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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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DanZapman said:
Hazo's current injury is unrelated to anything I said.
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It is though. If Hazou can perform Sealing : Jounin+ while at the figurative wheelchair, it would be plain to see for any Sealmaster (someone who can recognize how crippling a state it is) that once he stops being at the figurative wheelchair, he will be capable of Sealing : Jiraiya.

We have to assume bare minimum goodwill from Akatsuki, because if they don't even accept that debilitating injuries impede Sealing performance then a show of skill or lack thereof would be an exercise in futility anyway.
 
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Noumero said:
Oh yeah by the way, we are all aware that Sasori is going to inevitably figure out Hazou's Out-Touched Genius aspect (unless we spend the entire time sandbagging), and then vivisect him to figure out what the hell is up with him? Yes? Okay, good.

If Gai was an unknown, and some passing essie challenged him to a spar while he was recovering (and the injury wasn't as obvious as a wheelchair), and then Gai ignobly lost it? Yeah, he ain't getting no respect from that essie, nor from any onlookers. He'll have lost, and that's all that matters.

And in this case it's more like the wheelchair-bound Gai is challenging the essie to a spar, but asks to be understanding of his injuries and so adjust the expectations accordingly. Which would just look pathetic.

This isn't really about Sasori recognizing a peer sealmaster, it's about Sasori not wanting to acknowledge Hazou as a peer, so that he's able to establish more dominance in the relationship. Regardless of how good Hazou is, it'd be ideal for Sasori if Hazou really did accept just being a lab assistant who does what's told and doesn't question him. To resist that, we need to make trying to establish this dynamic laughably unfair. Sasori might or might not still try to enforce it based on superior personal power, but in that case at least everyone would know it's a sham, and we'd have more room for maneuver with regards to upturning it.

So Sasori would try to make his best to make it look to everyone — to the other Akatsuki, to himself, and to Hazou — that he's leagues ahead of Hazou as a sealmaster, so he can relegate Hazou to a purely subordinate position. We don't want that.
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This is why give Sasori the opportunity to see the first Rune being made in centuries. Yeah our stats are lower than usual, but we have a fricken legendary version of sealing

"Tell the rest of the Akatsuki that I'm in charge of the necromancy project and I'll teach you how to make three dimensional seals, when I have time.

I also want to learn about your puppetry business but even I have a sense of timing."
 
Crunbum said:
It is though. If Hazou can perform Sealing : Jounin+ while at the figurative wheelchair, it would be plain to see for any Sealmaster (someone who can recognize how crippling a state it is) that once he stops being at the figurative wheelchair, he will be capable of Sealing : Jiraiya.
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To clarify something I think might have gotten mixed up- I was discussing prior knowledge since that was how you opened the discussion with Hazo's preexisting reputation as a sealmaster. You're now discussing theoretical future evaluation of Hazo, right? I agree that these are different things and Hazo is likely to be capable of impressing Sasori if they interact on good terms in person. I don't think Hazo's current reputation is enough to make Sasori think he's an amazing sealmaster before they meet since most of his most visible work has been as an ideas guy.

edit: typo
 
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DanZapman said:
To clarify something I think might have gotten mixed up- I was discussing prior knowledge since that was how you opened the discussion with Hazo's preexisting reputation as a sealmaster. You're now discussing theoretical future evaluation of Hazo, right? I agree that these are different things and Hazo is likely to be capable of meeting Sasori if they interact on good terms in person. I don't think Hazo's current reputation is enough to make Sasori think he's an amazing sealmaster before they meet since most of his most visible work has been as an ideas guy.
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Fair, but while lots of our former work is based on creativity, the results (revolutionized ninja warfare, killed Dragons and Essies with his toys) speak for themselves, and we do have things hinting as to our actual skill (Made Sealing Jounin by 16, designed multiple custom Jounin-tier Seals within 4 years of Academy Graduation, exchanged S-rank Sealing correspondence with Orochimaru). Mind you, all that is last year.

And then we also have 3D Sealing to show off... which I believe we have to share if we go the Rain route, because if we don't then we can never actually level it under Akatsuki's gaze, and we will be under constant survelliance. Also, it is very likely to be very useful to Project Necromancy, so concealing it is not trying our best, and I believe we do want to save Akane and Jiraiya and also accrue the trust of Akatsuki and future sway over Nagato, and credibly helping their efforts by sharing 3D Sealing with them would be a big step towards all of these.
 
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It would be difficult to join Akatsuki and use 3DSeals without informing them. I would rather at least not have Akatsuki be the first others we teach (Kagome still deserves it), but my overall preference is to stay in Leaf if possible. All that said, if we end up joining I'd be willing to feel things out for how reasonable sharing it would be.
 
Noumero said:
I would prefer not to leak that. Also, we still haven't infused even one lithoseal.
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Hmmm, why? If we're joining Akatsuki (honestly, and not with plans to try and kamikaze Sasori) then our endgame is to empower Pain and Akatsuki to enforce world peace, no? Not to mention the way it'll help the Great Seal project for more people to have worked on the field and expanded overall understanding of what it can do. I've been ready to sell lithosealing to Orochimaru for those same reasons, and I can't really see why selling it to Sasori would be forbidden.

Lithosealing isn't a secret that easily spreads, mind. Of all of Akatsuki, only Sasori even plausibly has the chops to learn it, and I'd bet he doesn't even have Earthshaping, let alone high enough Earthshaping to actually learn the discipline. (he might not even have Earth Element, though admittedly that one's more unknowable). The Akatsuki are also remarkably good at keeping their personal secrets, so it's unlikely for lithosealing to breach OPSEC beyond the bounds of Akatsuki.

I understand if you want to keep it in reserve for a potential kamikaze doublecross (though I question how much lithotech we could develop in such a working environment without them learning of it), but if we're earnestly joining them and aiming for an aligned-Pain endstate then I feel no reason to hold back our mythical-level achievement when sharing it advances our Dragonwar goals and helps us get the respect we need.
 
Twinnstars said:
This is why give Sasori the opportunity to see the first Rune being made in centuries. Yeah our stats are lower than usual, but we have a fricken legendary version of sealing

"Tell the rest of the Akatsuki that I'm in charge of the necromancy project and I'll teach you how to make three dimensional seals, when I have time.

I also want to learn about your puppetry business but even I have a sense of timing."
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An intriguing approach. Maybe.
Inferno Vulpix said:
Hmmm, why?
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Mostly because I want to keep the "kamikaze Sasori" option open.

But fair arguments. Point taken.
Crunbum said:
I mean sure, if Sasori wants to be a dick and lowball Hazou's ability and ignore the fact that he is severely injured impeding it massively, he could do that.
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Alright, lemme roll out my whole model.

Absent all knowledge of the particulars of Sasori's personality, I expect him to have pride in himself and his skills, and to want to be respected for it. Absent all knowledge of the particulars of inter-Akatsuki relationships, I expect them to care about how the other Akatsuki view them, and about their relative status within the group.

Thus, I expect that Sasori would have the following distribution of desires, as far as Hazou is concerned:
  • He would like Hazou to be as skilled as possible, because that would be directly helpful.
  • He would like to have an accurate estimate of Hazou's skills, so he can use him better.
  • He would like to think that he's more skilled than Hazou, to preserve his ego.
  • He would like other Akatsuki members to think that he is more skilled than Hazou, to preserve his group status instead of leaving himself open to ribbing (which may start good-natured, but leave yourself open too many times, and it'd turn into actual mockery).
  • He would like Hazou to think that he is more skilled than Hazou, in order to ensure that Hazou faithfully obeys him.
In other words: he would like to be an efficient agent (desires 1-2) while winning the status game (desires 3-5). In such situations, doublethink becomes paramount.

Humans are not holistic inference engines; different and mutually contradictory beliefs can be strategically cultivated at a subconscious level, and stably hold for a while. It is entirely possible for Sasori to arrive at an accurate causal model of Hazou's skill (in terms of what projects he could be expected to complete) while retaining the belief that Sasori is the superior sealmaster, even if Hazou is actually better. It's likewise possible to cultivate similar beliefs in Hazou. Once those goals are achieved, retaining the status of the superior sealmaster among the Akatsuki is accomplished by itself. Crucially, he would not even need to lie to them, or actively misrepresent himself (which he would likely consider beneath him, and is likely to be detected) — everyone will act naturally, it's just that their beliefs about the world will have been subcionsciously biased in ways strategically advantageous to Sasori.

Note that, despite the language I'm using, I'm not modeling everyone involved as a sociopath coldly calculating every utterance. As I'd empathized, most of that would be happening at the subconscious level.
  • When Orochimaru dismissed Hazou's skill, it's not that he recognized Hazou as superior but decided to play it off, consciously choosing to misrepresent himself. It's that he has pre-built instincts like "be prideful" and "act like everyone else is beneath you", which evolved as the result of a long life trying to win power games and social conflicts. These instincts went into effect there, and he deceived even himself. Note also that this was likely not an all-encompassing self-deception: he doesn't now think Hazou is incompetent, he knows what Hazou can do in practical terms. He just doesn't mentally connect that with "he's better than me".
  • Similarly, when Kiba ribbed Hazou about bribing the Hokage to get his spec-jounin rank, it's not that he sociopathically tracked the flow of social power and status, recognized that Hazou was attempting to claim more of it, and attempted to push back on that by belittling or dismissing it. But he has instincts that would activate in such situations to "playfully" test boundaries, and if the attempt were successful — if Hazou failed to push back, if he'd established that it's possible to question the legitimacy of Hazou's ability and get away with it — Kiba will have likely subconsciously felt compelled to engage in a prolonged campaign of escalating ribbing, until it turned into actual mockery. And at no point in that would he need to actually believe, on a level that'd translate into concrete actions, that Hazou bribed the Hokage — i. e., he won't have actually tried to expose the supposed bribery, because part of him would've known it didn't happen.
This whole mess is the basis on which social hierarchies are built and on which they function.

So. As far as Sasori, when taken as a whole, as both a person and a mess of subconscious political instincts, is concerned, it's paramount that Hazou is socially established as the inferior sealmaster, regardless of whatever skills he has. This needs not mean actually underestimating his capabilities, or misusing him as a resource — it merely requires establishing the perception of this to everyone (himself, and Hazou, and the other Akatsuki).

You're right that, as far as actual physical interactions go, Sasori would be able to force Hazou to do anything, regardless of Hazou's skill level. But this creates a bunch of problems:
  • It would hurt Sasori's ego, to acknowledge someone as else as intellectually superior, and to only be able to dominate them by physical power.
  • It would hurt Sasori's standing among the other Akatsuki. A barely-adult chuunin is better than him at his own discipline! (And it would start as playful ribbing, yes, but as I'd mentioned, and as I'd tried to illustrate in Kiba's example, that sort of ribbing can grow into actual mockery if he lets it happen too often.)
  • It would make Hazou uncooperative: if he's aware he's being unfairly forced into a subordinate position, he'll push back, he won't be compliant, he'll be annoying to interact with, etc.
This also creates an opportunity for us. There's a complex interplay of status games here. If we're able to utterly dominate the interaction — to show that Hazou is genuinely superior, in a way that can't be dismissed by Sasori no matter how hard his instincts try, in a way that becomes apparent to the other Akatsuki members — then we'd be able to grab ourselves some group status by effectively cannibalising Sasori's. In physical terms, yes, they'd still be able to force him into anything. But to do that in too overt a manner would hurt their standing with the other Akatsuki.

Hidan aside, some of them pretend at being professional and civilized and reasonable. If Hazou forces them to recognize himself as a peer, they likely won't feel adequate just ordering him around — it'd hurt their self-images, and hurt the social images they try to project to each other.

Hence, what I expect to happen is Sasori immediately acting to demolish Hazou's status as a good sealmaster, moved by his political instincts; and that's why "but I'm injured" would sound like pathetic whining that's going to lose us this battle; and why I care about winning this battle.
 
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Hello everyone!
I probably already asked this at some point but is there a list of the chapters in which Hazo has his mind affected by the seal failures?
I remember really looking forward to them, like the one in which he tries to describe his relationship with Akane.
 
Noumero said:
Alright, lemme roll out my whole model.

Absent all knowledge of the particulars of Sasori's personality, I expect him to have pride in himself and his skills, and to want to be respected for it. Absent all knowledge of the particulars of inter-Akatsuki relationships, I expect them to care about how the other Akatsuki view them, and about their relative status within the group.

Thus, I expect that Sasori would have the following distribution of desires, as far as Hazou is concerned:
  • He would like Hazou to be as skilled as possible, because that would be directly helpful.
  • He would like to have an accurate estimate of Hazou's skills, so he can use him better.
  • He would like to think that he's more skilled than Hazou, to preserve his ego.
  • He would like other Akatsuki members to think that he is more skilled than Hazou, to preserve his group status instead of leaving himself open to ribbing (which may start good-natured, but leave yourself open too many times, and it'd turn into actual mockery).
  • He would like Hazou to think that he is more skilled than Hazou, in order to ensure that Hazou faithfully obeys him.
In other words: he would like to be an efficient agent (desires 1-2) while winning the status game (desires 3-5). In such situations, doublethink becomes paramount.

Humans are not holistic inference engines; different and mutually contradictory beliefs can be strategically cultivated at a subconscious level, and stably hold for a while. It is entirely possible for Sasori to arrive at an accurate causal model of Hazou's skill (in terms of what projects he could be expected to complete) while retaining the belief that Sasori is the superior sealmaster, even if Hazou is actually better. It's likewise possible to cultivate similar beliefs in Hazou. Once those goals are achieved, retaining the status of the superior sealmaster among the Akatsuki is accomplished by itself. Crucially, he would not even need to lie to them, or actively misrepresent himself (which he would likely consider beneath him, and is likely to be detected) — everyone will act naturally, it's just that their beliefs about the world will have been subcionsciously biased in ways strategically advantageous to Sasori.

Note that, despite the language I'm using, I'm not modeling everyone involved as a sociopath coldly calculating every utterance. As I'd empathized, most of that would be happening at the subconscious level.
  • When Orochimaru dismissed Hazou's skill, it's not that he recognized Hazou as superior but decided to play it off, consciously choosing to misrepresent himself. It's that he has pre-built instincts like "be prideful" and "act like everyone else is beneath you", which evolved as the result of a long life trying to win power games and social conflicts. These instincts went into effect there, and he deceived even himself. Note also that this was likely not an all-encompassing self-deception: he doesn't now think Hazou is incompetent, he knows what Hazou can do in practical terms. He just doesn't mentally connect that with "he's better than me".
  • Similarly, when Kiba ribbed Hazou about bribing the Hokage to get his spec-jounin rank, it's not that he sociopathically tracked the flow of social power and status, recognized that Hazou was attempting to claim more of it, and attempted to push back on that by belittling or dismissing it. But he has instincts that would activate in such situations to "playfully" test boundaries, and if the attempt were successful — if Hazou failed to push back, if he'd established that it's possible to question the legitimacy of Hazou's ability and get away with it — Kiba will have likely subconsciously felt compelled to engage in a prolonged campaign of escalating ribbing, until it turned into actual mockery. And at no point in that would he need to actually believe, on a level that'd translate into concrete actions, that Hazou bribed the Hokage — i. e., he won't have actually tried to expose the supposed bribery, because part of him would've known it didn't happen.
This whole mess is the basis on which social hierarchies are built and on which they function.

So. As far as Sasori, when taken as a whole, as both a person and a mess of subconscious political instincts, is concerned, it's paramount that Hazou is socially established as the inferior sealmaster, regardless of whatever skills he has. This needs not mean actually underestimating his capabilities, or misusing him as a resource — it merely requires establishing the perception of this to everyone (himself, and Hazou, and the other Akatsuki).

You're right that, as far as actual physical interactions go, Sasori would be able to force Hazou to do anything, regardless of Hazou's skill level. But this creates a bunch of problems:
  • It would hurt Sasori's ego, to acknowledge someone as else as intellectually superior, and to only be able to dominate them by physical power.
  • It would hurt Sasori's standing among the other Akatsuki. A barely-adult chuunin is better than him at his own discipline! (And it would start as playful ribbing, yes, but as I'd mentioned, and as I'd tried to illustrate in Kiba's example, that sort of ribbing can grow into actual mockery if he lets it happen too often.)
  • It would make Hazou uncooperative: if he's aware he's being unfairly forced into a subordinate position, he'll push back, he won't be compliant, he'll be annoying to interact with, etc.
This also creates an opportunity for us. There's a complex interplay of status games here. If we're able to utterly dominate the interaction — to show that Hazou is genuinely superior, in a way that can't be dismissed by Sasori no matter how hard his instincts try, in a way that becomes apparent to the other Akatsuki members — then we'd be able to grab ourselves some group status by effectively cannibalising Sasori's. In physical terms, yes, they'd still be able to force him into anything. But to do that in too overt a manner would hurt their standing with the other Akatsuki.

Hidan aside, some of them pretend at being professional and civilized and reasonable. If Hazou forces them to recognize himself as a peer, they likely won't feel adequate just ordering him around — it'd hurt their self-images, and hurt the social images they try to project to each other.

Hence, what I expect to happen is Sasori immediately acting to demolish Hazou's status as a good sealmaster, moved by his political instincts; and that's why "but I'm injured" would sound like pathetic whining that's going to lose us this battle; and why I care about winning this battle.
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I see.. its not that our models differ, its that you set a... very ambitious goal for Hazou there. With the mindset of proving himself as the superior Sealmaster to Akatsuki, our injuries are indeed ruinous a prospect.

I'm not sure it would be a realistic goal even if we were completely healthy, though? I dont think we are a superior sealmaster to Orochimaru, just a peer, and I think the same would hold true for Sasori, unless we got the +8 levels possible without upping the Sealing pyramid tier. As I see things, if we cannot prove ourselves unequivocally superior to Sasori in skill, then we do not hurt his ego nearly as much and thus lose a lot less social capital by being injured during the interaction than we would have if we could, also because we dont have as much to gain. If we were healthy we could be gunning to impress here with great rolls, but with a Severe that is not possible, and fundamentally we have to play the hand we are dealt.

But - we can share 3D Sealing. That is unique and valuable towards Project Necromancy and proves our worth to Akatsuki and Sasori both, and without undercutting his own status at that - we do not come out of the interaction as better or worse than him, regardless of our injuries - but simply different. Different and extraordinarily useful. Plus, if we willingly share it outright, we build trust. Trust which we desperately need to build any social capital within Akatsuki and further our goals. Furthermore if we do not share Lithosealing, then we cannot level it as we will be under surveillance and working on projects together with Sasori. So, I believe we should share it - if we choise to cooperate with Akatsuki then we should try our genuine best to make things happen and help as much as possible. Even everything else aside - sharing the shiny gives us a way to meaningfully contribute before we recover from the Severe which is imo crucial to establish our standing as more than Sasori's lapdog. It would also buy us time and capital to try and establish our Sealing prowess as superior in the eyes of Akatsuki once we actually recover and buy a few levels on top. We would still be cannibalizing Sasori's role within the group and the status that comes with it - just not immediately, and the gradual transition would even ease Sasori into it, allowing us to avoid antagonizing him in the process. Let me know what you think.
 
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Crunbum said:
its not that our models differ, its that you set a... very ambitious goal you for Hazou there
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Oh yeah, I tend to do that.
I dont think we are a superior sealmaster to Orochimaru, just a peer
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Orochimaru is spread thin across Sealing, Medical Ninjutsu, and Technique Hacking. I think Hazou is superior to him in raw Sealing.

I concur that maybe not to Sasori. I expect that we're at least a peer, though; and by burning FP and Aspects on the challenges he poses, we should be able to firmly establish that. Edit: Also, this is where the age would be relevant — to be Sasori's peer while being much younger than him would still paint Hazou as superior in an important sense.
But - we can share 3D Sealing
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Yeah, between you and @Twinnstars and @Inferno Vulpix, I've been now convinced it's a good play.
 
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Crunbum said:
- It lets us focus solely on Sealing (and 3D Sealing) without Clan Head distractions or being subject to Sasori's whims, which presents the fastest available route to personal power, and the stronger we get, the more our personal agency matters to Akatsuki and everyone else in the setting.
- It directs our full efforts towards stopping an impeding apocalypse, one that needs stopping, mind you. If we work on Necromancy, we are betting on resurrecting Nagato etc and then dealing with the Dragons afterwards. What if they escape in the meantime? We are a key player in making the Dragonwar happen and fixing the Seal, if we "bail", then chances are the whole thing will fail and it might be too late then.
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There's always the much simpler option of abdicating but staying in Leaf.

And I'd rather not vote for Hazō to torpedo his life for the purely OOC consideration of not enjoying to read about his current job. It just feels wrong. Akin to voting to deliberately make enemies and stir up drama to make things more interesting.

roobee said:
I meant convince the clan heads to oppose tsunade declaring hazou missing nin, or punishing the goketsu clan. If they don't believe in resurrection, that actually makes it easier.
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Wait, who does the convincing in this scenario?

Like, there are 19 distinct people with the right to vote in the Clan Council. How do you propose to convince more than half of them that Hazō joining Akatsuki is okay, actually? Enough so that they are willing to defy the Hokage on the very day of her election. Significantly more than half, because Leaf is actually still a dictatorship and the checks and balances that the Council is a part of are informal.

I feel like you haven't thought this through. At all.


MinTaxer said:
Thesis: Accepting Itachi's offer to join Akatsuki at this time gives us the highest probability of winning MFD in the long term.
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Leaf losing a war is not in and of itself a complete game over.

MinTaxer said:
I think the best way to sell this to the council is ask Itachi to demand we accompany him as a hostage/assistant. He can say our dimensionalism knowledge is too dangerous, or he requires our assistance with a unspecified project for a certain period of time, or Sasori demands us as one of the bloodline ninja, whatever will be believed by everyone besides Shikamaru.
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I like these. The tendency of Leaf Clan Heads to throw us under the bus actually works in our favor here. But can we both fake being unwilling and discourage the rest of our family from going Pretty Damn Far™ to get us back?
Twinnstars said:
On convincing Tsunade:
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I really feel like you are just ignoring any and all characterization or setting relevant cultural details here. For the life of me I can't see anyone at all agreeing to this, except maybe Ami and Kei.

MinTaxer said:
To your before point, I misread "Leaf fellows" as family, so true. Oro contact is much less likely to be allowed. Plausibly it could be negotiated for as part of the overall bargain, under supervision of course.
Edit: Also, a good point I hadn't considered. Presumably rest of Akatsuki could overrule him for resurrections purposes though?
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Just how desperate do you think that Itachi and the rest of Akatsuki are to recruit Hazō? I would be surprised of we can squeeze any concessions out of Itachi that don't involve first convincing him that its a good idea all on its own.
Inferno Vulpix said:
(honestly, and not with plans to try and kamikaze Sasori)
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Even if we join dishonestly and with plans to try and kamikaze Sasori I would still want to reveal 3D sealing to him. The only way we pull of a kamikaze maneuver is if Sasori trusts Hazō and Hazō doesn't show any sign of treachery. For us to pull that off, Hazō cannot know about the plan. He has to be a perfect sleeper agent, merrily working towards Nagato's resurrection to the best of his ability until we flip a switch in his hivemind connection. Hell, we might even have to test our ability to overwrite/strongly influence the Hazō-pilot at a moment's notice.
 
Rafin said:
Like, there are 19 distinct people with the right to vote in the Clan Council. How do you propose to convince more than half of them that Hazō joining Akatsuki is okay, actually? Enough so that they are willing to defy the Hokage on the very day of her election. Significantly more than half, because Leaf is actually still a dictatorship and the checks and balances that the Council is a part of are informal.
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Wouldn't the traditionalists be all for it because they hate Hazo for being an outsider? Either they get us what we want, or we get a heartwarming scene where they admit through clenched teeth that Hazo is a part of Leaf, and they don't want him to leave.
 
RoadWild said:
Wouldn't the traditionalists be all for it because they hate Hazo for being an outsider? Either they get us what we want, or we get a heartwarming scene where they admit through clenched teeth that Hazo is a part of Leaf, and they don't want him to leave.
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That's not how conservative hardliner political opponents have ever worked in my experience. Hazō would just be a traitor twice over, proving them obviously right.
 
Dorian said:
Hello everyone!
I probably already asked this at some point but is there a list of the chapters in which Hazo has his mind affected by the seal failures?
I remember really looking forward to them, like the one in which he tries to describe his relationship with Akane.
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Hello, welcome to the Quest! ^.^

I'm not sure off the top of my head, but @faflec might know?
 
CaramilkThief said:
Kagome told us that we could explore other approaches for rift opening/closing/exploring. Here's a few that we could throw research days into and some possible veterancy chains:
  • Seal that detects storage seals around it
    • Could be followed by seal that detects rifts around it. Will probably be even more sensitive than chakrascope. Test near old sealing failure sites?
    • Followed by seal that detects summoning, both normal and reverse summoning. Idea here is to detect different types of rifts.
    • Finally have a seal that can give us a unique identifier for the pure lands as a dimension. I don't know how but we want a way to "aim" there.
  • Seal that interacts with storage seals around it.
    • If we can detect storage seals, we may be able to interact with them. Maybe autonomously open storage seals in the nearest "valid" space?
    • Maybe use SSA while summoning or reverse summoning to understand the mechanism better? No way this goes badly :V
    • Try opening a "rift" to a storage seal. We know the pure lands rift was opened by a reverse storage seal effect, we want to control that effect. Is it possible to control it, or do it in a non-sealing-failure way? Probably very dangerous.
  • Main idea is to combine the detection of the naraka path and the opening of the rift together. Possibly even harder than reopening the rift lol.
Anyways, some random musings. I know we'll be busy with the Akatsuki thing for the next few updates, just wanted to let these thoughts percolate while we do that.
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This is suddenly very relevant as an alternative pathway forward for opening rifts. Thank you for brainstorming this up @CaramilkThief . Lithoseal chakrascopes derivatives seem to be the most apt seals to work with here. I also think getting diagnostic data on storage seal variants (Isan) might help as well.

Paperclipped said:
Sarubetsu & Isan seals:
The junior sealmasters are very busy dealing with the Seal Bank. However, Kazushi is very excited to do anything remotely resembling sealing research after days of scribing, and gladly takes on the challenge.
  • Kazushi thinks the two seal elements Hazō reproduces from Shintarō's shop are components of a larger array, and there may have been other elements in the array that Hazō didn't get to see. He thinks the seals are chūnin-level, but it'll be much harder to reverse engineer them without the full array if it is possible at all.
  • Kazushi also observes that the seals Hazō reproduces from the Yoshida to be derived from an oddly homogenous sealing tradition. Hazō managed to copy seven seal designs total – one of which Kazushi identifies as an explosive seal, and the other two Kazushi identifies as variants on a storage seal. Of the remaining four, Kazushi thinks they're probably all genin-level.
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I don't think we have to throw in the towel on the rift just yet. Yes, our dimensional notes were taken but I don't think it was actually everything Hazou-pilot would fully realize. The Isan and Sarubetsu seals might have accidentally been left behind since we didn't place much value in them. Pawning them off to Kazushi might be a minor or major boon depending on the properties of said seals.

I'd advocate for knocking these out quickly with Kazushi and Kagome at the earliest time we can do research. Two variants on storage seals sounds interesting enough. Regardless, I think the necromancy rift race is still on despite this major setback and our chances of overcoming Sasori arent quite as dire.
 
@Velorien @eaglejarl @Paperclipped
Now that Asuma is dead, is there anything that Asuma should have already given to us based on simulationism but we haven't gotten yet due to QM spoon requirements?

I am specifically thinking on accumulated lore from both the Leaf affiliated Summon Clans and from mindraping and looting Isan before nuking it.
 
RoadWild said:
Chapter 94 and 95. 424 and the next chapter as well. both have that. I don't remember when Hazo got SSA but that would count too.
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RandomOTP said:
Hello, welcome to the Quest! ^.^

I'm not sure off the top of my head, but @faflec might know?
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faflec said:
*sigh*

Read chapters starting from here and here; they're when Hazou gets his mind scrambled.
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Thanks a lot! 😁
 
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I'm too sleep-deprived today to write up a full plan of my own, but having taken all the above discussion into consideration this is what I would ideally like a plan to include:
  1. Discuss Pain's philosophy and goals in more detail
  2. Outline our role in the Dragonwar and the importance that we remain capable of meaningful contribution
  3. Ask if there is a way for Hazou to join without compromising the Dragonwar
  4. If yes, agree
  5. If no, decline, but also make one request. When Pain's back and world peace is secured, when it's safe to start resurrecting more people, please save Hazou's family. They're the reason we started working on this in the first place, after all.
Overall I think this covers everything I want out of the next update. The conditionals it sets up ensures I would feel we had made the right choice wrt accepting/declining no matter the outcome, and the other components help make the plan productive for reasons beyond that. Even if we decline in the end, we would have gotten a proper discussion on Pain's goals (incredibly relevant no matter the route), potentially increased Akatsuki buy-in for the Dragonwar, and increased odds that Akane and Jiraiya get rezzed even if we lose the necromancy race. I think everything in here is agreeable enough that a well-phrased plan would have minimal risk of offending Itachi, and I would be willing to vote for a plan that achieves these things.
 
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