain was one of the two ninja he's ever witnessed defeating a chakra golem. It's possible he gained the metal from that source.
- Location
- a
That sounds like threatening a Leaf ninja to not leave or else. Like, what are we really gonna do if he call us on it and leave anyways?
I'm starting to have flashbacks of the last time we threatened him AAAAAA.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Fair. Then we can try this.
- Arrange a meeting with Kabuto.
- Ask him to stay seated for the next five minutes.
- Tell him that we've discovered something Orochimaru might want and we'd like to trade a few things for it. We'd like it to go more smoothly than last time.
- Put a list of stuff we want in front of him and ask for opinions about what's trivial for Orochimaru.
- Refuse to explain what it is that we've discovered until he's sat with us for a few minutes.
- Then drop the bomb, see if he re-thinks anything on the list, and presumably he grabs Oro immediately.
Orochimaru doesn't give a shit about what's reasonable. We also have no idea what he was like at 16 in terms of power. I suspect he'd already decided to pursue immorality aggressively, though.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
I am even more hype for trying to kill Oro now. What a challenge! What a puzzle!
Much like with Ami, the only thing that seems even more fun than trying to kill him is befriending him.
Everything else he's likely to give us is basically frippery.
"Let us try to brainwash you into our cult" is something he won't consider a serious price, a place where he'd underestimate us, underestimate the value he'd be providing us. It's a place where we can scam him.
So I'd structure the negotiations with this as the centerpiece; the part we'll actually not budge on.
Much like with Ami, the only thing that seems even more fun than trying to kill him is befriending him.
Still by far my most-preferred option. Important: as part of it, he'll need to commit not to act on any verbal offense we may give, either during the discussions or afterwards, physically or via deliberate Aura abuse.
Everything else he's likely to give us is basically frippery.
- Jutsu, seals, stunts, bioaugmentations:
- He's not going to part with any of his real shinies without, as @Inferno Vulpix outlined here, switching into a serious negotiating mood. And if he does that, our position would be fairly shaky. We can probably extract a shiny or two, but "someone is trying to extract my best tools from me" is likely something he's specifically prepared to guard against. It'd be like pulling teeth. And, like... do we have any actual specific shiny in mind, such that we won't be disappointed afterwards, such that we can definitely guarantee he won't short-change us?
- Conversely, we can likely extract a windfall of lesser tools and weapons, but do we really need them? And, OOC-wise, I fear we'll never actually see any of them – consider the situation with e. g. Jiraiya's seals.
- Protection from Akatsuki, assassinating an Akatsuki: He can barely survive their focused assault himself. He won't want to actively go out of his way to do that. It'll definitely make him switch into "serious negotiations", and then it's plausibly something that's genuinely too much of a cost, compared to just re-inventing lithosealing on his own. (And if we plan to have our negotiations when showing him the 3D seal... well, he'll potentially be able to gather enough data from passive observations that he'd be confident in recreating it on his own.)
- Like, it's something that can actually legitimately kill him in the short-term. I wouldn't take his deal in his place, I wouldn't consider it fair.
- Biosealing apprenticeship: That's a shiny we can reasonably extract from him, yes. But that feels underwhelming, especially considering that we already have a plethora of other projects to spend XP and time on, lithoseals chief among them, and also because we can surely get the stunt from someone else at a lower price. (E. g., Kabuto, or that other biosealer Leaf has.)
"Let us try to brainwash you into our cult" is something he won't consider a serious price, a place where he'd underestimate us, underestimate the value he'd be providing us. It's a place where we can scam him.
So I'd structure the negotiations with this as the centerpiece; the part we'll actually not budge on.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yes, as listed in the post we can get the things Mari told us she is missing
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
The quest started (May 25, 1067 AS) / (December 10, 2015) and it is currently (March 30, 1071) / (December 31, 2023), so it's actually been more like 6 months in-story per 12 months IRL.
I'm confident that not matter what Orochimaru gives you, at least some portion of the players will be disappointed. Reality can never live up to anticipated imagination, so even if we gave you a jutsu that gives 4x AB attack bonus and 2x AB on lithosealing, someone would still go "Pfft. Mid."
I promise you this is not true. Please, please, please give us the S-Tier jutsu. I will be happy forever.
And whenever anyone complains about it, I will climb into their room and log on to their SV account and delete their posts. I promise.
Akatsuki are *much* weaker without Pain and Kakuzu. It's now plausibly within reason for him to kill them with Leaf's backing.
If he can catch three of them teamed up with Sunny? I think he can kill them. He probably can't do all 6 solo. But Pain was their insurance.
Attacking them when they go for the Rift seems like the play. Destroy their defending force and kill anyone who comes out. Or just shut the Rift and let them all die in there.
- Location
- Pacific standard
Y'all still haven't tried going "this thing is allowed to break the setting in one way. We tried to munchkin proof it, but it still feels like there's edge cases where it gets weird. Find one, choose it, and as a community prevent the rest from being broken"
Maybe because it's only a good idea from a player perspective, that could def be it lol. I still wanna try it
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Instead of a biosealing apprenticeship I think we should instead go for a combat apprenticeship.
Noumero
Omit Needless Words
Mmkay, so, here's the deal. I think that negotiating for a chance to brainwash/rehabilitate Oro (in the form of (bi)weekly philosophical discussions during which he isn't allowed to threaten us) is the highest-value thing we can get out of it. I'll outline all my arguments for this below; bear with me for now.
The issue is, I don't think we can get that unless we send Hazou off into the negotiations with the explicit instructions to be willing to compromise on quite a lot of everything else – get worse deals for jutsu/seals, etc. – but not allow Orochimaru to negotiate this term away. My expectations is that, while Orochimaru won't view this as a threat, he'd be fairly annoyed at the idea. He'd also expect that it's something we aren't strongly committed to. So all throughout the negotiations, he'd be weakly trying to fold that term away. We'll need to not let him, which means e. g. waving away offers like "2x as many seals but I don't have to put up with talking to you".
I'd like to get a feel for how willing we are to do that.
My arguments:
1A. S-rankers' minds are easier to change than you think.
Essies systemically suffer from the textbook case of the Dictator's Problem: they end up surrounded by yes-men.
The setting's pressures mold them into temperamental, quirky assholes as they rise to power. Once they're S-rank, other people know to fear them, or to try and get stuff out of them, which means people try to learn their quirks and avoid triggering them. Even fellow S-rankers are like this – after all, pissing off one of the few other people who may be able to kill you is a bad idea. Better play along with their neuroses and get what you want out of them this way, right?
Which means nobody ever pushes back on those neuroses. Anyone who tries, dies, with the essie not paying their blabbering any mind afterwards. And if the irritant is an essie themselves – well, they're probably not pushing back by trying to change your mind, but by flexing their power in an attempt to get their way by force. Alternatively, by manipulating, rather than confronting, your neuroses, the way Ami's always been doing. Genuine attempts to engage are probably extremely rare.
So an essie's life experience involves basically-zero introspective doubt. They could spend a lifetime making decisions that are incoherent and impulsive even by their own standards, and never realize, because no-one would dare or bother to critique them. And this isn't just bad for others, it's bad for them too. This sort of self-ignorance prevents them from achieving their goals; they end up making decisions that they themselves would regret, if someone forced them to view the bigger picture.
Moreover, this setup – this sort of life philosophy that's been insulated from criticism – is necessarily unstable. If anyone does manage to meaningfully engage, they'd likely find the essie's worldview surprisingly moldable. Not trivially and arbitrarily so, but much less implacable than the essie's aura-flexing would suggest.
And we have a case study: Itachi.
Another case study: Hidan. Once we have an in, once he's willing to listen to our bullshit, it's laughably easy to spin up arbitrary frameworks and make him buy them.
1B. Orochimaru's mind, specifically, can be changed.
One of the first things we learned about MfD!Orochimaru is:
And as per 1A, that defence mechanism is likely quite fragile. If we can actually force him to engage with the arguments against his worldview, we should be able to unravel it piece by piece. We'd been able to do that to Mari and Ami, social-specs with highly complicated identity issues. Oro, by comparision, is one of the most narrow-minded essies there are. He's likely surprisingly uncomplicated. If we can get as much information on his interior as we have on Mari's, and get half as many opportunities to work on him?
His mind will be putty in our hands.
2. It'd be insanely valuable.
Orochimaru is one of the strongest ninja characters in the setting, arguably sharing the top spot with Tsunade. He also has a specialization highly compatible with our own. He also has a world-view parts of which are highly compatible with our own – the vision of a deathless world foremost of them. He's also one of the few characters I'd struggle to figure out how to kill.
And right now, he's essentially our enemy. A massive obstacle that we're going to have to deal with sooner or later.
What if we could turn him to our side, however?
In the long-term, that'd be much, much more beneficial than any amount of seals or jutsu he can give us. Primarily, because turning him to our side would effectively give us all of the seals and jutsu he has! Including the S-rank techniques he'd never, ever part with. They won't be given to us personally, maybe, but they'd be made to serve our broad cause.
Right now, he's a massive negative presence in the world, canceling out the world's utility and hindering our plans. Turning him won't simply remove it. It'd flip the sign, transmuting the obstacle of him into an additional engine powering our plans.
Also: Just imagine Ami's face when she shows up again and we're all buddy-buddy with Oro. Just imagine it!
To recap: My suggestion is that, during the lithosealing trade, one of our terms should be "for the next 1-2 years, Orochimaru agrees to (bi)weekly spend 1-2 hours talking to Hazou about philosophy; during these segments, he agrees to genuinely engage with Hazou's thoughts, and not to act on any offence Hazou might give him during that time (i. e., no physical or metaphysical threats)".
I think we'll need to make that one of our core terms. Something Hazou wouldn't easily budge on; something for which he'd be willing to sacrifice significantly better terms for jutsu/seal trade.
Now, impromptu poll. React to this post in order to indicate your opinion.
The issue is, I don't think we can get that unless we send Hazou off into the negotiations with the explicit instructions to be willing to compromise on quite a lot of everything else – get worse deals for jutsu/seals, etc. – but not allow Orochimaru to negotiate this term away. My expectations is that, while Orochimaru won't view this as a threat, he'd be fairly annoyed at the idea. He'd also expect that it's something we aren't strongly committed to. So all throughout the negotiations, he'd be weakly trying to fold that term away. We'll need to not let him, which means e. g. waving away offers like "2x as many seals but I don't have to put up with talking to you".
I'd like to get a feel for how willing we are to do that.
My arguments:
1A. S-rankers' minds are easier to change than you think.
Essies systemically suffer from the textbook case of the Dictator's Problem: they end up surrounded by yes-men.
The setting's pressures mold them into temperamental, quirky assholes as they rise to power. Once they're S-rank, other people know to fear them, or to try and get stuff out of them, which means people try to learn their quirks and avoid triggering them. Even fellow S-rankers are like this – after all, pissing off one of the few other people who may be able to kill you is a bad idea. Better play along with their neuroses and get what you want out of them this way, right?
Which means nobody ever pushes back on those neuroses. Anyone who tries, dies, with the essie not paying their blabbering any mind afterwards. And if the irritant is an essie themselves – well, they're probably not pushing back by trying to change your mind, but by flexing their power in an attempt to get their way by force. Alternatively, by manipulating, rather than confronting, your neuroses, the way Ami's always been doing. Genuine attempts to engage are probably extremely rare.
So an essie's life experience involves basically-zero introspective doubt. They could spend a lifetime making decisions that are incoherent and impulsive even by their own standards, and never realize, because no-one would dare or bother to critique them. And this isn't just bad for others, it's bad for them too. This sort of self-ignorance prevents them from achieving their goals; they end up making decisions that they themselves would regret, if someone forced them to view the bigger picture.
Moreover, this setup – this sort of life philosophy that's been insulated from criticism – is necessarily unstable. If anyone does manage to meaningfully engage, they'd likely find the essie's worldview surprisingly moldable. Not trivially and arbitrarily so, but much less implacable than the essie's aura-flexing would suggest.
And we have a case study: Itachi.
Pretty much exactly what I'd like to pull on Oro. Except without limiting our push-back to just one conversation; but to a whole series of them.
Another case study: Hidan. Once we have an in, once he's willing to listen to our bullshit, it's laughably easy to spin up arbitrary frameworks and make him buy them.
1B. Orochimaru's mind, specifically, can be changed.
One of the first things we learned about MfD!Orochimaru is:
The Shed Skins interlude offers some more context, painting the picture of someone who'd started off intensely empathetic ("I had a personal failing of character during the vivisection and prematurely terminated the subject..."), and then carved away pieces of that empathy as a self-defence mechanism from witnessing constant tragedy and failure ("... I have identified the problem and will do better in the future").
And as per 1A, that defence mechanism is likely quite fragile. If we can actually force him to engage with the arguments against his worldview, we should be able to unravel it piece by piece. We'd been able to do that to Mari and Ami, social-specs with highly complicated identity issues. Oro, by comparision, is one of the most narrow-minded essies there are. He's likely surprisingly uncomplicated. If we can get as much information on his interior as we have on Mari's, and get half as many opportunities to work on him?
His mind will be putty in our hands.
2. It'd be insanely valuable.
Orochimaru is one of the strongest ninja characters in the setting, arguably sharing the top spot with Tsunade. He also has a specialization highly compatible with our own. He also has a world-view parts of which are highly compatible with our own – the vision of a deathless world foremost of them. He's also one of the few characters I'd struggle to figure out how to kill.
And right now, he's essentially our enemy. A massive obstacle that we're going to have to deal with sooner or later.
What if we could turn him to our side, however?
In the long-term, that'd be much, much more beneficial than any amount of seals or jutsu he can give us. Primarily, because turning him to our side would effectively give us all of the seals and jutsu he has! Including the S-rank techniques he'd never, ever part with. They won't be given to us personally, maybe, but they'd be made to serve our broad cause.
Right now, he's a massive negative presence in the world, canceling out the world's utility and hindering our plans. Turning him won't simply remove it. It'd flip the sign, transmuting the obstacle of him into an additional engine powering our plans.
Also: Just imagine Ami's face when she shows up again and we're all buddy-buddy with Oro. Just imagine it!
To recap: My suggestion is that, during the lithosealing trade, one of our terms should be "for the next 1-2 years, Orochimaru agrees to (bi)weekly spend 1-2 hours talking to Hazou about philosophy; during these segments, he agrees to genuinely engage with Hazou's thoughts, and not to act on any offence Hazou might give him during that time (i. e., no physical or metaphysical threats)".
I think we'll need to make that one of our core terms. Something Hazou wouldn't easily budge on; something for which he'd be willing to sacrifice significantly better terms for jutsu/seal trade.
Now, impromptu poll. React to this post in order to indicate your opinion.
- Insightful = "I agree that we should make this the core term of our deal."
- Like = "I agree that we should push for this hard, but it should have a lower priority than one (1) other term I have in mind."
- Informative = "I'm willing to throw it in, but not to compromise on anything concrete for that."
- Funny = "I don't care for this idea at all."